Why is everything getting nerfed except polearm spammers ?

[bruce]

Hybrid characters are already hit severely by one thing (well, two in some cases), which is upkeep.

For instance, a hybrid thrower/polearmer has to pay for circa 15K extra. I could be in far better armour without having to pay for 15K extra, not to mention 7 skillpoints.

[Rumblood]

Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?

Hey listen, why don't the specialized classes that are good at ONE THING quit complaining about hybrids who can't compete in that area, but can pull an alternate weapon and tactic on your butt? So...you want to be specialized...but also able to kill everyone with equal ability?

[Ganon]

Hybrid characters are already hit severely by one thing (well, two in some cases), which is upkeep.

For instance, a hybrid thrower/polearmer has to pay for circa 15K extra. I could be in far better armour without having to pay for 15K extra, not to mention 7 skillpoints.

Ok now, a reply that makes sense please ? Thanks.

[Gorath]

Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?

So now that you've gotten your anti-american agenda out of the way, let's stick to your RPG example.  This isn't a traditional RPG, this game actually requires skill.  Going strictly by the math, a pure melee build will beat a hybrid build in melee.  Same for any pure vs a hybrid in that field.  Ah but now we throw the player skill into the mix, and if you were killed by a hybrid on your pure specialized melee character that means you were out-skilled and out-played.  The end.

If you would like a guaranteed overwhelming advantage that guarantees a win vs a hybrid character when using a specialized character I would suggest picking up a tradition RPG (MMO) where skill isn't a factor in PvP.  Just gear, level and spec.  Otherwise a pure archer will pick up that 2h'd sword/polearm and kill you with it if they are better than you.  And that's life.

In terms of balancing, you throw the skill factor out the window and go by the math.  And the math says that in their chosen field a specialized "pure" character has the advantage over a hybrid character every time.

*BTW:  I played soccer as a kid.  Fuck soccer.  If you want a universal sports example then MMA fighters vs a pure boxer, pure wrestler, etc.  Chances are in a real streetfight the MMA guy (who's a hybrid, DUN DUN DUUUUUN) will win over the specialized fighter.*

[Ganon]

Gorath when talking about balance always assume in a hypotethical test, that the players are of equal skill please. What you just said is correct but doesn't represent an argument at all, it's just off-topic. The math doesn't say that, because hybrid characters are doing better, and some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids. It's the same exact player, realizing hybrid > specialized so he rerolls.

[Gorath]

Gorath when talking about balance always assume in a hypotethical test, that the players are of equal skill please.

That's what I said, you throw the skill factor out the window.   

What you just said is correct but doesn't represent an argument at all, it's just off-topic. The math doesn't say that, because hybrid characters are doing better, and some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids. It's the same exact player, realizing hybrid > specialized so he rerolls.

The math DOES say that.  A pure 2her will have higher stats and skills in that role than a 2her thrower.  The thrower needs to split WPF (or have one of them get neglected) and spend more skill points in PT.  The 'pure' can take those points that would have been spent in PT to convert to extra stat points as well as focus all of their wpf into 2hers.  The math says that in a melee fight the pure has the advantage.

The reason some players are rerolling from specialized to hybrids is for versatility.  On a battle field you can be:
Ranged
Melee
OR ranged + melee

Which gives you more options on the field?  You can make up for the stat deficiency by player better in order to compensate, and gain the ability to shift your role as you see fit from moment to moment.  This still doesn't change the fact that mathmatically when facing a pure in the realm of the pure-build's focus that the hybrid is statistically at a disadvantage.

And how is this off-topic, this is responding to your fallacious claims about hybrids.

[Ganon]

Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?

I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).

[Gorath]

Off topic was the obvious part about a skilled player winning over a lesser skilled one, which affects game balance how ?

I disagree on your opinion, having and tried different character builds, the way wpf (diminishing returns on wpf) and stats work favours the hybrid characters. The difference is minimal, while it should require alot more skill for an hybrid to kill a specialized character in his specific area, be it ranged or melee. Hybrids should be harder to play than what they are now. 2h/thrower 1h/shield/thrower, archer/polearm, are too easy right now. As you see that is not just math, saying ok the specialized has a tiny advantage, everything is fine, it's not and it's a maior balance issue that could lead to alot less diversification, where everyone is either a 1h or 2h + thrower hybrid or an archer + polearm (or some other non popular hybrid build). I'm not necessarly calling for a simple nerf, they just need to be harder to play so we don't see the servers with exclusively hybrids (aka tankmages in the old days).

