A final solution to 2H and PO unrealistic spamming.

[Frell]

This is the one thing that currently drives me crazy in MB:

A basic encounter:

I have a shield and scimitar
I approach someone with a Katana
Hold shield up to prepare for the spam
Swing swing swing swing
Let down shield to attempt to get a quick overhead out
Caught mid swing, put shield up again
Katana user continues swinging, and starts running side to side trying to get around me
Hits me out of no where, stun causes me to lower shield, and I am killed in 3 more quick swings.


So this led me to look for realistic solutions to this problem, rather than just nerfing the swords / PO to be what they arent. I've watched many youtube videos demonstrating swords to find the simple solution as to why this was never done in actual combat.


For starters:
2H damage SHOULD be high, its more force, more momentum = harder to stop = more armor damage.
The swing should be fast, alot of weight, more inertia.
Reach should remain, it is the main benefit of polearms

So then whats the problem?

Well first, lets tackle some reality issues with this. Lets take my previous example:

I have a shield and scimitar
I approach someone with a Katana
Hold shield up to prepare for the spam
1Swing swing swing swing
Let down shield to attempt to get a quick overhead out
Caught mid swing, put shield up again
2Katana user continues swinging, and starts running side to side trying to get around me
3Hits me out of no where, stun causes me to lower shield, and I am killed in 3 more quick swings.

1. While I said the swing should be fast, the time between swings should not be fast. One swing is very fast, because of the momentum. This momentum takes time to stop and for a new swing to start. While in MB, once a swing is finished it snaps right back to the cocked back swing, this is unrealistic. After this one very violent and powerful swing, the 2hander should be vulnerable as his sword is returned to its starting position. Obviously the slower the sword is, the more of a chance that one hit could have killed you. You should be gambling on your accuracy.

2. This angers me the most. Why is it that when I hold up my shield, my turn and movement speed is reduced, but the opponent may move very swiftly while swinging unrealistically violent? Slow down movement foot speed during swings please. Pick up a 5 pound weight and try and even jog with it in only one hand, or run in circles while swinging like a sword. You'll see what I mean. This goes for all weapons actually.

3. This really goes along with number 2. While I can't argue with the stun, as it is a realistic affect and provides a split second of weakness for your teammates to take a whack, but you should not feel overwhelmed while fighting two handers in terms of standing in front of a lawnmower without the cover.

WAAHHH WAHHHH BUT WE HAVE 2 MANUALLY BLOCK!!1!!!1!1!!11

Haha this is the most common bullshit excuse I get from people opposed to 2H nerfs. This is rarely the case, ever. Go play a simple siege match, 98% of 2h users will barely ever block.

The trick is, swing as fast as you can repeatedly and hope you hit them before they hit you, and take advantage of the stun to kill them.

With my suggestion, you would approach someone with a 2h, both of you with your guard up. Player A would swing, Player B blocks, swings back, Player A blocks. This would all be at a slower pace to show the true power of the swords. Player A goes for an overhead, Player B stabs A in the stomach.

What will this change?

For one, Im trying to tactically fight, not try to stick my hand through lawnmower blades and hope I pull it back out unharmed. This will slow down fights to a more believable level in the game, where you will guess your opponents next move, because it will count.

Right now 2h/PO are the most frustratingly unrealistic classes in the game. Sure you can hold up your shield and block every hit until your shield breaks in 20 swings, but is the attacker getting harmed from this? No, hes just encountered a more defensive player, which is completely realistic (although id say say you should take small amounts of blunt damage while being attacked with your shield up).


So take this into consideration. And 2h spam exploiters will probably be against this post, obviously, as they're "skills" rely on this fault in the game mechanics.

[Tears of Destiny]

I think Walt (or perhaps someone else?) already proved that the game mechanics support a "Player A swings, Player B blocks and then the reverse, rinse and repeat." It is also worth noting that this was during 0.220 and we are currently on I think 0.223, so this "study" of his may be out of date but I doubt that.

