[Poll] Feedback on 2h stab.

[Karthago]

polearms and tow hands weapons to strong......

[Chewwy666]

2h stab completely outranged by even 1h now, Awesome.

[Akavirius]

2h stab completely outranged by even 1h now, Awesome.

A weapon used one handed will have more reach than if you used it two handed, just like in real life. 
Basic geometry.

edit: The previous 2h thrust anim had a artificial reach because the knees and legs bended forward in an impossible way. Good thing it was fixed.

Edit2: A short pole weapon like a poleaxe will have less reach than a rapier because of the way you hold these weapons. The more you know.

(click to show/hide)

Edit3: Porthos=> 2h fanboy spotted. "buff 2h nerf everything else" is real! 

[Moncho]

Yeah but the status quo has been the other way around for so long that they must now complain that it is no longer.

[Nehvar]

A weapon used one handed will have more reach than if you used it two handed, just like in real life. 
Basic geometry.

Sure, that's true, but you're missing where most two-handers are a fair bit longer than one-handers.

Edit: Fixed punctuation.   

[Akavirius]

Sure, that true, but you're missing where most two-handers are a fair bit longer than one-handers

The balance of infantry melee weapons seems clear to me (but not to everyone it seems) :

Polearmers have the longest reach, high damage, medium to low speed Damage dealer and support
Two-handers have a short reach, medium to high damage, high speed DPS and dueling class
One-handers have medium reach, low damage, medium speed but can have a shield Main line and protection against ranged

And no, 2h should not beat everything else.

[_GTX_]

The balance of infantry melee weapons seems clear to me (but not to everyone it seems) :

Polearmers have the longest reach, high damage, medium to low speed Damage dealer and support
Two-handers have a short reach, medium to high damage, high speed DPS and dueling class
One-handers have medium reach, low damage, medium speed but can have a shield Main line and protection against ranged

And no, 2h should not beat everything else.

Thats not how is it at all. You might want it to be like that, but it's not at all. And if you truly believe it is like this, then you clearly have no fucking clue. What class do you play? I've played in melee for 4 years.

Furthermore, stop fucking using realism as an arguement. Realism was never fucking used as an arguement, when it comes to balance, which this clearly is about. 90% of the stuff that happens in c-rpg is unrealistic, so why would realism suddenly apply to a few specific things? That would be absolutely retarded.

[Akavirius]

(click to show/hide)

Thats not how is it at all. You might want it to be like that, but it's not at all. And if you truly believe it is like this, then you clearly have no fucking clue. What class do you play? I've played in melee for 4 years.

Furthermore, stop fucking using realism as an arguement. Realism was never fucking used as an arguement, when it comes to balance, which this clearly is about. 90% of the stuff that happens in c-rpg is unrealistic, so why would realism suddenly apply to a few specific things? That would be absolutely retarded.

So, how is the balance of classes? From my experience in the game this is what I saw (i simplified a lot of course).

Well, i guess a game based around medieval combat would strive for realism while still maintaining balance. I was wrong. People want unrealistic balance.

I'm sick of this. Sick of partisanism. Sick of people that want their class buffed.

But I'm facing 2h heroes, i can't blame you. for centuries two handed swords were glorified, from renaissance longswords to 19th century katanas. Even now with films like LOTR that show longswords as the hero weapon.

[Algarn]

(click to show/hide)

So, how is the balance of classes? From my experience in the game this is what I saw (i simplified a lot of course).

Well, i guess a game based around medieval combat would strive for realism while still maintaining balance. I was wrong. People want unrealistic balance.

I'm sick of this. Sick of partisanism. Sick of people that want their class buffed.

But I'm facing 2h heroes, i can't blame you. for centuries two handed swords were glorified, from renaissance longswords to 19th century katanas. Even now with films like LOTR that show longswords as the hero weapon.

