We Are Reverting

[Rebelyell]

I think that nerf to bump slash was bad idea, for example morningstar is almost unusable from horseback due to shit dmg after bump.

[Gravoth_iii]

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Not quite; imagine a player has a jittery hand, thus consistently misses the pixel he wants to aim at by an average of 10 pixels into any direction. He wants to aim at the center of a 20 pixels sized head with a pinpoint accurate weapon. Instead, he slips as usual and hits a point 10 pixels away from the center of the head. Due to the pinpoint accurate weapon, the shot hits the 20 pixels sized head missing the center by 10 pixels. It is still a headshot.

In the next case, imagine the jittery player uses a weapon with a 20 pixels sized crosshair. He wants to aim at the center of the 20 pixels sized head again, but slips by 10 pixels. 50% of the 20 pixels sized crosshair is now outside the area of the 20 pixels sized head, meaning he will miss with a likelihood of 50%.

Now assume a player with perfect aim and a weapon with a 20 pixels wide crosshair. He aims at the center of the 20 pixels sized head, doesn't slip unlike the jittery one, and the shot hits despite the inaccuracy of the weapon because the crosshair perfectly overlaps the head.

The pinpoint accurate system does the jittery player a favor, because he is able to land shots he otherwise wouldn't. The perfectly aiming player is indifferent about pinpoint accuracy or the 20 pixels sized crosshair, because he hits either way.

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.

This only applies to that certain range, increase it and suddenly the pixels of the head are smaller than the pixels of the crosshair, so the rng becomes a factor. And what range is this based on, 10 meters? or 30? if 10, then thats not really a valid range to balance around, 30 sure but then the reticule difference between the two would be so minor it would take insane effort to get it to that point, compared to just making it pinpoint. And even then it would make such a slight difference its just not worth.

I think that nerf to bump slash was bad idea, for example morningstar is almost unusable from horseback due to shit dmg after bump.

I've always been of the opinion that bumps are insanely strong, now at least they are leaning more towards a supportive action, instead of a free hit through block. Bump slash onehit deaths were not fun at all. Now youre simply forced to either hit unaware targets in the back, or bump as a supportive move. I think it was a necessary means for balance.

[Rico]

This only applies to that certain range, increase it and suddenly the pixels of the head are smaller than the pixels of the crosshair, so the rng becomes a factor.

Whenever you cannot compensate for the crosshair size with more careful aim, it might be smart to reposition and get closer to the target. There is always a skill-component involved, either in the aiming, or in the decision to move. Rng is not outside your control, in this case.

[Gravoth_iii]

Whenever you cannot compensate for the crosshair size with more careful aim, it might be smart to reposition and get closer to the target. There is always a skill-component involved, either in the aiming, or in the decision to move. Rng is not outside your control, in this case.

But like i mentioned, what range would this be balanced for, because at more than very close-range, the pixels are so small that the reticule sizes would be very specific to fit your point. And then it would just feel more consistent to have full precision instead anyway. It wouldnt be an enjoyable skill increase, and to the player it would feel like rng, and not a misposition, or non-perfect shot.

[Rico]

But like i mentioned, what range would this be balanced for

Arbalest has the potential to land headshots across the map, Hunting Crossbow is a reliable hitter on short distance. We know this by experience. Put the other crossbows in between, make missile speed reflect this concept, scale up requirements in a near-linear fashion, make speed rating anti-proportional to crosshair size, and you have the old balance, which made perfect sense.

Applying the skill vs. rng argumentation, players who manage to pull off long-distance headshots with inaccurate low-tier crossbows would be the most skilled. Weren would probably 100% agree with this, as a dedicated pre-patch Hunting Crossbow user. If you tell him he gets his kills from mere chance, he will chuckle.

[Jona]

Keep ranged accurate, just lower missile speeds (and maybe damage? Idk how good/bad it is currently) across the board.  This way the skilled archers will know how to both aim and lead their (moving) targets. There should still be some small amount of RNG for the low-level or un-optimized  archer builds out there, but the high(er) level, dedicated archers should be accurate, and need to compensate with their knowledge of projectile speeds.

I'd just like to point out that looking at the game through nerf-goggles will only make the game less enjoyable. A faster paced, more rewarding experience will come from buffs, where things are actually enjoyable to play and not gimped to fuck.

Faster paced is indeed better, however not everyone is blessed with 10 ping, so you have to find the sweetspot between pace and lag. I think that the current meta is pretty decent in that regard, and I'm not quite certain why some still view agi as completely game breaking, I think the strength-agility dynamic might be as balanced as it has ever been currently. Anyone can break/abuse animations if they are "skilled" enough, doesn't matter if they have 1wpf or 200wpf.