In my limited experience, it is mainly player timing that influences how big of a "window" you have to swing back. The problem of certain weapons swinging faster will of course cut down your "window" of opportunity if your opponent uses a fast weapon, and the more wpf your opponent has the smaller yet your window shrinks. Against a "Spammitar" build or any other very fast weapon with high wpf and a player that attacks as fast as he can, your window will be extremely small, but it is still rather possible to slip in between his strikes as long as your timing is very much on the ball.

Easier said then done, though.

In a way though, your suggestion of

With my suggestion, you would approach someone with a 2h, both of you with your guard up. Player A would swing, Player B blocks, swings back, Player A blocks. This would all be at a slower pace to show the true power of the swords. Player A goes for an overhead, Player B stabs A in the stomach.

is true, just rather very fast and not at all slow and thus has a high learning curve that can be devastating if the player you are facing is a significantly higher skill set then you.

That is the main thing, I find, that the player skill involved in duels can very much tip the scale of a battle. If you were to hand Tyrian the weakest weapon in the game at a level 1 peasant build I would fully expect to have an extremely hard time killing him with any of my characters due to him having "mastered" that damnable timing window, where as I have not.

Disclaimer, this post is written in the style of my originals and is not one of my usual more "recent" style of blithering trolling. If I am proven wrong I do intent to acknowledge it and not lead the thread on another merry chase typical of the past month.

[Frell]

It is still not realistic. Even if you swing a light 5 pound weight like a sword, try bringing it back up and doing an entire full swing immediately after, you'll see its actually pretty challenging and any more weight could actually do damage to you.

Maybe the speed of the item in the item shop should be its true speed, and the higher your wpf the closer to the true speed you are.


Supa sword
Length: 98
Speed: 95
Recovery: 45
Current recov: 13

Where recovery is the time between the swings to pick the sword pack up and basically reload, and current recovery displays how fast it is at your current wpf.


As to actually being skilled with the sword, they're being skilled in the wrong thing. They've become a master (2handers) at exploiting the speed to their advantage in most 1v1 or group battles. What they should be skilled at is basically predicting the next move, like in UFC fights. Or knowing when to strike during their overhead, or overhead while they swing etc. As for shielders who can usually find their way through the lawnmower, they should not have to deal with that much overwhelming power to do damage. This is extremely frustrating to every other class, knowing you'll probably die soon.

[Tzar]

ohh look is this time again...

another 1h noob that haven't figured out since he have a forcefield rmb click ability he might not be able to get the same benefits of what 2h/pole users have in dmg/speed..


slry this is gettin old yawn.....

[rustyspoon]

This topic comes up a lot. The fact of the matter is, overall 1 handers ARE faster than 2 handers. When you're relatively new, spamming is hard to counter. Once you play for a bit, you'll find that a spammer is the easiest player to take out.

Some helpful hints for playing a 1H + shield against a 2h/polearm:

1. Take a couple shield hits to find their rhythm.
2. Swing as soon as you hear the ding.
3. Footwork, footwork, footwork. It's the most important, but most overlooked part of the game. Especially important for shielders.
4. DON'T TURTLE. Turtling gets you killed fast.
5. Left swing. I've found that against a speedy 2 hander they can connect with a side swing before I do an overhead. So in those situations, side swing.

Hope this helps.

[Tears of Destiny]

It is still not realistic. Even if you swing a light 5 pound weight like a sword, try bringing it back up and doing an entire full swing immediately after, you'll see its actually pretty challenging and any more weight could actually do damage to you.

With all due respect, a 5 lb weight is not balanced as a sword is (center of mass is different, it is not designed to glide through the air, and most of the mass is centered around one small area and is ludicrously concentrated compared to a weapon), nor do you use the same muscles that a swordsman uses and thus those muscles are not as "trained."

Note that a bodybuilder has a different set of muscles that an olympic swimmer has from a poloplayer. Drawing back a 60lb bow is a great example of how different muscles are used.

I personally can toss hay bales with ease and sling feed bags around without a thought, yet see inexperienced "strong guys" topple the first few times due to lack of experience, or exerting the wrong muscles and wearing themselves out faster. I am not magically stronger then they are though...

[Frell]

ohh look is this time again...

another 1h noob that haven't figured out since he have a forcefield rmb click ability he might not be able to get the same benefits of what 2h/pole users have in dmg/speed..


slry this is gettin old yawn.....

