cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Christo on August 12, 2011, 02:12:22 pm
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I don't know why is this happening, in melee fights a lot of people manage to survive like.. 2-3 times more hits than what they should.
A 6PS axehead in the face is not enough now? I'm just curious why is this happening right now.
Some guys somehow manage to take like 5 to 6 hits in a mail with surcoat.. While I can die in two.
It's just plain retarded how the game seems to be about personal skill, while it's just about who can crutch more on STR, and heirloomed armour. I'm not against heirlooms but after this new "wonderful" armor soak change, I tend to bounce a lot while others just 2 hit finish me off point blank, and laugh. I call bullshit.
Also, I don't understand why the devs nerfed Agility to the ground. Thanks to that, nowadays we have a crapload of STR stacking FOTM players I can't even damange with an Axe, I just bounce..
I know I should get more PS and become an STR stacker just like the majority, but is it the devs intention to force people into a certain melee playstyle that requires no skill just cheap shots on the enemy?
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The armor soak change reduced bounces.
But yes, str is op.
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The armor soak change reduced bounces.
But yes, str is op.
Well, I only thought it's the culprit because this keeps happening since that patch.
There are people who just laugh and mow me down, no matter how many hits I do to them, no matter how many I block.
PS: Before someone tells me that I'm an AGI stacker; 18/18.
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Strangely enough, I seem to bounce more now with my poleaxe than my 1-hander. I'm guessing that I sometimes just miss the sweet spot on my poleaxe when someone is crowding me.
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Strangely enough, I seem to bounce more now with my poleaxe than my 1-hander. I'm guessing that I sometimes just miss the sweet spot on my poleaxe when someone is crowding me.
Yeah this screws me over. Problem is that anti polearm lobbyists will always bring up PoleStun, which I can't even pull off with 18 str and an Elegant Poleaxe, it's next to impossible to do that all the time.
1h can do a lot of damage point blank because of their tendency to headhit from slashes, and their weapon range. But yeah they need even more buffs. 2h can deal it's full damage, too. Not with stabs, but the superior slashes. With an Elegant Poleaxe stab/slash I end up bouncing all the time.
This is just wrong.
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If you bounce with poleaxe, you failed positioning. There is no armor in the game that will bounce a correct poleaxe swing.
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If you bounce with poleaxe, you failed positioning. There is no armor in the game that will bounce a correct poleaxe swing.
You can forget about positioning when you always get ganked by opponents who will facehug you, and you have to watch for others around.
For short polearmers like me, this is just a kick in the balls.
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Overhead with big polearm to the head should be insta death no matter what armor you're wearing. Sadly that's not the case.
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To be fair though, I'm happy with the overall armor changes even though cut damage got reduced.
With my poleaxe now, I mainly due overheads and thrusts and don't have a problem.
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the soak/reduction changes do the opposite of what OP is saying, therefore OP is doing something wrong.
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the soak/reduction changes do the opposite of what OP is saying, therefore OP is doing something wrong.
Good, I take it back then.
I experience this bouncing thing since the latest version. Before that, it was fine.
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I have no trouble staggering people with a 25 cut damage sword and 4 PS. If I want to hurt them, I stab them, as pierce damage is A LOT more effective than cut.
The major chance I noticed on my polearmer, is that I will bounce (mighty great long axe) if I hit too early in the swing. That's something I could avoid before that by turning into my swings. It's not a gameproblem though, as that's what's meant to happen, but I seem to be getting it more often now than before the patch.
Could be my imagination though.
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Str stacking IS OP. And that is from a guy, who used 21/15 builds back in the days of extreme agi-whoring.
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With this change, not hitting the sweetspot will deal even less damage, resulting in a bounce if not swung correctly.
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I love the new armor values, you still bounce if you do a failswing, but random bounces cause of high armor are much rarer.
P.S Poleaxe user
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Strength is too good, or more specifically agility sucks. Agility should really be renamed to 'Utility' because that is all it gives you, outside run speed.
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Str stacking IS OP. And that is from a guy, who used 21/15 builds back in the days of extreme agi-whoring.
I think some people forget this is a game with STATS and not just weapons. 6ps with a CUT weapon (yes even an expensive one) is best for lowly armored foes (with low IF). Anything else then players need to play smart and get a pierce or blunt weapon. If another player takes the path of high strength and survivability that should be a valid path yes? Is that not allowed? Do we all have to be frail flowers ready to be cut down by archers and anything else that sneezes at us? Is heavy armor just for 'show' and should not able to be used in RP fashion (when the correct player stats accompany it). Sorry some cannot figure out how to make and use a good build but that's not others fault.
If people don't like the idea of every player being an INDIVIDUAL with different stats and abilities maybe they should stick with native.
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That is the point, Strength stacking is the way to go, since Agi-heavy chars just die super fast with little or no advantage.
Think again.
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Dont have seen a lot of people complaining about their poles lately.
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That is the point, Strength stacking is the way to go, since Agi-heavy chars just die super fast with little or no advantage.
Think again.
"stacking' agi doesn't seem like it would necessarily be something great IRL or in a game. Unless you want to RP a guy who dies quickly which is what you inferred. In that case agi 'stacking' would be working consistently with what it should be. If however one wants a balanced build with enough agi to be quicker than most yet still do decent damage that's totally possible to do right now. Just pick the RIGHT WEAPON for the job. To the thread starter: put away your elegant poleaxe and buy either a long hafted spiked mace, GLA or bec. Which ever you prefer using the best. They will all do better damage than what you are now using.
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To the thread starter: put away your elegant poleaxe and buy either a long hafted spiked mace, GLA or bec. Which ever you prefer using the best. They will all do better damage than what you are now using.
But why the heck am I being forced into 2-3 certain weapons?
