+30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability

[Bulzur]

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9301.0.html

Bah, this won't show much. All cav players vote "yes", adding on a "let's wait un til throwing gets buffed". So your actually ADMITTING cav is "OP with the current throwing", but don't feel like voting that way ?

I lol'ed at the guy who voted "cavalry is not good enough".     I hope at least all decent people posting in this thread feels like either cav is balanced, or is OP, but not that it needs a buff in order to be effective.

Anyway, since cavs are "waiting" for throwing to get balanced before accepting that something is done to them, we would actually have to wait for 2 big patchs for cav to be balanced. Hum... yeah, i'm going to make a lancer. I'll have enough time.

I just dont believe the last statement which is cav have the upper hand on every map bar town. An archer can use his bow on any map he plays, an infantry can use his equipment just as well on any map.

I sais cav had the overall best options. They either rock on plains, or do decent on others (switching to inf). Infantry gets owned on plains, and does decent on town maps.

Oh, and to Lorenzo's "funny" remark about "did you see how many archers there are nowadays", i can rightfully answer you that range spam is the ONLY offensive counter vs cav. So a lot of infantry, not having enough gold for a horse, or just wanting to kill cavs, are using their ranged alt just to try to deal with thoses numerous new cavalry players.

And, yes, it's this way around, and not "there's was many archers first, so we rolled cavs to deal with them."


Finally, let's finish with a wonderful sentence wich explains pretty well all thoses pages :
"There's no worst deafh than the one who does not wants to listen."

[Overdriven]

Bah, this won't show much. All cav players vote "yes", adding on a "let's wait un til throwing gets buffed". So your actually ADMITTING cav is "OP with the current throwing", but don't feel like voting that way ?

No. It's hoping that you inf will stop moaning when another cav counter comes into play. Seeing as throwing was an awesome cav counter before, it's safe assuming that you'll quiet down once it comes back. We aren't saying it's OP, just hoping for a little peace.

[Torp]

well, i currently think cav is balanced, but IF Fasader is going to nerf it, i just want to make sure he doesn't do what he did to throwing and that he atleast take a look at it after trhowing has been buffed.

[Seawied]

IF Fasader is going to nerf it, i just want to make sure he doesn't do what he did to throwing

I don't think anyone here, aside from gorath, wants any class to be nerfed as badly as throwing was.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

Sigh and then we come to the open plains argument... ok I'm just gonna avoid that cause there is already a thread for it.

There are a lot of archers Bulzur and you know what? I don't mind it, cause half of them are so goddamn mindless it makes high k/d ratios possible for an average player like myself, they arn't OP imo, I'm just saying by keshians logic the mass of archers is not due to cav defence, it's down to them being an OP class. There hasn't been a mass increase in cav that I've seen, its the same as its always been with maybe a few more HA wannabes.

Now I've even certain people commenting on this forum post today, ingame today (and yes you know who you are), walking out into an isolated bit of plain, take cover behind a rock and just stand there shooting. Now whether he expected the next part or not I don't know but I then watched a lancer ride round his side in a wide angle, spot him as an easy target and lance him (this was not a one hit kill). The same player has been posting his posts saying cav is too strong and there is nothing to be done...

It saddens me that such a player cannot recognise that his positioning was wrong ( a good 20 second jog from any support) and that it was his own fault he took the hit not the cavs 'OP build'.

I'm not gonna end on a silly quote as it's not just necessary. I am merely here to defend cavalry as a build not only I, but others play. I like the balance atm, the balance is fair (bar throwing), it's just people blind to their own faults that will ruin this balance...

[Overdriven]

Now I've even certain people commenting on this forum post today, ingame today (and yes you know who you are), walking out into an isolated bit of plain, take cover behind a rock and just stand there shooting. Now whether he expected the next part or not I don't know but I then watched a lancer ride round his side in a wide angle, spot him as an easy target and lance him (this was not a one hit kill). The same player has been posting his posts saying cav is too strong and there is nothing to be done...

It saddens me that such a player cannot recognise that his positioning was wrong ( a good 20 second jog from any support) and that it was his own fault he took the hit not the cavs 'OP build'.

 

Ah lone archers getting pissy.

