Author Topic: February patch preview, input appreciated  (Read 26441 times)

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Offline San

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #165 on: January 31, 2015, 01:14:06 am »
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We were when it was true. Then 1H/2H bumpslash was basically made to do zero damage, 1H stab was buffed so it can pretty much onehit an incoming plated charger, while outreaching the riders rightswing, every polearm was given the ability to stop horses, everyone got more agi while cav maneuver was lowered and the horse's armor material was switched from steel to paper. All this adds up to a fact that now there's just a couple of 1H cav left and half of those use great lance most of the time. On the other hand lancers can avoid most of these cav nerfs by simply outreaching any 1H, most 2H and most polearms and not needing to rely on bumpstabs to deal damage. You might argue that 1H cav still has the higher potential damage, but couching seems to be a more useful tool for backstabbing.

I agree about stabbing lances having much more rewarding skill ceiling and personally I enjoy the challenge to kill an awlpiker, or 2H hero with a heavy lance immensely. However I find it a problem that the only thing I can do against a great lancer when playing with a stabby lance is to avoid him. I can outreach the great lance with ease and stab them in the face if they try to kill me instead of my horse, but if they go for my horse, it's going to die no matter what I do. When I play 2H/Polearm I can outreach and kill every other type of cavalry unless they outplay me. Against a great lancer I can either run away, chamber or die. Damage isn't the problem but the fact that it outreaches almost anything on the battlefield nowadays. If I bring anything longer than my Corseque to a 10v10 battle I'm going to get destroyed by the enemy infantry and even with that weapon you need to be careful with the timing not to get outreached by the GL.

I see, thanks for the description of the situation. Great lances are meh. My personal method for dealing with them is to slow down when they're chasing me and match my speed with them. If they hit my horse or me, they don't deal much damage without the speed bonus. I then proceed to stab them afterwards. I'm convinced that the difficulty should be drastically raised, but I am also thinking of other additions such as 3 slots.

Quote
Okay, thanks for the detailed explanation. The current system just seems annoying at times, especially when you try to use footwork to avoid a stab, get hit for 0.1% damage and your hit gets cancelled...
I found a better description in the .ini

Soak: determines the amount which will be directly subtracted from damage due to armor.
Reduce: determines the percentage reduction from the damage.

You can increase soak for better glances, but then damage all around decreases. If reduce is decreased to offset that, the damage scaling increases, making speed bonus/holds/etc. more problematic. That's the best way I can describe it. The best solution to me is to increase soak, decrease reduce, and then decrease speed bonus for melee. It just seems.. risky to do that all at once.

Quote
Are we talking about the same thing here? What I mean is when you nudge (not sure if you need a shield or not), switch to a 1H weapon and left swing for example, the only thing that you can see is the nudge and then immediately released onehand leftswing. It skips the ready animation or whatever you call it completely and while it's still possible to block, everyone knows how fast the left swing already is without half of the animation missing.

Whoops, I was focused on just weapon switching without being punished. It's something that Paul added and a lot of it is pretty confusing to me since I don't know how the animations interact. I just don't know how to change it to fix the animation or prevent the option to switch weapons during the nudge animation. From what I know, at least if you're hit with attack nudge then you can only swing the direction you were holding beforehand.

Quote
I guess this is where the opinions may differ. Imo on a server with 10 players on both sides (like yesterday prime time on EU1), a shield surviving multiple fights sounds like a problem. With 7 shield skill which seems pretty normal for a shielder, the heavier shields can take quite a few hits even with an axe. I've seen Mircea cel Batran's (best cav EU) shield take more than a minute of constant beating and he's in full plate so I don't think he can have more than 8 skillpoints.

Shields are not the only problem that scales a bit poorly with the server population dropping. Throwers who should be limited by their ammo are suddenly quite a lot more effective and most of the time about half of my deaths on EU1 nowadays are either directly by throwers or getting hit by melee after a dagger hits me. Just something that needs to be thought about more when balancing things out in the near future with the population getting even lower.

Yeah, difference of opinion. It's difficult for me to understand when there are so many great axes available and damage should have increased more than shield skill's defence.