[Pandor_Archer]

What is STR archer? All good archers that i know have not less that 21 agi. The problem nowdays that missile speed is extremly high. That makes archery easy and too many ppl can be good at it. Thats why archers are bane atm. Tell me if i wrong but situation before last patch was ok? Im up for - missile speed but + accuracy, lowering missile speed will also lower dmg. I agree about mele revert.

[Pandor_Archer]

Not quite; imagine a player has a jittery hand, thus consistently misses the pixel he wants to aim at by an average of 10 pixels into any direction. He wants to aim at the center of a 20 pixels sized head with a pinpoint accurate weapon. Instead, he slips as usual and hits a point 10 pixels away from the center of the head. Due to the pinpoint accurate weapon, the shot hits the 20 pixels sized head missing the center by 10 pixels. It is still a headshot.

In the next case, imagine the jittery player uses a weapon with a 20 pixels sized crosshair. He wants to aim at the center of the 20 pixels sized head again, but slips by 10 pixels. 50% of the 20 pixels sized crosshair is now outside the area of the 20 pixels sized head, meaning he will miss with a likelihood of 50%.

Now assume a player with perfect aim and a weapon with a 20 pixels wide crosshair. He aims at the center of the 20 pixels sized head, doesn't slip unlike the jittery one, and the shot hits despite the inaccuracy of the weapon because the crosshair perfectly overlaps the head.

The pinpoint accurate system does the jittery player a favor, because he is able to land shots he otherwise wouldn't. The perfectly aiming player is indifferent about pinpoint accuracy or the 20 pixels sized crosshair, because he hits either way.

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.

My english skill isnt that good to be sure that i 100% understood u, but u mean no mater how many accuracy u have all u need to get enemy head in a center of your crosshair no mater how big it is? Well if so its totaly wrong coz arrow most likely wont fly at the center.

[Gmnotutoo]

I view the combat pacing at this moment to be on the slow side and I'd prefer an increase in tempo.

I forgot who mentioned it but I do not want to see the strength difficulty increased on weapons.

[Molly]

Keep ranged accurate, just lower missile speeds (and maybe damage? Idk how good/bad it is currently) across the board.  This way the skilled archers will know how to both aim and lead their (moving) targets. There should still be some small amount of RNG for the low-level or un-optimized  archer builds out there, but the high(er) level, dedicated archers should be accurate, and need to compensate with their knowledge of projectile speeds.

Faster paced is indeed better, however not everyone is blessed with 10 ping, so you have to find the sweetspot between pace and lag. I think that the current meta is pretty decent in that regard, and I'm not quite certain why some still view agi as completely game breaking, I think the strength-agility dynamic might be as balanced as it has ever been currently. Anyone can break/abuse animations if they are "skilled" enough, doesn't matter if they have 1wpf or 200wpf.

This sounds both very good to me.
It used to be like Arbalest reloads really slow but the distance coverage and accuracy was the reward while the light and hunting crossbow offered fast reloading for players who wanted to stick to the main bulk of the team.
With the current reload speed the latter approach to xbows is hardly possible anymore.
Personally, I mostly went with the Crossbow as standard weapon and then switched between the Arba and Hunting xbow when the map made certain adjustments to play style reasonable. That was actually the part that made me enjoy the class a lot. Right now the low tier xbows reload so slow that there barely is any advantage in that regard to the Crossbow nor Arbalest. Therefore I simply stopped switching completely. It took away a huge part of the xbow gameplay, imho.

Personally I think the balancing between the weapon trees has never been better - pole/1h/2h are all competitive across the board with each other. If something should be changed in that regard, only minor adjustments please.

[Gmnotutoo]

For the strength archer thing, I've had a strength archer build for the last five years and the only thing that seemed to change is the missile speed being faster. You're seeing more strength archers today because of all the shiny new bows.

Decrease the PD req of some of these new bows and slow the missile speed a bit, leave 6pd as the highest number except for event bows.

[the real god emperor]

Great work guys.

Reverting weapon hitboxes to old times is a good idea and I don't see "bouncing off armor" as a negative effect, its a part of the game mechanic.And since all the armors are going to get higher STR requirements, that perk is necessary for STR people, since they can't move around a lot. In the current state of cRPG, a Katana guy with 12 STR can easily win against a STR build guy, because the damage is insane and the glancing from armor is not happening at all.Also my experience against stabs; I think they are ridiculously fast. Stab weapons are fast and small already, the animation makes it instant. When you are dealing pierce damage + with the high speed bonus the regular thrust damage of the weapon is less relevant. The glance mechanic needs to come back, because the most effective tactic against an agi build stabber as a STR character is to hug the enemy as much as you can. This technique doesn't work since stabs almost never glance.
Also again about sweetspots; any heavy weapon -stun weapon- gives you a good chance of an instant hit, since most of them have enormous hitbox, a lot bigger than their shape, you can just spam easily. Stun recover time is irrelevant, it's the animation that breaks it.This applies to Steel and Military picks too.
Crossbows definitely need a STR change yes, although 24 STR is making crossbowmen have weird incomplete builds and make them full time stationary instead of relocating quickly, that is actually good since crossbowmen can't kite forever anymore but now they can't flank the enemy, which is how crossbowmen should be played in my opinion. I am sure a balance to that will be figured out.