[Torp]

I don't think anyone here, aside from gorath, wants any class to be nerfed as badly as throwing was.

just take a look at the topic title and then say that again

[Overdriven]

just take a look at the topic title and then say that again

Yup -10 is just dumb. Anyone who has ridden a horse in cRPG would notice that such a big difference on all of them would cripple cav.

[Thomek]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

ok Horselovers, don't get carried away.

OP moderated his stance, and we have since discussed other ways to nerf it.. OF COURSE a blunt nerf across the line of 30hp and -10 speed is a bit ungentle since cRPG is almost at the right spot when it comes to balance generally. Actually the balancers deserve a bouquet of flowers for holding out and keep reading these threads.. We are also getting closer and closer to *Balance*. (Something mind you, is an extremely complex process. Look how long blizzard keep balancing starcraft for instance.. It takes years of playtesting, and we have barely started exploring OP-Combos for strategus battles!)

The closer we get to complete balance, the more whiny these posts are going to look. The anti-whine posts doesn't understand that this is a kind of feedback to the devs.. Taking the temperature of the playerbase.

Now back on topic:
Horselovers must understand that with such great power like choosing your battles, 1-shotting people, unblockable attacks, Higher point of view, Shield that protects the horse, speed to be anywhere when you want to etc.. There must be some serious downside to it.

This downside should be that if you don't think before you charge, or do stupid things, you get killed. If you use your horse in unfavorable terrain you loose.. These super-maneuverable horses you got make sure you don't get punished enough for doing mistakes. You can circle around just out of range, go in and out of battle, precision bump people etc etc..

Speed is fine, with less maneuver it will be risky to race around full speed. Buff HP (or rather armor) somewhat, I dunno how much, but enough that arrows won't shoot the new unmaneuverable horses to pieces in 5 secs.

[Bulzur]

Now I've even certain people commenting on this forum post today, ingame today (and yes you know who you are), walking out into an isolated bit of plain, take cover behind a rock and just stand there shooting. Now whether he expected the next part or not I don't know but I then watched a lancer ride round his side in a wide angle, spot him as an easy target and lance him (this was not a one hit kill). The same player has been posting his posts saying cav is too strong and there is nothing to be done...

It saddens me that such a player cannot recognise that his positioning was wrong ( a good 20 second jog from any support) and that it was his own fault he took the hit not the cavs 'OP build'.

It was me, it was me, it was me !

Hiding behind the rock wasn't  the dumbest solution since :
-It was on a hill, and i had a good view of the surroundings
-A spear can't stab through a rock, whereas i can go around it
-A rock can stop a horse
-ennemy inf wasn't going to the hill, so i was never threatened by infantry
-ennemy archers never noticed me

Now, i did get lanced twice during this map, while being behind the rock, but in each of thoses rounds, it was just because i was too focused on a target. I'm a good shooting archer, but i sometimes lack awareness when i'm focused. And you'll never me raging when i'm killed because of lack of awareness, since that is my fault.

Now, dear Lorenzo (since i saw you on the map), you could also post some screenshots to show how usefull i was behind that little rock. Each round, i killed at least 1 ha wannabee, two horses and one infantry (archer or footman). I can't look everywhere, and ninja horses makes me look behind me often too late.

Your dear example is absolutely irrelevant, just a pure example of how one lone archer plays to help his teammate. Had you noticed and thought a little bit more about this, you'd have seen at least 3 cavs going for me. The time it took them to kill me allowed the rest of my teammates to play joyfully, without being bothered by cav, and i think i did a good job at that.

I excuse myself for this wall of text, but i felt highly offended by Lorenzo's post who didn't have the sense to name the interested, rather leave it obscured, so that, with hope, nobody comes defending himself. And bringing one's play when he's bored and waits to loose his multi to join another server with his clanmates, but still playing to win, is that irrelevant to a discussion about the power of cavs.
Power wich Thomek has resumed rather well in his very few posts here, but that all cav addict just can't accept. And now i'll be rude and tell it directly. Do all of you know why thoses very few cav players are so actively defending their playstyle ? Because they are part of the noob cavs. They can't bear being compared to Kerrigan, Torben and others, because they know they can't do half as much as thoses. And they know that thoses few dedicated players, who have played since a long time, don't care about a -2 maneuver/speed and + 30hp, since it wouldn't change much for them. But here we have players who NEEDS it to have kills. To have their epenis grow larger, while slaughtering peasants, afkers, or runners from behind, with their noiseless horse.