I would love a realistic medieval game. You know, a game where you can't spawn with a katana, and be exempt from blocking (18/27, 200 wpf, gjwp), where you would kill with one arrow in the head, but not have a sniper accuracy like now. I dream of a game where there's a risk for any move you make, a truly omnipresent risk for everyone, regardlessly of the class you're playing. But fuck that, it's cRPG. I can't remember how was 2012 cRPG exactly, but I still remember this genuine feeling I had when I turned on the game and joinned a half-full EU1 where people were cooperating with the rest of the team, and actually defending/attacking positions together, with shieldwalls and shit. The rare times I play cRPG now, it's just a poor attempt to get 1% of this feeling I had, and I usually leave after a couple of minutes.

Playing Insurgency/Red Orchestra is refreshing after playing cRPG so much time : people actually die in one or two bullets, and so you do. Whatever is the weapon you use, if you get shot, you end up dead. That's how it was, how it is, how it will be, and so how it should be in a game that calls itself medieval, with a large variety of historically accurate gear and weapons. In the current state, you better add LoTR armors/weapons, magic, and unicorns, because realism went out of the window long, long time ago.

[_GTX_]

(click to show/hide)

So, how is the balance of classes? From my experience in the game this is what I saw (i simplified a lot of course).

Well, i guess a game based around medieval combat would strive for realism while still maintaining balance. I was wrong. People want unrealistic balance.

I'm sick of this. Sick of partisanism. Sick of people that want their class buffed.

But I'm facing 2h heroes, i can't blame you. for centuries two handed swords were glorified, from renaissance longswords to 19th century katanas. Even now with films like LOTR that show longswords as the hero weapon.

You ''saw'' this? So you did not even experience it? How much do you even play the actual game? Is this all just ignorant opinions?

Yes, a game should strive for realism, aslong as it doesn't ruin the gameplay and/or the balance. However, this is exactly what is happening, realism is ruining the balance and therefore also the gameplay. As i alrdy said: ''Realism is not a valid argument when it comes to balance'', which actually agrees with your statement, ''Strive for realism WHILE STILL MAINTAINING BALANCE''.

Now lets set this straight. Sometimes you throw realism out of the window, because it would cause absolutely horrific gameplay. Gameplay is the most important thing for most games, and i think this is one of them. The ''unrealistic balance'' might not be realistic, but it's probably going to be balanced, when it comes to the power dynamic between the different classes. If this is given through the ''unrealistic balance'', then that results in a game that offers greater gameplay.

[Akavirius]

You ''saw'' this? So you did not even experience it? How much do you even play the actual game? Is this all just ignorant opinions?

Yes I saw it. As far as i know the eyes are the main sensory organs of humans that let them be aware of their environment. I saw it as i played the game.

Do you have other rants or are you finished? I only heard you criticize what I said, but you didn't give your opinion on what is the class balance.

Edit: i play every class possible, i have like 10 alts.

[Algarn]

You ''saw'' this? So you did not even experience it? How much do you even play the actual game? Is this all just ignorant opinions?

Yes, a game should strive for realism, aslong as it doesn't ruin the gameplay and/or the balance. However, this is exactly what is happening, realism is ruining the balance and therefore also the gameplay. As i alrdy said: ''Realism is not a valid argument when it comes to balance'', which actually agrees with your statement, ''Strive for realism WHILE STILL MAINTAINING BALANCE''.

Now lets set this straight. Sometimes you throw realism out of the window, because it would cause absolutely horrific gameplay. Gameplay is the most important thing for most games, and i think this is one of them. The ''unrealistic balance'' might not be realistic, but it's probably going to be balanced, when it comes to the power dynamic between the different classes. If this is given through the ''unrealistic balance'', then that results in a game that offers greater gameplay.

4 years. 4 years during, I saw so many nerfs, coming from everywhere, that lottery you play at each patch, hopping your class won't get fucked completely, talking for every class.  And I think I check forums for 2 years now. And I assisted myself to the biggest whining from people that want their class to be buffed, while others being nerfed to ground (I've been part of this whinning at the end, and I sincerely regret it, but what's done is done). And this, didn't remove only realism, but also fun (you know, that thing you try to get by playing a game).