These are my thoughts, my experiences. And again nice work, but I wish the heads up was earlier than that.

[matt2507]

lmao, yeah ok he didn't blackmail you he just said he would stop playing and not do whatever it was he was doing if you didn't implement his "suggestions" aka godawful shit that only a delusional ranged-only player with absolutely no grasp on basic game mechanics might think were ok. it doesnt matter how much he contributed, if his suggestions were bad they should have been ignored. i don't know what raylin did in terms of items, exactly, but i'm willing to bet theres someone else out there who can retexture rus scale models from 5 years ago. honestly if i were in charge i would have just banned him the instant he started threatening to leave if his suggestions were ignored. like really, read this sentence back to yourself: "announced that he will take matters into his own hands and think about playing significantly less if the community were to reject his changes" why did you listen to this ape?

also re turnrate nerf, i dare you to find a post from a top 10% melee player supporting it, the only people who ever thought it was a good idea were the trashcans that lost duels with jumping pikemen

badplayer is responsible for a lot of good balance changes, and he repeatedly called for nerfs to heavy cav even when he was crutching heavy cav on battle for months on end

What Rico didn't have really understand is that I have planned to play less, whenever if the changes was made or not, accepted or not. It have never been a condition to make my work accepted. I have asked to both Rico and Dupre before doing anything and I got the authorization. That's all.

My changes was bad because I was unable to finish them because of the broken updater. If everything was working well, all would have be done in two weeks. Unfortunately, it was not the case.

Now, think what you want but if you think again that I have to cry and blackmail like a 5 years old baby to have the ability to make something for this mod (where I spend my time since almost two years now), sorry but with all my respect: Fuck off 

[Rebelyell]

Great work guys.

Reverting weapon hitboxes to old times is a good idea and I don't see "bouncing off armor" as a negative effect, its a part of the game mechanic.And since all the armors are going to get higher STR requirements, that perk is necessary for STR people, since they can't move around a lot. In the current state of cRPG, a Katana guy with 12 STR can easily win against a STR build guy, because the damage is insane and the glancing from armor is not happening at all.Also my experience against stabs; I think they are ridiculously fast. Stab weapons are fast and small already, the animation makes it instant. When you are dealing pierce damage + with the high speed bonus the regular thrust damage of the weapon is less relevant. The glance mechanic needs to come back, because the most effective tactic against an agi build stabber as a STR character is to hug the enemy as much as you can. This technique doesn't work since stabs almost never glance.
Also again about sweetspots; any heavy weapon -stun weapon- gives you a good chance of an instant hit, since most of them have enormous hitbox, a lot bigger than their shape, you can just spam easily. Stun recover time is irrelevant, it's the animation that breaks it.This applies to Steel and Military picks too.
Crossbows definitely need a STR change yes, although 24 STR is making crossbowmen have weird incomplete builds and make them full time stationary instead of relocating quickly, that is actually good since crossbowmen can't kite forever anymore but now they can't flank the enemy, which is how crossbowmen should be played in my opinion. I am sure a balance to that will be figured out.

These are my thoughts, my experiences. And again nice work, but I wish the heads up was earlier than that.

Actually hitbox of all weapons is straight shaft that is centred in hand.

What Rico didn't have really understand is that I have planned to play less, whenever if the changes was made or not, accepted or not. It have never been a condition to make my work accepted. I have asked to both Rico and Dupre before doing anything and I got the authorization. That's all.

My changes was bad because I was unable to finish them because of the broken updater. If everything was working well, all would have be done in two weeks. Unfortunately, it was not the case.

Now, think what you want but if you think again that I have to cry and blackmail like a 5 years old baby to have the ability to make something for this mod (where I spend my time since almost two years now), sorry but with all my respect: Fuck off 

I understand your position but you have to admit that current balance of ranged is broken.

[Mr.K.]

Just reverting archery won't fix the problem in any way. They were already overpowered and easy to play before the patch and the huge damage against cavalry is a problem that needs to be solved. We need to move from the Tydeus -era "everything should beat everything" balancing to a more "rock-paper-scissors" approach that would make every class strong but have their weaknesses. Not sure how to implement this, but buffing heavy cavalry against ranged would be a big start and making throwers a more cavalry killing force like it used to be with one-hitting jarids before the speedbonus was nerfed couple of years ago...