This is not how it should be, I don't want to be an EZ-moder with GLA and it's stunning, or the Bec and it's OP-ness..
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Bec is not OP, just ask EU.
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Happened to me yesterday. I sneaked up behind a crossbower with my One Handed Battle Axe (34c) and thought it's gonna be an easy 1-hit-kill. My first hit would have divided his head in 2 pieces, but I guess he not even lost half his hp, cause the 2 hits to his body after this didn't kill him. Then I got killed by some other guys... Well, I think 18 Str, 6 PS and 129 wpf should be enough to kill someone who only has a mail coif on his "steel skull" with one hit to the head... :rolleyes:
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Welcome to months ago eu, str is king
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But why the heck am I being forced into 2-3 certain weapons?
This is not how it should be, I don't want to be an EZ-moder with GLA and it's stunning, or the Bec and it's OP-ness..
So you don't like the solution. You'd prefer everyone else be nerfed to accommodate your poor weapon choice (for the task) and balanced build? You want the damage of a strength build while using a cut weapon plus all the benefits of a balanced build? lol, ok then.....
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Buff agi if you want but for fuck sake enough with nerfing everything.
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So you don't like the solution. You'd prefer everyone else be nerfed to accommodate your poor weapon choice (for the task) and balanced build? You want the damage of a strength build while using a cut weapon plus all the benefits of a balanced build? lol, ok then.....
Poor Weapon choice? Go to hell with your suggestions, I'm not gonna EZ mode this game just because you say so.
Also, Balanced builds now got f*cked in the a** because the "best of the two worlds" mechanic does not work anymore, since AGI is next to useless these days.
Also, the Elegant is the most expensive Polearm in the game. It's paired with the GS', and near a Flamberg's pricing. It SHOULD be good if it costs so much, right?
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Poor Weapon choice? Go to hell with your suggestions, I'm not gonna EZ mode this game just because you say so.
Also, Balanced builds now got f*cked in the a** because the "best of the two worlds" mechanic does not work anymore, since AGI is next to useless these days.
Also, the Elegant is the most expensive Polearm in the game. It's paired with the GS', and near a Flamberg's pricing. It SHOULD be good if it costs so much, right?
You're contradicting yourself. You say you want to glance less, but you don't want to use "ez-mode weps" that do...?
So you want the elegant poleaxe to glance less so that you can have it easymode while not technically having easymode...?
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fail double post.
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Balanced builds now got f*cked in the a** because the "best of the two worlds" mechanic does not work anymore, since AGI is next to useless these days.
Balanced shouldn't be 'best' of both worlds. It should be 'good' at both.
Also, the Elegant is the most expensive Polearm in the game. It's paired with the GS', and near a Flamberg's pricing. It SHOULD be good if it costs so much, right?
Here's what you are paying for in the elegant poleaxe: Length, fairly good speed, and versatility (pierce thrust + cut swing) at the expense of being awesome in all categories. If you want to destroy with it get high PS.
Buff agi if you want but for fuck sake enough with nerfing everything.
Yep. Tired of the nerf crew and their endless bellowing.
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Balanced shouldn't be 'best' of both worlds. It should be 'good' at both.
And yet it isn't. Mostly from the AGI side, but from the STR side as well, thanks to that everyone has to stack it.
Here's what you are paying for in the elegant poleaxe: Length, fairly good speed, and versatility (pierce thrust + cut swing) at the expense of being awesome in all categories. If you want to destroy with it get high PS.
Agreed. I'll roll a 24/15 next generation, with the Elegant Heirloomed up to 3 times. It'll be interesting to see that in action.
Yep. Tired of the nerf crew and their endless bellowing.
I guess you misread me. I'm not part of the "nerf crew", I just want to point out that being balanced doesn't worth it because you don't get any advantage from it, besides if you're cav. Agility needs some love, for lord's sanity.
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry. Just uh, enjoying the realization about strength happening in EU. Does this mean EU will call themselves idiotic strength build-complaining-forum-trolls like you guys complained about NA for months?
Or will there be a solution? As it is, the metagame follows this: Get away with as much strength as possible without getting backpeddled by the average other player. Anyone can see how that trends a month later on when more and more follow the trend. With my strength build nobody survives more than 2 hits form my pole axe, save for other strength builds in heirloomed armor.
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Naw, there are enough of high agi or balanced players still, some of which are actually good enough to make use of their athlethics to make life a pain for Str stackers, doesn't change the fact that a str stacker has far fewer disadvantages than an agi whoer.
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mmm, It just hasn't been long enough yet.
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But why the heck am I being forced into 2-3 certain weapons?
This is not how it should be, I don't want to be an EZ-moder with GLA and it's stunning, or the Bec and it's OP-ness..
Christo its not like those poleaxes werent OP, so that shouldnt be a problem for you. :lol:
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Yes buff agi, agi so bad :(
(not)
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I dont really mind the new armour soak thingy, but surviving a Mighty Great long axe 6PS overhead with no headarmour is just stupid.
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I dont really mind the new armour soak thingy, but surviving a Mighty Great long axe 6PS overhead with no headarmour is just stupid.
Not sure if this is correct. You probably missed the head and hit shoulders.
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People whined when upkeep was raised, now live with it, everyone has 45-70 armor and you need 3-5 hits to kill people with giant pole/2h, not mentioning 1h.
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T0 be fair most str stackers sucks and cant block for shit.
Even a zombie can feint spam them to death...
But yeah it gets annoying u have to hit the walking pile of meat 6 times with a MW flamberge and 6 ps...
I usally only find this a problem when their is a crowd and someone can come in an save the str stacker from gettin feint spammed to death. :lol:
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Agi needs a huge buff, come on... make it happen please.