Here it is. You made me said everything i felt after reading Lorenzo's stupid post. You can blame him for that, if it makes you feel better. I am a dedicated archer, can, and will still kill as many horses and riders as i can. And after some thoughts, i would never fell in the easy part of "if you can't best them, join them". I'll slaughter all of thoses cavs addicts, who don't understand why they die when facing a lone archer hiding behind a rock. And i'll take pleasure in it. Cya in game, fellow. Blod will be shed. 

(click to show/hide)

It's not me, it's my other personality who wrote this, i'm innocent ! 

Edit for below :
What i utterly dislike about Lorenzo's comment, is that he completely forget my usefullness, and just state how i get lanced by behind. Wich is a completely subjective point of view. Or you take it as it is : "This player with a 8-3 score, number 4 of the team, stands behind a rock, kills a HA, and while targetting a cav, gets lanced from behind" and makes comments in this posts wich is important in his opinion, or he doesn't say anything. -_-

Oh, and the -2 maneuver, +30hp is what i thought would be a good balance, since Lorenzo is speaking about ME, why not posting MY opinion on this topic. The -10 maneuver is plain silly, as all, even the OP, agreed too. So cav players like Lorenzo always referring to it are just lameless bunch of people who don't want this topic to reach a conclusion. They just want it to last forever, since they believe the longer it last, the longer they'll stay unchanged. Hate them. But i love Chagan and Kerrigan, they're really good and it's always an honor to kill them fair and square.^^
The thread you pointed is bullshit, because you didn't take into account the modification devs took to it, being : If mrA, playing as classA, votes to buff classA, then his vote is Null. If he voted to nerf classA, then his vote is doubled. If he votes to buff/nerf classB, then his vote is taken into account.
At least, this way, we don't see players mainly voting to buff their playstyle. Do you honestly believe horses need a buff ? Do you honestly agree with thoses 192 people voting to buff horses ? I anyway, only voted to buff throwing and nerf polearms in this thread, if i recall right. Since i didn't want a nerf for horses, but a damn balance....

[Overdriven]

I excuse myself for this wall of text, but i felt highly offended by Lorenzo's post who didn't have the sense to name the interested, rather leave it obscured, so that, with hope, nobody comes defending himself. And bringing one's play when he's bored and waits to loose his multi to join another server with his clanmates, but still playing to win, is that irrelevant to a discussion about the power of cavs.

Power wich Thomek has resumed rather well in his very few posts here, but that all cav addict just can't accept. And now i'll be rude and tell it directly. Do all of you know why thoses very few cav players are so actively defending their playstyle ? Because they are part of the noob cavs. They can't bear being compared to Kerrigan, Torben and others, because they know they can't do half as much as thoses. And they know that thoses few dedicated players, who have played since a long time, don't care about a -2 maneuver and + 30hp, since it wouldn't change much for them. But here we have players who NEEDS it to have kills.

He made it pretty bloody obvious who it was. Let's see. Who's an archer who's been actively posting about nerfing cav for a while in various threads. You'd have to be clueless not to know considering you've stated several times your archer status in various nerf threads. I got it straight away...hence the  .

Anyway. Where did the -2 come from? It's been wide open so far and I haven't seen a single solid suggestion that anyone has agreed upon in terms of nerfing cav manoeuvre. Most people have said is as a general, buff HP, reduce manoeuvre without stating specifics. And no, those few dedicated players (of which I've spoken to a couple), have suggested to me in the past to stop posting in these threads because no one takes such heavy anti-cav talk seriously. That's why you don't hear from them. Besides...Lorenzo was jav cav pre throwing nerf, so he's not a lancer usually. You can't really compare him to dedicated ones if that was a rather unsubtle dig at him. However, pre throwing nerf he would of had your arse pinned to the ground with javs before you could notch an arrow

I just post because I hate to see a one sided argument and if someone comes in with a nerf cav thing, there should be a counter argument.

Fact is, this thread: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5439.0.html would suggest that cav really isn't that big an issue for ooo lets say 800 people or so and a tidy 192 actually want to see them buffed. SHOCK HORROR. The fact that 2h and polearms are more of a concern from that poll makes me laugh.

It's pretty simple. The people making these threads are the same few over and over. As are the same few who are supporting cav. Forums discussions are rarely representative because the majority of people just ignore them, especially when they are so blatant.

