Author Topic: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?  (Read 8588 times)

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Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2011, 02:49:23 pm »
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Polearms have a crushthrough weapon. Really weird in the other thread where a polespammer complains about crushthrough but forgets he has his own boulder on a stick weapon.

Wow Ganon how pathetic can you be? Are you devoid of all intellectual capabilities to even grasp the most simple concepts?

Boulder on a Stick is a properly balanced weapon - it offers something but has huge disadvantage. As a matter of fact Boulder is worthless. It's very bad weapon, it's worse than ALL crush through weapons. If you stop being so blindly emotional all the time maybe you would get what people are trying to say. I am not against crush-through mechanic, I merely think it needs serious drawbacks that Mauls and Boulder have, otherwise the potential for abuse or abuse itself is always there and it doesn't add anything to gameplay enjoyment or tactics.


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Offline Punisher

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2011, 05:18:02 pm »
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The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.

+1

Either remove stun effect from polearms or give 2H weapons the same ability.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 05:19:19 pm by Punisher »

Offline Christo

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2011, 06:20:20 pm »
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First off, your title is wrong, , when I last played the game, throwing was seriously overpowered, while melee weapons got a huge nerf. There are already enough backpedaling shield/1h/thrower guys around here.

Also, you have problems with a spammer? Spammers are players who won't block no matter what. I think you've got the meaning wrong.
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Offline Punisher

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2011, 06:22:08 pm »
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Also, you have problems with a spammer? Spammers are players who won't block no matter what. I think you've got the meaning wrong.

No he didn't, polearm spammers are the hardest to counter because polearms have a stun effect (even the ones that deal cut damage) and once stunned you can only swing back if you block the attacker twice in a row.

Offline Christo

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2011, 06:35:51 pm »
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Well, I'm a polearm user, some may call me a spammer, but I don't care.
If it bugs you, I don't mind if the stun effect gets removed. I'll use a polearm with my main 'till death.  :wink:

Btw, Why is everything getting nerfed except backpedaling throwers?
I want a damage decrease. kthx
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 06:37:35 pm by Christo »
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Offline bruce

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2011, 11:59:19 pm »
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Afaik all heavier weapons when striking a lighter weapon can stun the lighter weapon.

Polearms are as a rule heavier then 2h swords.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:18:27 am by bruce »
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2011, 12:13:27 am »
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The stun on pole arm is the one thing that makes them competitive wit 2h's far faster animations.

Its hard to face a pole arms spammer with a 1h'er especially if your a shielder and they're using an anti shield weapon but you're probably forgetting that pole arms are designed to counter your build.  Just as you can counter archers...

When it comes to 2h vs pole arms there so little difference between them except that 2h's work better in smaller spaces with more fluid animations which are faster where as pole arms have a stun to give them an advantage if they land the first hit.
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Offline Harafat

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2011, 12:27:49 am »
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The stun on pole arm is the one thing that makes them competitive wit 2h's far faster animations.

Its hard to face a pole arms spammer with a 1h'er especially if your a shielder and they're using an anti shield weapon but you're probably forgetting that pole arms are designed to counter your build.  Just as you can counter archers...

When it comes to 2h vs pole arms there so little difference between them except that 2h's work better in smaller spaces with more fluid animations which are faster where as pole arms have a stun to give them an advantage if they land the first hit.

me agrees, this pretty much sums it up. And again, feeling outspammed? Get more agi and wpf!


Offline cutsomecheesewithmybow

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2011, 04:45:11 am »
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Afaik all heavier weapons when striking a lighter weapon can stun the lighter weapon.

Polearms are as a rule heavier then 2h swords.

well bec is lighter than sword of war
elegant poleaxe is lighter than flamberge, danish and german twohanders

and those are the two most popular poleaxes and their counterparts in twohanded department.
as far as i am concerned that seems right because they aren't massive pieces of steel like those big swords
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 05:12:13 am by cutsomecheesewithmybow »

Offline balbaroth

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2011, 02:00:11 am »
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Quote from: Ganon on Yesterday at 00:04:39

    Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?

    I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).