People started leaving when Tydeus released the New wpf formula patch and the other changes in it. Actually, it messed up everything, giving a clear path to completely retarded/min-maxed builds like 21/24, more like 24/24, 21/27 and the likes with the current leveling system. Classes being able to fight everything without even hybridization is wrong, but it has been made possible, through the nerfs to non infantry classes : put a cav/archer against a 1h/2h/polearmer, the formers will get their asses owned terribly in most cases (not talking about horse archers, that's another thing there...). When you make one meta viable against all others, you remove teamplay, and enforce retarded rushing styles comparable to CoD. Even without a shield, I know there's 50% chance for me to reach the archer, crossbowman, thrower, and kill him in a 1V1. Just know that your definition of fun is YOUR vision of fun, and not the vision of fun of the people that were playing back in 2012, where teamplay and playing together was a part of it. People left the game because it was becoming old, but also because the battle wasn't played on servers, but on forums, since people, not able to adapt their style against other classes, adapted the others classes to their styles. That's just sad we came at this point.

[_GTX_]

4 years. 4 years during, I saw so many nerfs, coming from everywhere, that lottery you play at each patch, hopping your class won't get fucked completely, talking for every class.  And I think I check forums for 2 years now. And I assisted myself to the biggest whining from people that want their class to be buffed, while others being nerfed to ground (I've been part of this whinning at the end, and I sincerely regret it, but what's done is done). And this, didn't remove only realism, but also fun (you know, that thing you try to get by playing a game).

People started leaving when Tydeus released the New wpf formula patch and the other changes in it. Actually, it messed up everything, giving a clear path to completely retarded/min-maxed builds like 21/24, more like 24/24, 21/27 and the likes with the current leveling system. Classes being able to fight everything without even hybridization is wrong, but it has been made possible, through the nerfs to non infantry classes : put a cav/archer against a 1h/2h/polearmer, the formers will get their asses owned terribly in most cases (not talking about horse archers, that's another thing there...). When you make one meta viable against all others, you remove teamplay, and enforce retarded rushing styles comparable to CoD. Even without a shield, I know there's 50% chance for me to reach the archer, crossbowman, thrower, and kill him in a 1V1. Just know that your definition of fun is YOUR vision of fun, and not the vision of fun of the people that were playing back in 2012, where teamplay and playing together was a part of it. People left the game because it was becoming old, but also because the battle wasn't played on servers, but on forums, since people, not able to adapt their style against other classes, adapted the others classes to their styles. That's just sad we came at this point.

I don't see how thats relevant to my post, but alright. Clearly you have only stated on the forum, since you clearly have no clue what condition ranged is in atm, it's incredibly strong. Also no nerfs to infantry classes? Seriously, you gotta be kidding.

Yes I saw it. As far as i know the eyes are the main sensory organs of humans that let them be aware of their environment. I saw it as i played the game.

Do you have other rants or are you finished? I only heard you criticize what I said, but you didn't give your opinion on what is the class balance.

Edit: i play every class possible, i have like 10 alts.

As far as i know there is quite a difference between seeing something and experiencing it yourself. You might watch some concert on youtube, but there is quite a difference between that and then actually being there when it happened. I supose you did not understand this.

My opinion on the class balance? 2h essentially lost a direction, since i really don't see the point of stab atm. The stab looks shit when feinting and it doesn't have a lot of range, because it bounces at the last 10-20% of the animation. Furthermore it also has a higher chance to bounce compared to other swing directions, when up close, so it doesn't really have any role to fill atm. This ofc leaves 4-directional 2h as a subpar class compared to the others.

1h is exetremely good atm, since they still have a ridiculous strong stab, one that is by far stronger than the 2h stab. It bounces less, more reach, has a better animation and therefore is easier to aim. Furthermore the major buff of ranged atm made it even more important to have a shield.

Polearm is quite strong, since it has not really been nerfed and is able to fill a large amount of roles, where it does quite well in every single one.