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add a double tap WASD to dodge feature that is based on agility haha
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shit I've said since a long long time ago.
The solution is to move some wpf from the "free wpf" per level to WPM wpf. Not too much of course. All with measure.
STR stacking won't be as good anymore, and agi + hybrid will get a small small boost.
(negligible because wpf points are more worth in the beginning and less at the high-end)
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Agi needs a huge buff, come on... make it happen please.
Stfu nerd, you do realize that if agi gets buffed more people switch to agi and you lose your advantage?
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T0 be fair most str stackers sucks and cant block for shit.
Even a zombie can feint spam them to death...
But yeah it gets annoying u have to hit the walking pile of meat 6 times with a MW flamberge and 6 ps...
I usally only find this a problem when their is a crowd and someone can come in an save the str stacker from gettin feint spammed to death. :lol:
That is the player not the build. You notice the bad str stackers and not the bad agi/balanced since they die quickly in 1 or 2 hits.
Encounter bad Str build: Fight; "man he isn't blocking. Why isn't he dead?!" 5 seconds later you move on with the conscious imprint of how bad that player was.
Encounter bad agi build: Fight; he missed a block and died. 1 second later you are running off again without a thought in your mind about how ~bad that agi player was~.
Even though both are the same bad player, one is one hell of a chore to kill.
lol
Also, if you think strength characters swing slow, Wake up.
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Actually with the soak change agi builds are damn viable, go 12/27 and just outrun spam everyone to death, quite viable. Run in, hit, run out of range, repeat, profit.
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It was already the case before, but now even more pro 2h players go 18/21 or even 15/24 to be really competitive.
As 95% of people block decently and as feints don't even work half as good as they should due to super slow gameplay, the only way to get hits in is footwork.
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I don't know why is this happening, in melee fights a lot of people manage to survive like.. 2-3 times more hits than what they should.
A 6PS axehead in the face is not enough now? I'm just curious why is this happening right now.
Some guys somehow manage to take like 5 to 6 hits in a mail with surcoat.. While I can die in two.
It's just plain retarded how the game seems to be about personal skill, while it's just about who can crutch more on STR, and heirloomed armour. I'm not against heirlooms but after this new "wonderful" armor soak change, I tend to bounce a lot while others just 2 hit finish me off point blank, and laugh. I call bullshit.
Also, I don't understand why the devs nerfed Agility to the ground. Thanks to that, nowadays we have a crapload of STR stacking FOTM players I can't even damange with an Axe, I just bounce..
I know I should get more PS and become an STR stacker just like the majority, but is it the devs intention to force people into a certain melee playstyle that requires no skill just cheap shots on the enemy?
uhm i have a polearm light cavalry alt. build is 15/24 5ps 8riding 5ath 7wm 1if.
i rarely bounce with the long war axe (often doing overhead, enemy is staggered, fast lashed side swing and the enemy is dead), stunlocking someone with an awlpike is effortless, 2-3hitting with the bec is quite common. long spear dance at facehug works, i even did some rofl kills with the heavy lance on foot.
so, no.. i really haven't noticed issues about glances.
oh and i wear studded leather coat 24/7 and i get onehit or 2hit most of the time. yes.
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Stfu nerd, you do realize that if agi gets buffed more people switch to agi and you lose your advantage?
What advantage! I'm 27/12!
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That is the player not the build. You notice the bad str stackers and not the bad agi/balanced since they die quickly in 1 or 2 hits.
Encounter bad Str build: Fight; "man he isn't blocking. Why isn't he dead?!" 5 seconds later you move on with the conscious imprint of how bad that player was.
Encounter bad agi build: Fight; he missed a block and died. 1 second later you are running off again without a thought in your mind about how ~bad that agi player was~.
Even though both are the same bad player, one is one hell of a chore to kill.
lol
Also, if you think strength characters swing slow, Wake up.
i agree... fact is STR builds need less focus to play because can sustain a LOT more hits before dying (assuming STR build geared with a good 70-80 body armor).
but STR builds are not superior in every situation. just a positioning error and you get surrounded without escape. and a blunt/pierce gank will anyway kill you in a matter of seconds. so the situations are:
- in open maps with few cover (random plains, the various desert maps) STR builds must stick and form a good infantry line to avoid to end surrounded. positioning with 2 or 3 ath and heavy armor is difficult. no escape if a flank move will get you, no retreat also. in these maps, balanced builds and agi biased builds shine (18/21, 15/24).
- in closed maps / siege maps, STR builds really do the job. narrow corridors / rooms will cut agi builds their footwork down, is harder to being surrounded. if the brawl is tight (siege for instance) with standing still fighting without so much speed bonus give STR+heavy armor builds a lot of advantage.
also agi builds with medium armor are really tiring to play. you need to stay 100% focused to avoid being 1shot by a xbow, or 1-2hitd by a STR tank. but is easier to get away from a gank, is easier to flank, easier to change position and to go help teammates.
after a lot of time as a 2h, i tried all kind of builds. from 12/27 to 33/6 almost all combinations. the best compromise i found is 21/18 with 17kgs armor. i have 63hp (22str and 3IF) with 72 body armor. i can stand a beating from 6-7PS cut weapon players. usually i survive 4 1h warhammer hits or 3 bec hits or 3 morningstar hits, 5 high tier cut weapon hits, several warbow bodkin arrows in the chest, 3-4 jarids...
so i suppose a STR 30/9 build with 80+ armor is quite hard to kill with cut weapons. morningstar do the job anyway. usually i 2hit STR builds with 2 overheads (hitting the face) or 3 max 4 hits when aiming the chest.
and yes. the only reason go for AGI is athletics. STR builds need to have less profiency because a STR guy with a longsword and 10-11PS have a way higher DPS than an agi bias build with a +3 DGS or a +3 poleaxe.
often i play the 2h morningstar without putting that much effort and i still do the job. when i play my ps5 cav/pikeman with light armor and 50hp, if i get distracted just a second or a random flying stuff hits me, i'm dead.