Personally I disagree.  The slight advantage is what the pure's should have.  Currently there's more diversity on the field than before.  If hybrids were worse off stats/mechanics wise than they are now we'd have what we had before:  Every melee is a 2her because that's the best melee build (it still is) and every ranged character is an archer because it's the best build (arguably still so).

Gorath... i'll have to agree  with Ganon concerning specialization , the return you get for being crazy enough to specialize is ultra low , with that being said people dont it anymore and people are becoming hybrids... which came to another problem most became throwers hybrids :p  we had peasant wars , plate wars, xbow wars , and now its officially the era of ITHROWSHITATYOU ( great char name btw  :D )

            heck i dont even specialize anymore myself , 15 agi man nothing else rest in str , people said i used to hit hard, they will have no idea when i will have 8 ps
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 02:03:11 am by balbaroth »

Offline Gorath

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2011, 03:22:10 am »
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Gorath... i'll have to agree  with Ganon concerning specialization , the return you get for being crazy enough to specialize is ultra low , with that being said people dont it anymore and people are becoming hybrids... which came to another problem most became throwers hybrids :p  we had peasant wars , plate wars, xbow wars , and now its officially the era of ITHROWSHITATYOU ( great char name btw  :D )

            heck i dont even specialize anymore myself , 15 agi man nothing else rest in str , people said i used to hit hard, they will have no idea when i will have 8 ps

High tier throwing weapons might need a tweak in their damage sure but really specialized builds still do have the advantage in their chosen field strictly by mechanics.  The issue I can see is that player skill comes into play.  Lets look at Goretooth just as an example.  Currently he's an archer right?  Pretty dedicated too given his super high strength and bow choice.  He also picks up a random weapon off the ground and still wrecks people when need be and the reason isn't that hybrids are that much better off mathmatically than a pure melee; stat wise the pure melee should win hands down; it's that Gore just shreds period.  Give a good player only 1 tool to work with and they'll go far.  Give them two tools to work with, even while less effective than the pures, and they're going to tear shit up even more because of versatility, not stats.

Of course if we want to go to a class based game (because let's be real, that's all super specialized builds are) then there's going to need to be a huge overhaul of the balance in the game as:
xbowmen, throwers and to a lesser degree archers would all be shit (since if they carry a melee weapon they're now a "hybrid")
1hers would be shit since 2hers can carry shields for advancing and then dominate melee (but what else is new)
2h/polearms would be the de-facto infantry builds with the advantage vs all non-cav given to 2hers and a slight cav advantage to polearms.
Cav would be cav (I doubt much would change).

Really what it seems like the whole thing boils down to is "TOO MUCH RANGED WEAPONRY, GAAAAAAH".  And truth be told I can understand this and melee is awesome.  However, if you make ranged weapon users absolutely incapable of melee combat because of some extreme specialization buff / hybrid nerf then we might as well turn ranged combat off.  Better to turn it off than to punish skilled players by adding artificial limitations on their possibility to defend themselves at all.  A disadvantage for being a hybrid, sure, but we have that currently.  I say this because I really don't see anyone complaining about such hybrids as my 1h/shield+polearm hybrid.  No rage threads saying "WTF, Sword and board pulling out a spear is OP!!!!!!! NERF"

Instead it's all about ranged being hybridized with something.  So I ask, if an archer/xbowman/thrower kills you in melee then it's a problem with game mechanics?  If he kills you with the ranged weapon he's just a my old friend right?  So.... why don't we stop beating around the bush and just get rid of ranged altogether?  If that's not what this is about then I really don't comprehend what the issue is, because on any of my characters (and I've ALWAYS played some kind of hybrid, to the point that pre-patch I was hybrid in 4 weapons remember?) the pure builds have always been faster and hit harder, including now, in their respective specialization.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 03:24:14 am by Gorath »
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Offline Ganon

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2011, 05:53:01 am »
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I don't understand your post Gorath. If the game would be rebalanced for a class system (which is NOT what i want btw) then 2handers will have problems using shields, archers will do just fine by running away and shooting only from range (just no melee ownage from archers like now), and so on.