That argument makes a lot of sense, though. While 0-2 difficulty shields were buffed, shields themselves were generally unchanged since the shield armor buff a year ago. It's also offset by shield skill not scaling as well once it reaches 6 and above. Plate has a difficulty of 15-16, so it's tough to tell how much shield skill he actually has. I still think that shield skill above the requirement is a waste if you're skilled in melee. 5 shield skill shields are crazy when fully utilized, though.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #166 on: January 31, 2015, 01:27:07 am »
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Crushthrough weapons are the ones that need high difficulty, other than that i dont see any other weapons really needing difficulty for balancing. Longer weapons have higher movespeed penalties afaik. And using long and strong weapons with high athletics, i mean it all sounds good in theory but it just doesnt perform anywhere close to overpowered status when used in practice.

So far i've tested most weapons using agi heavy builds being 12str(39agi) to 15str(27agi and this was prepatch), most success with 12 is warspear. It gets the job done but each thrust is a pretty large risk of glancing unless perfomed perfectly, and if glance it very often results in death. I also did some piking, pretty good, damage is shit but you can move okayish, fun but not viable. Quarter staff hits for nothing. Hafted blade, which is insanely strong (probably one of the best polearms in the game, dont tell anyone) sucks with 12 str. Absolutely shit damage, movespeed bonus doesnt do shit without a PS base. Thats all the decent pole options for 12 str.

15 str i did feel the PS+movespeed being put to work for some damage at times compareable to balance builds. Long hafted blade, weak damage imo, had hopes of homosex weapon but it sucked. Hafted blade was pretty sweet here, not amazing damage but spam potential off the charts, i think it peaks at 18 str though, maybe 21 with higher levels and all. Warspear still good, better damage overall and thats comparing 15-27 to 12-39 builds. Long hafted spiked mace was garbage afaik, just a junk tier weapon since it got hit with nerfs oh so long ago.

Basically, every polearm available to low str agiwhores are in no way dealing significant damage, even with new patch when i can get even mooore athl damage is still meh. Increasing difficulty would just remove whatever sort-of-viable options there are. Anything agiwhore use them for can be used significantly better as balance, which wouldnt get affected by difficulty changes so...

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First off, i dont think tincans should be invincible to lower damage weapons (as they once were, before armor soak changes). It sucked back then and it would now too. Secondly, Killing a tincan in 5 hits with a katana and 3 PS, while its probably very possible but theres a lot of things to factor in. Firstly, if the tincan has IF and str to actually use his armor effectively. Secondly if the tincan actually took full speedbonus hits 5 hits in a row he deserves death, thats just silly. Thirdly, the tincan probably wouldve oneshot Xanor had he not gotten shitstomped, 1 hit vs 5 hits, i mean cmon how much is movespeed actually worth.

I do think 2h benefit more from low str builds compared to polearms, but still not strong enough to be needing a nerf. Also you may have noticed me strolling around on my str plate character on eu1, ive actually played him for a month or more now i believe and the only memories i have fighting an agiwhore would be me being annoyed by him moving out of my range and then coming back and hitting me. After taking maybe 3 or so hits i can generally land a good strike and oneshot them. Annoying sure, but they only took maybe a 5th of my hp. I dont watch people, i test both parts and experience pros and cons of each build. I believe this is more informative than having seen one fight of unknown tincan build scrub player that you think was full hp vs good player agiwhore.
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Offline Jona

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #167 on: January 31, 2015, 03:34:02 am »
0
Great lances are meh. My personal method for dealing with them is to slow down when they're chasing me and match my speed with them. If they hit my horse or me, they don't deal much damage without the speed bonus. I then proceed to stab them afterwards. I'm convinced that the difficulty should be drastically raised, but I am also thinking of other additions such as 3 slots.

Great lances are currently the only form of cavalry you see in-game, and most of the time half of an entire team is comprised of them. There simply isn't any good counter for a great lance, whether you are mounted or not. Upping the slots to 3 sounds great and all, but the reality is that since we are in a new age of crpg where there are plenty of strong 0 slot 1handers, all the great lancers will just reforge their +3 1handers into broad short swords, or something. If 0 slot 1handers implied hatchets/hammers/knives, then yes, 3 slots might be a decent fix. On the flip side, unless you up the difficulty to somewhere above 21 str, there will be minimal impact. You can expect most cavalry to be 21-21 at this point, so you can have a great lancer on an arabian warhorse coming at you with such high maneuverability that unless you've got a pike you have no hope of escaping. It is honestly quite ridiculous how easy great lance cav has become now, since nearly any horse can outmaneuver an infantry in a head-on charge. You used to simply need to be on the lookout for cavalry charges and just easily dodge them once they were close since all they could do was charge in a straight line... nowadays, with all the heads up in the world you can't escape them.
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Offline Kirman

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #168 on: January 31, 2015, 04:04:40 am »
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Here's my thoughts...