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strength builds are superior in every way, there's a reason NA laughs at the EU metagame. backpedalling polearmer is not a good build, deal with it
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strength builds are superior in every way
Hahahaha, no! Strength builds are very good, no doubt about that, but that's is just a ridiculous statement :lol:
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Its interesting how each continent/culture/whatever you want to call it has its own playstyle, EU is mostly balanced builds, NA seems to be raving about str lately, most people cant block there? I simply cant see a tincan with a str build getting loads of kills in EU, closest to it is a tincan dude named georges but he has a balanced build, russians tend to be extreme str builds/turtles/ranged cause they need a class that is effective with high ping in EU strategus, no idea how its like in australia or china. Also the reason for EU going balanced builds/not having a pierce/blunt damage weapon fetish is because few people have lordly armor+gloves, atleast compared to NA.
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no, most people can block, which is why str is so popular. agi builds are garbage, the AGI skills just don't scale as well as the STR skills/bonuses. AGI is popular on EU because it lets you backpedal to avoid blocking. i've fought lots of EU in strat battles, and only a few of your players are able to block consistently even against my sluggish 160 ping attacks
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Georges was/is 18/21...
And yeah, pretty much. STR builds work in NA servers because the skill level is much lower there.
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no, most people can block, which is why str is so popular. agi builds are garbage, the AGI skills just don't scale as well as the STR skills/bonuses. AGI is popular on EU because it lets you backpedal to avoid blocking. i've fought lots of EU in strat battles, and only a few of your players are able to block consistently even against my sluggish 160 ping attacks
So slow movement, slow swing speed and high damage is favorably towards fighting multiple opponents compared to agis high mobility and faster swing how?
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So slow movement, slow swing speed and high damage is favorably towards fighting multiple opponents compared to agis high mobility and faster swing how?
Only when they dont block, at all.
Also he keeps saying "agi builds aint worth shizz", what about balanced builds? 18/18 21/18 18/21.
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So slow movement, slow swing speed and high damage is favorably towards fighting multiple opponents compared to agis high mobility and faster swing how?
no man dont you see obviously being slow and high damaging is better against good players than being fast and doing less damage.. wait.. wait.. something's wrong with this logic
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no man dont you see obviously being fast and less damaging is better against good players than being slow and doing more damage.. wait.. wait.. something's wrong with this logic
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Thing is, when you encounter someone that can block, as a balanced guy you can still footwork or go do something else. As a STR you can hopelessly fight for hours waiting for a feint or hold to do the trick.
I honestly think that if people block better, the metagame will shift towards agi. Agi lets you gang on people, thus negating their ability to block.
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nice to see the casual racism from EU, i thought i was supposed to be the racist one, i'm from the US??
anyway, except for really extreme builds with <9 str, strength builds aren't that much slower than agility builds. you guys aren't being consistent with your criteria/situations here. in a duel you could argue that tons of agi is better than tons of str. in regular battle killing enemies faster is always better and agi builds don't do that
also are you guys retarded or something? i'm not arguing for 33/6 builds here, i'm talking more 27/12
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Thing is, when you encounter someone that can block, as a balanced guy you can still footwork or go do something else. As a STR you can hopelessly fight for hours waiting for a feint or hold to do the trick.
I honestly think that if people block better, the metagame will shift towards agi. Agi lets you gang on people, thus negating their ability to block.
i think the blocking actually shifted it to strength builds, because now people want ultimate one hit power with crazy long lives, so you can block forever and one shot rather than get one shotted.
oh and strength builds are superior to agi in terms of teamwork (in general). Agi only can lure people to duels but they cannot gank a group of equal skilled STR players in armor.
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i think the blocking actually shifted it to strength builds, because now people want ultimate one hit power with crazy long lives, so you can block forever and one shot rather than get one shotted.
oh and strength builds are superior to agi in terms of teamwork (in general). Agi only can lure people to duels but they cannot gank a group of equal skilled STR players in armor.
^
This
Almost everyone has at least basic blocking skills now, which means the power of the 1-shot is supreme because taking 5 hits to kill a dude who can block somewhat well vs 1-2 hits is flat out inefficient. Especially when that dude can 1-2 shot YOU because you're an agi or balanced build.
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strength builds are superior in every way, there's a reason NA laughs at the EU metagame. backpedalling polearmer is not a good build, deal with it
that's bs. STR have more pros than cons for sure but... a +3 morningstar with 8PS to the head will 1hit kill pretty much anything but maybe a 42/3 14IF with a unlucky slow hit. (pierce multiplier to the head is x3.)
so...
24 STR
8 PS
120 effective wpf
morningstar 41p
target head armor 60
Minimum: 31 (x3 =93)
Average: 41 (x3 =123)
Maximum: 51 (x3 =153)
see, a STR build will still get 1hit by connecting a proper tool to the face.
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For the future I suggest you substitude your calculations with throwing a couple of dices. It will deliever a lot more accurate results.
"pierce multiplier to the head is x3." - wat? I'll never understand how people can make up stuff like this and present them as the truth without any self doubt. melee head hit multiplier is about 1.2 as far as I know - no matter what damage type.
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Who the hell necroed this?
Xant.. oh snap.
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Who the hell necroed this?
Xant.. oh snap.
Hu? What? You're out of control, man. Get a grip of yourself!
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:3
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For the future I suggest you substitude your calculations with throwing a couple of dices. It will deliever a lot more accurate results.