Personally I disagree.  The slight advantage is what the pure's should have.  Currently there's more diversity on the field than before.  If hybrids were worse off stats/mechanics wise than they are now we'd have what we had before:  Every melee is a 2her because that's the best melee build (it still is) and every ranged character is an archer because it's the best build (arguably still so).

[XavierX]

The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.

[Ganon]

The only thing that needs fixing is the polearm stun. In effect, it increases the speed of all the weapons to the degree that they are faster than their posted ratings. I think that is where most of the frustration with spam is coming from. Normally, should you survive a 2hander hit, you have an opportunity to block the next attack. With a polearm spammer this is not the case. I would argue that any polearm that does blunt damage should continue to have this stun, but any cutting weapon should not as the 2h swords are.

Yeah you can't swing back with the stun in effect, it has been posted you can only block, i don't know for sure, but it should have some requirement if at all possible, so that only specialzed polearm users can stun, otherwise it gives a huge advantage (when you get hit, you need to block 2 times and not 1 to recover and be able to try and counterattack).

[IG_Saint]

There are two kinds of stun: block stun and hit stun. Block stun is when you block a larger weapon and because of that you can't attack for a short period. Hit stun is when you get hit and because of the stagger you can't do anything and get hit a second time. Block stun is fine, hit stun is not. The problem is that I don't think even the taleworlds devs realised hit stun would be possible, so I'm unsure if anything can be done about it.

[Stormcrow]

I think everything needs to be nerfed, except for the player style I currently use. Instead of complaining get some skill, or if your weapons not fast enough its probably because you need wp's or agility. Your suckiness does not mean that everything else must be nerfed so that you can be a better player. If you think a certain weapon class is strong then use it, dont complain.

[Thucydides]

Stop these american sport references, in soccer players learn one role and do that for their whole life, it's attack/center/defense/goalkeeper and even the side left/right/center will define a soccer player. Also why do you bring up sports when i say something pretty well known about role playing games, where obviously you can specialize or be a hybrid, but if the hybrid is good at multiple things, specialized characters make no sense. Just as crushtrough really works only on str builds (and if you think some balanced or agi character can use a crushtrough weapon with success, by all means test it and nerf it), polearm spam should work on polearm agi characters and not on archers or hybrid archer/melee which should do ok at both, but be at an disadvantage when being engaged in melee by a pure melee character. If this doesn't make sense to you, well idk, make more sport examples. Like american football, or golf ? Or maybe basketball ?

So what are polearm spammers supposed to be good against? Shields? An agi Huscarl shielder is basically unbreakable unless you got 8 good wacks on it. Plus, polearm attacks bounce when hitting a shield, allowing a shielder to retaliate. Archers? Polearms are targets for archers, unlike shielders. So that leaves calvalry and 2 handers.  Cav, duh, but 2 handers are equal in speed and range to polearms, nevermind the OP barmace that crushthrough manual block and seemingly everyone uses.

[Ganon]

Polearms have a crushthrough weapon. Really weird in the other thread where a polespammer complains about crushthrough but forgets he has his own boulder on a stick weapon. If you spam a shield user you will break his shield, given that you can block his response properly. Against an archer you need to get in melee archer dea.. oh wait he's probably a polearm spammer as well. That's a problem but some people think it's perfectly balanced. Vs 2handers you have a huge advantage, if you hit they need 2 blocks to recover, you also have weapons with knockdown and crushtrough, so you might knock him down if you hit or crush through the block.

[Elmetiacos]

So what are polearm spammers supposed to be good against? Shields? An agi Huscarl shielder is basically unbreakable unless you got 8 good wacks on it. Plus, polearm attacks bounce when hitting a shield, allowing a shielder to retaliate. Archers? Polearms are targets for archers, unlike shielders. So that leaves calvalry and 2 handers.  Cav, duh, but 2 handers are equal in speed and range to polearms, nevermind the OP barmace that crushthrough manual block and seemingly everyone uses.

Bar Mace is a lie! I have one and I stopped using it because even with PS9 I found it ineffective: it would crush through a shield block less than half the time. When, with my Strength, a Long Bardiche will chew up a Huscarl shield in 4 or 5 blows anyway, without forcing me to always use overheads and close to turtle strike range, the BM is a waste of a slot. Because they stand out, people remember the occasions when the Bar Mace user got very lucky and crushed through 3 times in a row, forgetting all the other occasions when he was an easy kill.