Crossbows
Archers could run till the end of the round back then... Arrow quiver weight increased but 2x quiver makes them really heavy. In the meantime we had a revival patch which allows us to get extra attributes. Now archers are decent but xbows are like the old archers. I mean you can easily run with a 18/24-27-30 build.  A litle balance on weights might work if conisder it as ''ranged''. Also if we compare melee effectivness, xbows are superior. Yes, they have reload time. There might be a skill like ''power draw/power strike'' to use a crossbow also reducing the reload speed a bit. This way they have to choose what they really want to do ranged or melee... Otherwise i don't see a point choosing archery over crossbow.

Couch
If we look at it realistic. It should be broken after one couch. I'm not sure if it's doable but we really need it since lots of people abuses it. I miss the glory days of pocketpike  :cry:

1H Stab
I know it was completely useless before. Now it has a great use.(Gankings) But it's kinda too fast...(or ping issues)

Horse Archers
Nope!

Throwing
Are there any limit to damage increase at power throw? like power draw? Cause it's possible to see throwing daggers/knives can kill a heavily armored guy. Yeah it looks funny but come on.

Weapon changing
This one is weird and i've seen it lately. Not sure if it happens on every case but there was a guy on EU. Throwing snowflakes then suddenly changes to melee weapon and swings faster than a jet plane.

Pikeman
Where are they? I'm not talking about having a spear on your back or new fancy 2d polearms. Long Spear and Pike. I don't reallly know what to do here since i'm missing pocketpike it won't be fair  :lol:

Ladders&Siege equipments
We need to find use for this. At least on siege.



I kinda agree with http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/what's-wrong-with-crpg-right-now/ this.  But i think weapons should stay same. Everyone should be able to use their weapon of choice with their build of choice.  (Melee only)





« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:22:30 am by Xside »

Offline Rico

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #169 on: January 31, 2015, 04:57:56 am »
+1
i don't see a point choosing archery over crossbow
accuracy
rate of fire
trajectory
projectile visibility
slots
roleplay theme
superiority in ranged vs ranged
higher valor chance
anticav advantage
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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #170 on: January 31, 2015, 05:29:57 am »
+1
@Jona
Cav maneuver is lower and athletics is higher, so shouldn't it be easier than before? When I said "meh," I meant that they were annoying to deal with and fix. I didn't explain that well in my post at all, lol. I'm more focused on cav vs. cav, and 19 difficulty is enough where other cav can reasonably deal with them vs. an optimized 11/3x great lancer build. I haven't played much because of Smash Bros. taking up gaming time lately, but I only recall bad cav using great lances or 1h cav that wanted a temporary boost. I don't really like low-skill playstyles like great lances, but I acknowledge that they have their place.

@Xside
Thanks for the post. I don't know what to do with xbows. They'll be buffed with the limb change. I'm thinking of just giving them a little bit extra accuracy so they'll at least be "pickup and play" for low wpf users and high wpf users get some better accuracy even though they're limited with wpf caps to accuracy.

I don't know how to add great lances breaking after a couch. If there was a trigger for couching, I would just decrease the great lance's damage for each couch to simulate a loss of durability. I think that would balance the risk vs. reward without being that unfair. I can't find such a trigger, though.

1h stab is all stats. You can't change 99-100 speed with good damage very easily. All of the good stabbing 1hs have poor swing damage, while the fast polearms at least deal blunt and the stabby 2hs have usable amounts of cut damage with the exception of the Estoc.

HAs: lol

I think I'm a little out of touch about how throwing is affecting the servers. This kind of thing was why archery damage was initially decreased so much as well. Can't really change them being good with few people on. A shield may be needed. Board shields were buffed with better coverage for those kinds of situations.

Sometimes you can't see animations properly. The guy could've been mostly a melee build and used a strategy of forcing approaches with the snowflakes.

I leave pike and long spear stuff to experts like Gurnisson. The only change they had was decreased weight so they can turn more easily.