"pierce multiplier to the head is x3." - wat? I'll never understand how people can make up stuff like this and present them as the truth without any self doubt. melee head hit multiplier is about 1.2 as far as I know - no matter what damage type.
Just a question, ranged hits to the head do inflict x3 their usual damage right? Melee is 1.2 for the head, 1 for the body and 0.8 for the legs, right?
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nice to see the casual racism from EU, i thought i was supposed to be the racist one, i'm from the US??
Whoa, Americans are another race? That explains so much, dude.
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For the future I suggest you substitude your calculations with throwing a couple of dices. It will deliever a lot more accurate results.
"pierce multiplier to the head is x3." - wat? I'll never understand how people can make up stuff like this and present them as the truth without any self doubt. melee head hit multiplier is about 1.2 as far as I know - no matter what damage type.
that's what a lot of people told me. sorry if we're not in the "developer warband equations book".
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melee head hit multiplier is about 1.2 as far as I know - no matter what damage type.
Wait what, I thought it was more.
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that's what a lot of people told me. sorry if we're not in the "developer warband equations book".
Well... alot of people lie... Unlike me, I never lie, ever.
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Ranged headshot multiplier is 2.4 afaik, while melee is only 1.2.
A +3 morningstar to the head should 2-3 hit most tincans, maybe 4 hit if the guy is a strength build with lordly gothic with bevor.
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Ranged headshot multiplier is 2.4 afaik, while melee is only 1.2.
A +3 morningstar to the head should 2-3 hit most tincans, maybe 4 hit if the guy is a strength build with lordly gothic with bevor.
well don't know. usually i 1-2hit plated stuff when i get the head. 41p to the head is kinda scary.. as it should be.
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Sadly for 1h, I have seen little no improvement of a str build over a balance build other than health, still takes 2-3 hits to kill anyone.....seems like the devs got this one right if they are trying to promote balanced builds.....but a bit annoying for someone like me with 30 str and 9 agi requiring 2 hits to kill someone when a 18-18 can do the same thing.
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Sadly for 1h, I have seen little no improvement of a str build over a balance build other than health, still takes 2-3 hits to kill anyone.....seems like the devs got this one right if they are trying to promote balanced builds.....but a bit annoying for someone like me with 30 str and 9 agi requiring 2 hits to kill someone when a 18-18 can do the same thing.
well 2-3 hits to kill someone (like me with my 41p morningstar) seems pretty fine if you think it's paired with ranged immunity (shield) and autoblock (shield).
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well 2-3 hits to kill someone (like me with my 41p morningstar) seems pretty fine if you think it's paired with *partial* ranged immunity (shield) and *partial* autoblock (shield).
Since the shield nerfs you can't really claim "immunity" or "autoblock" anymore since they're so easy to go behind, around and THROUGH (via hiltslash lolmechanics)
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Since the shield nerfs you can't really claim "immunity" or "autoblock" anymore since they're so easy to go behind, around and THROUGH (via hiltslash lolmechanics)
well with an huscarl you can survive a hail of bolts, with 6ps and steelpick you can 3-4 hit tanks. also if you face 3+ enemies, you have a pretty good time bonus until the reinforcements arrive. usually without a shield, you get ganked, you explode... until you manage to block something and run away from the mob.
with just your feet, you can't dodge good ranged forever.
anyway 6 shield and huscarl still gives you a good coverage. leads to a 18/18 build and other than good soloing capabilities, is invaluable in a village / open map strat battle. (human siege shield for teammate archers. even better because they can fire behind your shield.
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anyway 6 shield and huscarl still gives you a good coverage.
Yeah I suppose that's probably true still. Sorry, it's been ages since I've dirtied myself by using the scrubscarl instead of the smaller shields (heaters, horsemans kite, etc). Carry on.
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huscarl is sadly pretty much the only shield that suffers the least from the "lolmechanics" mentioned above.
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Lol fail, agi builds are by far the best :D
And the most fun.
I have use agi builds for most of my gens at its a lot more effective than str builds.
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Lol fail, agi builds are by far the best :D
And the most fun.
I have use agi builds for most of my gens at its a lot more effective than str builds.
What do you see as an agi build? 15/24?
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What do you see as an agi build? 15/24?
I guess in today's crpg-standards even 18/21 is an agi build. :mrgreen:
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What do you see as an agi build? 15/24?
not an extreme agi build but still is it. as a 24/15 build is a str build. (not an extreme but still str biased).
oh and btw the 15/24 is the best among agi oriented builds. to be somewhat effective as a infantry, you can't go with lower STR than that (besides the 12/27 LAWLpike funny build.. but that's a support awlpike/pike and just die with one bolt, 2 arrows or 1-2 hits.)
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confirmed.
Lower than 15 str is not effective. (And that's ok)
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confirmed.
Lower than 15 str is not effective. (And that's ok)
Thats only okay if lower than 15 agi would be not effective.
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confirmed.
Lower than 15 str is not effective. (And that's ok)
you're the proof of that :lol:
joking..
yeah without a pierce/blunt weapon, 3-4PS is not effective. a good player can still score kills with 3-4PS and 9-10ATH but... if the player is good doesn't mean the build is effective. as the same player would do 2 times better by going 18/21, 21/18, 24/15.
AGI is NOT a total waste. but at the moment you can't rely ONLY on that (and a 9/30 or 12/27buld mean relying on AGI).
i often get flanked by awesome ninja/samurais with very low PS. they keep hitting me over and over, i just hit em one time. they can be effective archer killers when 3-4 ninjas flank like a wolfpack. if they don't get instashotted down, ranged can't escape. but for all regarding infantry brawl, you simply can't stand with 45-50 HP and 40 armor. you can manage to manual block and footwork, but just a throwing axe / bolt / arrow / horse bump (bump + slash obv) and you're down.