Ranged just got a buff and it's incredibly fucking strong atm. I feel like it's too strong, because they do a lot more dmg than most melee, without having to face all of the dangers that melee does.

[Gravoth_iii]

4 years. 4 years during, I saw so many nerfs, coming from everywhere, that lottery you play at each patch, hopping your class won't get fucked completely, talking for every class.  And I think I check forums for 2 years now. And I assisted myself to the biggest whining from people that want their class to be buffed, while others being nerfed to ground (I've been part of this whinning at the end, and I sincerely regret it, but what's done is done). And this, didn't remove only realism, but also fun (you know, that thing you try to get by playing a game).

People started leaving when Tydeus released the New wpf formula patch and the other changes in it. Actually, it messed up everything, giving a clear path to completely retarded/min-maxed builds like 21/24, more like 24/24, 21/27 and the likes with the current leveling system. Classes being able to fight everything without even hybridization is wrong, but it has been made possible, through the nerfs to non infantry classes : put a cav/archer against a 1h/2h/polearmer, the formers will get their asses owned terribly in most cases (not talking about horse archers, that's another thing there...). When you make one meta viable against all others, you remove teamplay, and enforce retarded rushing styles comparable to CoD. Even without a shield, I know there's 50% chance for me to reach the archer, crossbowman, thrower, and kill him in a 1V1. Just know that your definition of fun is YOUR vision of fun, and not the vision of fun of the people that were playing back in 2012, where teamplay and playing together was a part of it. People left the game because it was becoming old, but also because the battle wasn't played on servers, but on forums, since people, not able to adapt their style against other classes, adapted the others classes to their styles. That's just sad we came at this point.

Id just like to say that teamplay was never a thing that occured often, but at random times it did, and it wasnt in any special year its been pretty much throughout the the entire lifespan of the mod. People have taken the fight to the forums though, shit, everythings getting nerfed. Why bother learning everything when you can get something nerfed and be done with it?

Archery needed a buff and is at a good spot of power now, i think it brings back players too having a class like archery to play and do decent without getting stomped by some veteran player. I do agree with GTX on a lot of the melee balancing, but i dont agree on what he thinks of ranged, running a duel build on a battle server does get you shot, thats not only the ranged being strong (classes should be strong) but also the fact that you have nothing to fight it with.

Now im not entirely sure about low shield skill shields, if their coverage is crap they need buffs, but i believe they are worth a point or two for decent coverage. I would also like to see them getting halved weight when worn on the back or more even, because that has been my biggest issue with bringing shields.

[_GTX_]

Oh look, GTX is lecturing Algarn on the current state of ranged in cRPG, because clearly Algarn knows shit-all about ranged when compared to GTX.

Has this thread literally just turned into 'GTX tries to demonstrate how he knows everything about balance for all classes especially the ones he doesnt play'. Even funnier being that he's saying this to Algarn, one of the only ranged players who can consistently play their class well regardless of any nerfs, i guess Algarn isnt the kinda pussy who puts his weapon on the marketplace if his class receives a single 'nerf' to one aspect of it's gameplay.

Clearly you're too incompetent or just blindly by your constant hate towards me, that consistently wants to comment whenever there is a chance, but i actually said the words ''i feel'', which means it's my opinion, but clearly i'm not allowed to voice it according to you.

Furthermore you don't have to play a class to see how it stacks up on the battlefield, it's quite clear if a class is dominating or not, regardless if you play it or not. And instead of being blinded by your pathetic hate, then you could try countering my points, but  you could also just stuck to spiteful comments.

Furthremore i played 2h for 4 years, so cut your absolutely laughable crap with: ''I leave my class when it receives a single nerf''. I played the fucking class for 4 years, and it got a ton of nerfs during that timed and i stuck with it, so plz shut your ignorant and dumb mouth. Ontop of that, if you had any brain, then you would know i traded my french for a polearm, but i still have my SoW. And if you feel like there is no way you could have known that, then don't state that i sold my 2h inventory.