To get ladders back, you'd need to discuss that with Scene Managers in order to get ladder-friendly maps in rotation.

New addition:
-Extreme speed bonus damages reduced for melee while regular speed bonus hits should deal the same damage. Some speed bonus has been added to ranged, but not as much as it used to be since I'll need to check how all of these changes are stacking with each other.

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #171 on: January 31, 2015, 10:46:22 am »
-1
Cav maneuver is lower and athletics is higher, so shouldn't it be easier than before? When I said "meh," I meant that they were annoying to deal with and fix. I didn't explain that well in my post at all, lol. I'm more focused on cav vs. cav, and 19 difficulty is enough where other cav can reasonably deal with them vs. an optimized 11/3x great lancer build. I haven't played much because of Smash Bros. taking up gaming time lately, but I only recall bad cav using great lances or 1h cav that wanted a temporary boost. I don't really like low-skill playstyles like great lances, but I acknowledge that they have their place.

Horse maneuverability ratings might have been lowered in the most recent patch, but nowadays people can get crazy builds going where they easily fit 9-10 riding in. This allows them to have more control over their horses, despite the horse nerf. Other than that, the main issue I seem to have with great lances is their absurd hitbox. Pretty much every weapon has a dumb hitbox in warband, but it is especially frustrating when the weapon in question deals high damage, often enough to oneshot you, and also can't even be blocked. Assuming the hitbox runs the entire length of the lance, if not most of it, that would make it possible to get hit after the very tip of hit hits your body... and this is what seems to get me all the time. Maybe it is just the janky servers doing what they do best, but very often I seem to get "hilt slashed" by a couched lance. I will see the point of it go over my head, think "Phew, barely dodged the bullet on that one" and then hear a thud and drop dead within a split second as the rest of the lance passes by/through me. If anything, could the hitbox simply be changed so that it encompasses only the very tip of the couched lance, limiting their effective hitting range?

No harm in letting smash take up most of your gaming time, we all know it's a far more well-made and enjoyable game than crpg, but it couldn't hurt to try and hop on crpg some time and see the despicable state the mod is currently in. With such a small server population, pikes and longspears (and most support polearms) are nearly nonexistent, since any support build requires enough teammates to fight alongside. When your entire team consists of 10 people, spread out over a map made for 50v50 battles, you would be lucky to even fight alongside two allies unless you've got a clanstack going/some really astounding teamwork for a pub group. The low population itself changes the entire meta of the game, and this changes what is arguably OP/UP at the moment. Unfortunately things like this can't easily be balanced by tweaking stats on weapons, but you just have to recognize the fact that many of the counters  lance cavalry have all but disappeared nowadays.


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Offline chesterotab

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #172 on: January 31, 2015, 12:59:19 pm »
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i love charging great lance users and out ranging couchers with muh +3 regular lance. i imagine they will largely disappear with a 19 difficulty nerf. cav vs cav, lance vs lance, head on battles makes my dick hard.

dodging great lance while on foot is easy as fuck if you are watching for them, hell you can even chamber the guy. the timing is the easiest chamber in the game unless they are a couch god that aims upward and pulls down after baiting the chamber. if you cant chamber 9/10 couches, you should kill yourself practice. They should only be a threat when you are engaged in a hard to win melee/team melee and can't be bothered to check around for charging cav in which case you deserve to die in that scenario.

also if you main anyone other than Ganondorf or Bowser, ur a fgt.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 01:05:19 pm by chesterotab »

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Offline Leshma

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #173 on: January 31, 2015, 02:04:42 pm »
+1
I leave pike and long spear stuff to experts like Gurnisson.

He might be an expert and all but dude doesn't play cRPG anymore, at all. Never understood why is chadz so lazy to ask his balancing staff every few months to see do they still play the mod or not.

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #174 on: January 31, 2015, 02:23:01 pm »
+1
As I said earlier and some commented already, bringing a longspear or pike to a 10v10 battle is suicide. In big group fights they are still arguably overpowered, but even the best abusers can't fight with them 1on1 for long. As Jona said this has caused the annoying side effect that lancer cav is now the best class in game. It doesn't help that if you dismount the guy he's a fully equipped infantry player with either 1H+Shield or a Poleaxe.