Actually no, currently the Nodachi is the sword I use when Im not near archers, and the only way to really get kills with it is to swing it violently, because if I try to fight another 2h fairly, I know they'll just swing anyway. Haha forcefield. So cute, even though it lasts maybe 30 seconds of hits? The window when a 1 hander moves his shield to strike is much bigger than when a 1 hander tries to sneak in between the spamswings of a 2 hander.

So because we get slowed down, lose our ability to attack, have a weaker weapon, and can take hits without damage for a small amount of time, we're the ones that are unfair?

While you guys usually break shields anyway, have a farther reach, can swing as fast as us (sometimes faster), instantly block at any time during the fight, and continue swinging and retain completely agile footwork and speed?

This topic comes up a lot. The fact of the matter is, overall 1 handers ARE faster than 2 handers. When you're relatively new, spamming is hard to counter. Once you play for a bit, you'll find that a spammer is the easiest player to take out.

Some helpful hints for playing a 1H + shield against a 2h/polearm:

1. Take a couple shield hits to find their rhythm.
2. Swing as soon as you hear the ding.
3. Footwork, footwork, footwork. It's the most important, but most overlooked part of the game. Especially important for shielders.
4. DON'T TURTLE. Turtling gets you killed fast.
5. Left swing. I've found that against a speedy 2 hander they can connect with a side swing before I do an overhead. So in those situations, side swing.

Hope this helps.

Swords only need a slight toning down, this thread was directed towards pole arms and axes also. But what im asking is, is spamming realistic? No. So far the game has a pretty involving feel of real combat, till you get to the spammers who would have already thrown out their backs or dislocated their shoulder.

With all due respect, a 5 lb weight is not balanced as a sword is (center of mass is different, it is not designed to glide through the air, and most of the mass is centered around one small area and is ludicrously concentrated compared to a weapon), nor do you use the same muscles that a swordsman uses and thus those muscles are not as "trained."

Note that a bodybuilder has a different set of muscles that an olympic swimmer has from a poloplayer. Drawing back a 60lb bow is a great example of how different muscles are used.

I personally can toss hay bales with ease and sling feed bags around without a thought, yet see inexperienced "strong guys" topple the first few times due to lack of experience, or exerting the wrong muscles and wearing themselves out faster. I am not magically stronger then they are though...

Actually, 5 pounds dispersed over a large stick or rod is harder to return to your starting position. Im not requesting a 6 seconds dragging of your sword on the ground to pick it up, but not a lightning fast return to the next swing. But the weapon length is usually proportional to weight, so the longer the reach the more the penalty. Right now a good example of how most 2h swords should be is right around danish/flamberg level.

[Matey]

This is the one thing that currently drives me crazy in MB:

A basic encounter:

I have a shield and scimitar
I approach someone with a Katana
Hold shield up to prepare for the spam
Swing swing swing swing
Let down shield to attempt to get a quick overhead out
Caught mid swing, put shield up again
Katana user continues swinging, and starts running side to side trying to get around me
Hits me out of no where, stun causes me to lower shield, and I am killed in 3 more quick swings.

what is your build? are you wearing plate armour with 9 agi? i play shielder are my main class and i have no problem counter attacking 99.9% of players. the only guys who often hit me before my counter lands is cyranule and others who have mastered the castor swing... but ive gotten used to dealing with that too and can usually hit  them first when they try it. spammers who cant manual block should be a piece of cake when you have a shield. the guys who scare me are the ones who can block so damn well that they last the 10-30 hits it takes to break my shield... and then out block me when i gain all the extra speed for having lost my shield (im not the best manual blocker out there, but im good enough to pose a threat to most players even after the shield goes).

i dont really disagree with you in terms of what is realistic... but i also dont have the same problem as you. i think 2handers are in a pretty good spot right now, they are still very powerful and have the highest potential for dueling, but they arent unbeatable, and they are at a big disadvantage in 2v1 when skill levels of all 3 players are reasonable equal.

[Frell]

What Im noticing is you are all so used to it being in the game, you're telling me tips on how to deal with it rather than asking yourself if it is realistic. And I say again, Im not asking for a crippling penalty. Im more interested in 2h becoming the realistic berserk weapons they really are, where one hit is extremely devastating, but you can't dish them out so often.