I am playing a specialized character because i like to maximize on what i'm doing, i tried a hybrid build and while it was more versatile and more powerful, it felt stupid to play. I prefer losing by learning to do more difficult stuff than winning by oneshotting people with throwing while being mostly melee specced. What i did call for is to make it harder for hybrids so skilled players would do well, while the maiority would chose to specialize.

There was some crazy polearm spammer today, he was so fast with my bad 70 ping i couldn't see the animation in time. Only way to kill him was from range or to get a lucky facehug->bump->hit which won't work against more skilled players for obvious reasons. He would also kill most people on my team by just spamming, so we started camping a roof and i had to use a xbow with 1 wpf, just because of that guy.

Ranged weaponry is ok, people should be able to play what they enjoy, to oneshot str based characters in heavy armor is NOT OK

Archers do fine in melee currently, it's a real fight most of the time, of course they all chose a polearm because with they high agi it can be spammed. So what's the reason to go full polearm, or full archer, when you can do both let's say at 75% efficiency of a specialized character. Summed up it would be 150% efficiency vs 100% of the specced one, while you should be at 50% efficiency if you chose to do 2 things at once, that way it would be balanced.

Offline bruce

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2011, 08:49:36 am »
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Archers do fine in melee currently, it's a real fight most of the time, of course they all chose a polearm because with they high agi it can be spammed. So what's the reason to go full polearm, or full archer, when you can do both let's say at 75% efficiency of a specialized character. Summed up it would be 150% efficiency vs 100% of the specced one, while you should be at 50% efficiency if you chose to do 2 things at once, that way it would be balanced.

I see archers with 2hs fairly often as well. Simple fact is that archers use a 2h/polearm because they're the most effective at melee, even with low wpf. Hell, with 1 wpf and decent character stats you can pick up a twohander or a polearm from the ground and fight (don't try to portray this as "polearms can be spammed", since they can be spammed no more then a eg. 2h weapon can).

The reason to go full polearm of course is points,wpf and upkeep. For instance, instead of a polearm/throwing hybrid with 21/15 stats I have now, I could have a pure polearmer with 21/18 (by level 31, now am level 30) and wearing transitional instead of mail (7K mail is upkeepable, therefore 22K transitional would be upkeepable without three stacks of throwing axes which cost 15K). The reason to hybridize is actually the fact that throwing currently utterly rapes, not anything else - being able to spam one/two-hit kill projectiles is just too damn appealing.

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Offline Matey

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2011, 11:46:22 am »
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i decided to try a diff build myself this gen. im an archer/1hander (no shield). i find that whether i bring my 1 hand axe with 80 wpf(im still putting in more points) or a bec with 1wpf, im still equally effective in melee. sometimes i throw on my kinda-heavy armour (transitional) and take only the bec with 1 wpf, and i usually get a better k/d than i do trying to shoot people with a bow. i can only imagine how effective i would be if i actually put some wpf into polearms... anyways, point is; even without wpf a decent player can put up a fight with any wep they can hold. I can be spammed to death if i use the bec cause i only have 15 agil right now, but most opponents are beatable.

i think the biggest issue right now is that you can be a capable thrower without any wpf... so all these strength builds just pump skills into power throw and put all their wpf into 2h or polearms, and they can fling shit with the best of them, while still being basically specialized in melee... thats why theres so many throwers. at least archers have to put 120+ wpf into archery as well as a bunch of points into power draw if they want to be effective... crossbows dont require any skill points, nor is wpf necessary, but they are so slow and expensive that you dont see too many of em, so not a big issue. i think its survivable to have throwing remain as powerful as it is now, but it should require 100+ wpf to be able to hit with any reliability... power throw seems to increase accuracy too much, should be damage not accuracy.

Offline Vexus

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Re: Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2011, 12:52:01 pm »
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I was there in same team of ganon there was a guy attacking with hafted blade 95 speed faster then the hit animation.

Now I don't mind agi stackers but there should be a limit if he hit you once you were dead he was so fast he was able to hit you while you were recovering several times and I got 21 agi 160 wpf in 2h with bastard and still got out spammed.