Also when it comes to balancing there seems to be huge differences between NA and EU and these threads seem to represent the NA much more which causes some confusion I'm sure. On EU we form gank mobs that go through the map in a clockwise motion destroying everything on their way while cavalry mostly tries to backstab people. On NA people will spread out from the spawn in four different directions for whatever reason and half of them can't score a single point in a round. The armor values on NA are also considerably lower as is the average skill level, making it totally different meta compared to EU. I suggest the NA players go to EU servers to see how it works and vice versa. What time is the NA prime time if I want to join again when the better players are actually on?

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #175 on: January 31, 2015, 06:21:36 pm »
+4
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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #176 on: January 31, 2015, 07:50:21 pm »
0
As I said earlier and some commented already, bringing a longspear or pike to a 10v10 battle is suicide. In big group fights they are still arguably overpowered, but even the best abusers can't fight with them 1on1 for long.

Dieler, Teeth, Chase. Especially Dieler i have noticed being particularly strong even outnumbered with a longspear.
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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #177 on: January 31, 2015, 08:26:08 pm »
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Seen Teeth three times during last two months, Dieler twice (both times he was throwing stones or some shit), Chase just once and he was online for less than 10 minutes.

Do you have recent example?

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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #178 on: January 31, 2015, 09:12:51 pm »
+2
The armor values on NA are also considerably lower as is the average skill level, making it totally different meta compared to EU. I suggest the NA players go to EU servers to see how it works and vice versa. What time is the NA prime time if I want to join again when the better players are actually on?

I play on EU from time to time, sometime during their primetime, and what I've noticed is that yes, the average armor level is normally higher, however the average skill level is not. Now, before we start an EU vs. NA flame thread, here is the very simple reason why: the NA servers are populated by 80% veterans, and at most 20% noobs at this point. Only the die-hards still play regularly, as they have for years. In EU, since the server population is so much larger than NA, the average skill level seems to be slightly lower, simply because there are far more new players just trying crpg or warband out for the first time. That said, NA does seem to have more "no-name" players on at any given time than ever before, simply because most of the veterans have finally given up hope since last patch.

Regardless, the EU vs. NA meta will always be different; EU favors more strength builds with heavy armor running around using mob tactics, while NA prefers agility builds using ninja tactics. Recently an EU guy showed up to NA and was like "WOW NO CAV OMG OMG OMG I LOVE USA!" to which everyone simply replied "You just showed up at the right time." If you don't frequent either side of the pond regularly, it is definitely hard to jump to conclusions about their meta.

NA primetime is probably anywhere from 2am - 6am your time. However, we really don't have much of a primetime left, since it seems to be 10v10 at best, all the time. If you show up to an NA server and it is 15v15 or more, then just consider that primetime.
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Re: February patch preview, input appreciated
« Reply #179 on: January 31, 2015, 09:39:36 pm »
+1
Seen Teeth three times during last two months, Dieler twice (both times he was throwing stones or some shit), Chase just once and he was online for less than 10 minutes.

Do you have recent example?

Its not like long spears or pikes have been nerfed recently, so nothing has really changed. Or well, more levels i guess, but im not sure that changes much. Im sure they would still perform just as well with those weapons, but the weapons are lacking now that playernumbers have gone down.

I did a bit of piking with my 12-39 main, was okay but damage is shit with that build. I might just respecc my stf to some decent piking build and give it a shot.

I play on EU from time to time, sometime during their primetime, and what I've noticed is that yes, the average armor level is normally higher, however the average skill level is not. Now, before we start an EU vs. NA flame thread, here is the very simple reason why: the NA servers are populated by 80% veterans, and at most 20% noobs at this point. Only the die-hards still play regularly, as they have for years. In EU, since the server population is so much larger than NA, the average skill level seems to be slightly lower, simply because there are far more new players just trying crpg or warband out for the first time. That said, NA does seem to have more "no-name" players on at any given time than ever before, simply because most of the veterans have finally given up hope since last patch.

Each time ive ventured into NA theres been 2 or 3 people who knew how to block and those would get 3 or 4:0 kd's because the rest is just trash. Lots of peasants everywhere. Hell, im even pulling off 2.5:0 kd's there with little effort and 140 ping. Alltho ive only drifted into those servers like 2 or 3 times recently.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 09:46:03 pm by Gravoth_iii »
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