Thats only okay if lower than 15 agi would be not effective.
well still effective as a killing machine, easy to run away from, easy to surround but when other people support you, the STR build just do the job. i would never go anything lower than 4ATH but it's just me as i like chasing down, footwork stuff.. even if some LLJK will say that more than 9agi sucks, imo anything less 4-5ATH is not... EFFECTIVE
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well still effective as a killing machine, easy to run away from, easy to surround but when other people support you, the STR build just do the job. i would never go anything lower than 4ATH but it's just me as i like chasing down, footwork stuff.. even if some LLJK will say that more than 9agi sucks, imo anything less 4-5ATH is not... EFFECTIVE
Plenty of people do really good with 27/12 or 30/9. As it is now high str builds are much less gimmick builds then high agi. I think the battle effectiveness of 9/30 should be comparable to 30/9. With 9/30 you glance a lot. With 30/9 you should get spammed a lot. Thats not the way it is, thats why the wpf curve should get less steep.
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Plenty of people do really good with 27/12 or 30/9. As it is now high str builds are much less gimmick builds then high agi. I think the battle effectiveness of 9/30 should be comparable to 30/9. With 9/30 you glance a lot. With 30/9 you should get spammed a lot. Thats not the way it is, thats why the wpf curve should get less steep.
indeed i agree as i stated in the other AGI related threads. now AGI path is NOT effective. i'm not saying it should stay the way it is. i'm saying AGI need a buff as WM does (or the profiency ramp. but i would rather buff weaponmaster to counter the STR build spam, while the wpf ramp alone will benefit both builds), i would increase the armor weight OR buff the ATH speed bonus to +1%/+1.5%.
we should bring back the old 220wpf at WM10 level 30. and who say "oh no.. the oldschool spam-o-rama crpg!" i say WITHOUT the +0.5% swing speed per AGI point.
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i say WITHOUT the +0.5% swing speed per AGI point.
Luckily thats not even there now.
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Luckily thats not even there now.
bringing back the 0.5% swing speed bonus would be too much. +13.5% (9/30 build) swing speed (and also all ranged reload / rate of fire if i'm not wrong)+ MW katana + 220WPF is just too much. that's why balancers removed the swing speed bonus from agi and reworked wpf ramp.
i just say WM need a big buff to bias the overwhelming STR path.
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...
Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...
Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.
i could say the same about "overcoming by simple HP+damage stats is a stupid concept. as long as two fighters hits 2 times eachother, the 9/30 wearing leather will die while the 30/9 wearing med-heavy armor will be at 80% hp"
btw WPF impact on swing speed is VERY VERY minimal. from 0 to 140 effective WPF, you gain ~10% weapon speed (i use the waltF4 tests to compare). so i suppose from 150 to 220 you gain another 5%. seems fine for someone with 3 powerstrike and 45hp. or not?
actually
30/9 str build have 85hp, +80% melee damage, around 120wpf, slow running speed, no armor/weapons difficulty restriction. so double HP, quad damage, -5% swing speed, -30% running speed. (compared to 9/30)
9/30 agi build have 44hp. +15% melee damage, around 180wpf, fast running speed, armor/weapons difficulty restriction.
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...
Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.
Well you can glance due to character stats, getting spammed or glancing, it kinda falls in the same category. High agi builds glance, but high str builds do not get spammed. The wpf curve should be more linear, so the increased cost per proficiency point is higher than it is now in the lower numbers, and lower than it is now in the higher numbers.
High agi builds will get 200 wpf, high strength builds will get 80 wpf.
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I'd say 100-120 wpf, if only to avoird the nasty repair rape that will occur with such low WPF.
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...
Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.
First, hiltslashing is very questionable IMO.
And when you get double swings, it's always partially because of stats. You can't get double swings with a long maul, even with uber-1337-pro footwork. In fact it depends mostly on stats. With slow weapons such a the flamberge (86 isn't that slow), many people that are fooled by either your feints or holds will hit you first because your weapon, even if you did everything right, is much slower than theirs.
Human movement speed and acceleration is already way too high compared with horse standards in this game. More often than not can archers/infantry just jump on the side and magically dodge a whole horse charging them because they can jump like monkeys and change their direction like if they had no inertia (try that IRL : run 20m in one direction then turn 90° without decelerating or cutting the turn). I think we need to have high swing speeds back instead. Now everyone and their grandmother can read every hold and feint because cRPG is slow as hell. It leads to the prevalence of footwork over anything else and it is a bad evolution of what "skill" is IMO.
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i could say the same about "overcoming by simple HP+damage stats is a stupid concept. as long as two fighters hits 2 times eachother, the 9/30 wearing leather will die while the 30/9 wearing med-heavy armor will be at 80% hp"
btw WPF impact on swing speed is VERY VERY minimal. from 0 to 140 effective WPF, you gain ~10% weapon speed (i use the waltF4 tests to compare). so i suppose from 150 to 220 you gain another 5%. seems fine for someone with 3 powerstrike and 45hp. or not?
str build have 90hp, +80% melee damage, slow running speed, no armor/weapons difficulty restriction.
agi build have 45hp. +15% melee damage, fast running speed, armor/weapons difficulty restriction.
"Overcoming by hp/damage"
That was not my point. :|
I'm not talking about swing-for-swing-odds-are-that-that-person-will-win, I'm talking about a scenario where one guy would simply stand no chance because of flawed gamemechanics.
I never argued not to buff agi, I'm just saying that I don't think buffing swingspeed is the way, since mechannically possible spamming by means of simple weapon stats is bull. (Looking at steel pick and spammitar if swingspeed would increase).