[Seawied]

just take a look at the topic title and then say that again

To be honest, I think Kesh just doesn't realize how horrid that change would be.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

Hehe Bulzur that is a nice wall of text ;) half of which I cba to respond to because it's a waste of my time.

I didn't mention your name cause it was pretty well implied the illusive character was. But thanks for coming forward and admitting your errors (in a roundabout way) ;) and just for the record the reason you survived is cause I chased that cav off... I'm such a good person its sometimes unbelievable

You are correct you could have been been less intelligent in your positioning... you could hae been on an empty flat part of the plain, none the less ;)
- Sure you had a good view, sadly that cav still got round your back unnoticed...
- a spear doesnt need to stab through a rock if he got behind you
- a rock can stop a horse, if the horse rides into it... maybe you think all us cav are that stupid?
- When has infantry been a worry since you can see it coming a mile off
- I admit the rock was good cover against archer fire, but I don't think it was worth standing on your own to take a position where archers couldnt see you

Now I am a player not the paparazzi, so asking me to present screenshots is something I can't do ;) Neither do I give an individual player so much attention to observe him a whole 5 rounds, I want to play the game too I saw what I saw and found it just funny that we were being lectured by a player that makes a perfect example for my own argument.

Now we can argue to our hearts content but I don't think our opinions will change. Cav players will defend themselves and whiners and so called heroes such as Bulzur will demand justice from the nerf hammer. This is the way this community works, let the Dev's decide the matter. I have said how I think it is and given my examples ;) I almost hope we have a nerf for cav just because us cav will stay get high k/d's on all those archers that think a rock = 360 shelter

It has been nice Bulzur I leave the rest to the next sorry sod to try and defend cavs balance

[Bulzur]

If you were such a good person, you would have prevented him to attack me in the beginning ! I was counting on all the cav behind, just staying peacefully, but infantry can't rely on them.

Also... you definitely don't play an archer. You think you can rely on an unknown pikeman ? Do that, and you'll get couched by behind because the pikeman can't watch everywhere. You think there was roofs on that map ? All of them could be ridden by cavs. Could have well said that the map was a plain map, rather than a town map, for all it mattered. So i was staying behind a rock on a plain map. Far from the main group who is picked up by other people. I actually went a bit unnoticed. And did good.
But no, Mr Lorenzo just takes this opportunity of an error from me, to say that this archer plays like this (and since he did that one time, he probably does that all the time, right) and this his arguments are irrelevant. If you can't defend against a person's argument, try to attack the person, hey ?
Hate you.

[Overdriven]

The thread you pointed is bullshit, because you didn't take into account the modification devs took to it, being : If mrA, playing as classA, votes to buff classA, then his vote is Null. If he voted to nerf classA, then his vote is doubled. If he votes to buff/nerf classB, then his vote is taken into account.
At least, this way, we don't see players mainly voting to buff their playstyle. Do you honestly believe horses need a buff ? Do you honestly agree with thoses 192 people voting to buff horses ? I anyway, only voted to buff throwing and nerf polearms in this thread, if i recall right. Since i didn't want a nerf for horses, but a damn balance....

I don't reckon it's bullshit. Yes it has to be taken with a pinch of salt because some people are obviously going to vote for certain things related to their class. But at the same time the buff horses/nerf horses come in the midrange of both categories. The main issues are pointed out blatantly. That being that throwing is nerfed. Everything else appears to be relatively balanced considering the votes are all a close percentage of each other. That would suggest to me that things are pretty much right and that even taking into account people voting just to spite a class they hate, or trying to get support for their own class, it means horses really aren't that much of an issue if the two votes cancel each other out and result in each being mid range in the nerf/buff sections.

Again I think it all has to be taken horse by horse if indeed it does at all. A straight up all round change won't work. And extra HP would simply give the cav more time to readjust to their slightly worse manoeuvre. So it really seems like unnecessary work for the devs when there are greater things to concentrate on. And if the multi clan battle has been anything to go by, cav aren't all that dangerous against properly organised opponents, so that has to be taken into account with the hopeful return of strategus. I just think it's a whole load of hoo ha for no real reason.

If things are really that close, then tweaking things more when they don't necessarily need it can only lead to future unbalance and greater issues.

And just for lols:

I leave the rest to the next sorry sod to try and defend cavs balance