AOC got me to this game, and if you have ever played it, in mb 2h are like the man at arms.

Im
16 str
13 agi

95 1h

95 2h

5 ironflesh and powerstrike

I wear

Armet

Gothic plate

Iron greeves

Mail gloves

elite cav shield, scimitar, and nodachi

And I can still get overwhelmed by a spammer


My suggestion mostly applies to pole arms and axes, and some of the bigger 2 handed swords.

[rustyspoon]

What Im noticing is you are all so used to it being in the game, you're telling me tips on how to deal with it rather than asking yourself if it is realistic. And I say again, Im not asking for a crippling penalty. Im more interested in 2h becoming the realistic berserk weapons they really are, where one hit is extremely devastating, but you can't dish them out so often.

AOC got me to this game, and if you have ever played it, in mb 2h are like the man at arms.

Im
16 str
13 agi

95 1h

95 2h

5 ironflesh and powerstrike

I wear

Armet

Gothic plate

Iron greeves

Mail gloves

elite cav shield, scimitar, and nodachi

And I can still get overwhelmed by a spammer

First off, realism doesn't equal good game design. Adding a mechanic like stamina would make the game so slow and boring. The REAL problem though is your build and equipment. With that build and equipment, you SHOULD be outspammed.

You already have low WPF and then you're wearing heavy armor on top of it. I'm guessing your adjusted WPF must be around 75 or so.

[Matey]

oh man... no wonder.
you have no speed at all.
you have bad wpf, mediocre agility and a ton of weight.

i play shield with 12 str 24 agi, 8 athletics, i wear gambeson with padder coif, lammellar gloves and light leather boots to keep my weight down. i have 172 wpf in 1 handers... you dont have to go as crazy on speed as i do... but damn man. shielders are not supposed to run around in heavy plate... they are light or medium armour.

[rustyspoon]

What Im noticing is you are all so used to it being in the game, you're telling me tips on how to deal with it rather than asking yourself if it is realistic. And I say again, Im not asking for a crippling penalty. Im more interested in 2h becoming the realistic berserk weapons they really are, where one hit is extremely devastating, but you can't dish them out so often.

AOC got me to this game, and if you have ever played it, in mb 2h are like the man at arms.

Im
16 str
13 agi

95 1h

95 2h

5 ironflesh and powerstrike

I wear

Armet

Gothic plate

Iron greeves

Mail gloves

elite cav shield, scimitar, and nodachi

And I can still get overwhelmed by a spammer


My suggestion mostly applies to pole arms and axes, and some of the bigger 2 handed swords.

Yikes! I just did the math on this. Your effective WPF is 70! If you figure your average player has an effective WPF of 100-120...yeah...you're crazy slow.

[jspook]

dude, of course you get out-spammed with all of that stuff on.  all the weight of your equipment subtracts from your current wpf at a calculable ratio.  You cant seriously be expecting to haul around both a heavy shield AND wear heavy plate with no drawbacks. 

Take a look at the people who regular destroy you.  you dont see them using the highest armor classes or filling out all of their weapon slots.  and they are most certainly lvl 30+ when they do decide to fully gear up.  as you are clearly not. 

Also, splitting up your wpf like that was a colossaly bad idea.  the dudes eating your face for breakfast have 150wpf or more in ONLY 2H.  dont sit there and complain about getting your ass handed to you when these dedicated spammers who built their characters for pure 2h damage simply skullfuck you because you dont even have enough wpf in one class to be dangerous, let alone deadly.

edit:  the above was a bit harsh.  I am just tired from work today.  I need to cut someone. 

[DarkFox]

You cant be outspammed even with 1 wpf if you attack back immediately.Need practise with footwork and timing,thats all.

[Frell]

I've just come out of being an archer so I really didn't know much about builds for melee at all, so that makes sense.

Then what is heavy plate armor for? People on horses or what?

Now Im more interested in making quick work of spammers.

Could anyone suggest some builds? Im going to reroll.



I only wear my full plate when we have x3+

Normally I wear

Nasal helm

Byrnie

Mail mitts

Iron greaves