Well you can glance due to character stats, getting spammed or glancing, it kinda falls in the same category. High agi builds glance, but high str builds do not get spammed. The wpf curve should be more linear, so the increased cost per proficiency point is higher than it is now in the lower numbers, and lower than it is now in the higher numbers.
High agi builds will get 200 wpf, high strength builds will get 80 wpf.
No it doesn't, there are ways of preventing glancing (turning into swings, speedbonus, headhit etc.), but if your opponent is simply so fast that you cannot strike back...? What you gonna do?
Even at lower levels and using a scythe I rarely glance nowadays.
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Also, while I do agree agi needs a buff, nowhere ín the Holy Book of c-rpg Balance does it say that Str and Agi should be equal. The way I see it, Str is the "main" attribute of your character as it deals with the most basic stats (damage given, damage taken) while Agi is the "complementary" attribute, and the one that makes your character special and interesting to play with/against (governs specialized skills such as riding and shielding, also deals with the more subtle attributes of your character such as speed bonus damage, battlefield prescence, footwork, dodging arrows etc.)
Going for a high Str build will yield a character that is very powerful - but also very boring, slow and predictable. Going for a high Agi build will yield a character that is interesting, varied and tricky - but lacking raw power.
This is why I've always favoured balanced builds - enough power to be able to hurt, and enough agi to be able to do fun/tricky stuff (duel!).
...and imo, this is fine, BUT I feel that Agi currently give to little of a bonus to be, well, "viable". Once you hit the Agi levels where you can start doing real crazy shit, your character is already far too weak to be able to acomplish much useful.
Sorry for rant :P
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Also, while I do agree agi needs a buff, nowhere ín the Holy Book of c-rpg Balance does it say that Str and Agi should be equal. The way I see it, Str is the "main" attribute of your character as it deals with the most basic stats (damage given, damage taken) while Agi is the "complementary" attribute, and the one that makes your character special and interesting to play with/against (governs specialized skills such as riding and shielding, also deals with the more subtle attributes of your character such as speed bonus damage, battlefield prescence, footwork, dodging arrows etc.)
Going for a high Str build will yield a character that is very powerful - but also very boring, slow and predictable. Going for a high Agi build will yield a character that is interesting, varied and tricky - but lacking raw power.
This is why I've always favoured balanced builds - enough power to be able to hurt, and enough agi to be able to do fun/tricky stuff (duel!).
...and imo, this is fine, BUT I feel that Agi currently give to little of a bonus to be, well, "viable". Once you hit the Agi levels where you can start doing real crazy shit, your character is already far too weak to be able to acomplish much useful.
Sorry for rant :P
well i partially agree. i disagree about the AGI as a "complementary" stat. is not. should be "almost" equal to STR in value. now is not. rebalancing stats would give more room out the already done thousand times 27/12, 24/15, 21/18, 18/21 builds. Now economic value-wise, the most effective battle-siege builds are (at least for 2h/pole) 27/12, 24/15, 21/18. because you can run in a slightly cheaper armor (lighter, biased by more STR+IF hp) and weapons (mid-tier weapons are faster, and cheaper. as a longsword with 9PS is by far faster and deadlier than a DGS with 5PS. only drawback is 15cm shorter.)
i remember my old 27/12 with +3 studded leather over mail and +3 longsword. was really nasty.
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance
Yes they do, depending on the weapon. I'm a balanced build (18/18) and I still glance off of platers with shit. Granted I use "crappy" weapons instead of the cookie cutter German/Danish/Bec holy trinity of melee but still.
Human movement speed and acceleration is already way too high compared with horse standards in this game. More often than not can archers/infantry just jump on the side and magically dodge a whole horse charging them because they can jump like monkeys and change their direction like if they had no inertia (try that IRL : run 20m in one direction then turn 90° without decelerating or cutting the turn). I think we need to have high swing speeds back instead. Now everyone and their grandmother can read every hold and feint because cRPG is slow as hell. It leads to the prevalence of footwork over anything else and it is a bad evolution of what "skill" is IMO.
I disagree quite a bit here. In this game humans move like snail-paced robots incapable of complex movement, while horses for some reason act like jet powered unicycles (as in having an insanely good turning radius.)
It is much easier to dodge something coming at you at speed, even if you're running, IRL than in this game because of the flexibility and movement capability the human body has allowing you to dodge, lunge, dive, leap, roll, etc etc. Hell, I'm a fat trucker and even I seem like bruce fucking lee combined with an olympic gymnast compared to the movement and speed characters have in this game.
And still no proper sprint key, wtf.
Obviously that's TW issue, not the mod-devs.
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance
Wrong. With 5 PS I glance on a regular basis on high-end armor that's heirloomed. So much that there's no point dueling people with them - when I attack them they just spam me, I hit first but it glances and I get hit instead. This is with a Masterwork Danish Great Sword, too.
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Wrong. With 5 PS I glance on a regular basis on high-end armor that's heirloomed. So much that there's no point dueling people with them - when I attack them they just spam me, I hit first but it glances and I get hit instead. This is with a Masterwork Danish Great Sword, too.
you mean heirloomed plate armor? you know i rarely noticed glancing with 6 PS, i'll try out a gimmicky agi build one day. I have 69 body armor and rarely do i notice weapon glances that aren't weilded by lvl 10 one handers.
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With 5 PS you only bounce because of sweetspots or a bad speed bonus. At least with a weapon with base damage > 30. A decent, centered hit shouldn't bounce. So Xant's problem is that he sucks.
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Goddammit, I knew there was something fishy going on!
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I've noticed that even with 9 PS my GLA "bounces" on loomed plate. It does damage but i get weapon stunned like i glanced but i "stagger" the plate dude, i need like 4+ hits to finish him.
Armor vs cut is soo strong :(
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Yep. When people reach 70+ armor it starts doing funny shit. The guy who I was bouncing nonstop on with 5 PS had Lordly Transitional and probably lordly gloves. I didn't bounce if we were both standing in the perfect positions but that's retarded, you're never going to get hits in against anyone who doesn't suck like that. When I did bounce was when doing the usual circling thing that everyone but backpedallers do. Normally I wouldn't bounce on black armor like that, but armor heirlooms seriously fuck the game up. And when I had my 18/21 build, I had some funny bounces on Phyrex as well (73 armor IIRC)... attacks that shouldn't bounce bounced.
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Yep. When people reach 70+ armor it starts doing funny shit. The guy who I was bouncing nonstop on with 5 PS had Lordly Transitional and probably lordly gloves. I didn't bounce if we were both standing in the perfect positions but that's retarded, you're never going to get hits in against anyone who doesn't suck like that. When I did bounce was when doing the usual circling thing that everyone but backpedallers do. Normally I wouldn't bounce on black armor like that, but armor heirlooms seriously fuck the game up. And when I had my 18/21 build, I had some funny bounces on Phyrex as well (73 armor IIRC)... attacks that shouldn't bounce bounced.
Funny, I duelled Phyrex as a lv 20 and I never bounced...
I think Paul's explanation is pretty accurate :P
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Well obviously you won't bounce if you never hit him, duh.
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Well obviously you won't bounce if you never hit him, duh.
^this
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Well obviously you won't bounce if you never hit him, duh.
obviously you never dueled dezilagel. :|
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But I saw him in battle and he's not Phyrex :)
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obviously you never dueled dezilagel. :|
I have, why? :|
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Xant's problem is that he sucks.
We break tonights game with these shocking news.
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I have, why? :|
well it's a really good fighter. one of the most troublesome poleaxer around.
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i think polearm animations means less glances but predictable swings, while 2h animations produce more glances but are cheap as fuck (hilt slash, castor swings, lolstab etc).
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Armour is OP as hell, especially heirloomed ones.
BaldRider hit me 10 times before I died, 7 of them were bounces, he has a MW elite schimitar. I fear peasants with wooden swords more then people with heirloomed swords now days, they actually manage to do some damage.
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I fear archers, throwers and xbows they all seem to kill me in less hits than anything else.
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well it's a really good fighter. one of the most troublesome poleaxer around.
He is great at mixing up attacks/blocking but at footwork he is just plain suckage, I could outmaneuver and kill him with 4ath/heavy armor+poleaxe, but when I tried to fight in close he is simply too damn fast for me(could stand a chance with 18agi but 12agi just doesnt do it with heavy armor). Imo tor and that risen_gre_dontremembername(when he used a glaive) are much better with polearms.
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True, that Risen guy is a beast with GLA. And Tor is already well known.
Also mte, you're just crutching on loomed plate :P
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I appreciate all yer lovin' but...
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He is great at mixing up attacks/blocking but at footwork he is just plain suckage, I could outmaneuver and kill him with 4ath/heavy armor+poleaxe, but when I tried to fight in close he is simply too damn fast for me(could stand a chance with 18agi but 12agi just doesnt do it with heavy armor). Imo tor and that risen_gre_dontremembername(when he used a glaive) are much better with polearms.
well tor is the GLA true master. you mean Greifernz.. Greifonz... Greiefenrnz... Grefeirenz? yeah he use the glaive really effectively. but dezilagel is relatively new to cRPG (i don't remember in back in 2010 when i left).
also feint and stab with polearms is much harder due to animations. and while 2h does maximum damage from facehug to full reach, poleaxes full damage blows need perfect positioning.
one of the best all-around polearm infantry (maybe the best) is still blueberrymuffin.
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well tor is the GLA true master. you mean Greifernz.. Greifonz... Greiefenrnz... Grefeirenz? yeah he use the glaive really effectively. but dezilagel is relatively new to cRPG (i don't remember in back in 2010 when i left).
also feint and stab with polearms is much harder due to animations. and while 2h does maximum damage from facehug to full reach, poleaxes full damage blows need perfect positioning.
one of the best all-around polearm infantry (maybe the best) is still blueberrymuffin.
Risen_Greifenherz you mean? The hiltslash abuser :lol:
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I fear archers, throwers and xbows they all seem to kill me in less hits than anything else.
Said the man who was alive after two shots from MW Arbalest and MW Steel bolts, one of the shots from point-blank range.
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Said the man who was alive after two shots from MW Arbalest and MW Steel bolts, one of the shots from point-blank range.
Implying it takes less than three hits from a sword to kill Siiem the armorcrutcher
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Meh, Ive always said its the way you use a weapon that counts more than anything. Ive got a balanced build with my LHB which I overall favour. I VERY RARELY bounce and every time I do I know its my own fault. Sorry guys but 99% of bounces are if you only hit people at the very end of your animation, you're in too close with a stab, or just plain bad positioning. If you have trouble with bouncing, I suggest you change your playstyle one way or another, see if it helps. Ive experimented with a 15 21 build for a 2h and I know phyrex has a 15 24 build. I even went at far as a 12 27 build if any of you guys remember me in my blue tunic over mail , and blue sipahi helm. Agi just requires a different style of play, and i know I really suck without at leat 5 athletics and 140 wpf ideally.
@Dezigael is a properly good poleaxer for a newish player. Just lacking in footwork a little an all those little secret tricks, that all us old timers have to get advantages over enemies. If he were in Mercs, there would be alot I could teach him.
Oh and Corrado you are too kind, Im not that great. And most times I play these days Im just to tired to do more than spamming.
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Buff agi, nerf str. :lol:
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Said the man who was alive after two shots from MW Arbalest and MW Steel bolts, one of the shots from point-blank range.
Probably when I ran around with my 27 str build xD