Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters

[Mr.K.]

Having played some archery with my 27/21 build I can say that it does feel nerfed, but not too bad at the moment. However, it might be a whole different story for agi archers. The accuracy on that 9PD build seems really high so I really don't see a point to have less PD, which ofc is a problem. I'll test a 18/27 build at some point to see if it's much worse, but I have a feeling that right now only high PD builds are worth it.

[Teeth]

The teamwork I'm suggesting goes hand-in-hand with classes naturally countering each other instead of making each melee class its own army, viable for any situation.
I wouldn't say I'm brilliant, but I tend to duck behind shielders when archers are shooting in my direction. That much should be intuitive.
Of course cav doesn't like to risk their horses by charging at archers, but that should be part of the job. Hit them from behind. Support your team by charging enemy melee so your shielders can get to them faster.
Two-handers don't like to risk their lives by charging at archers, but that's the obvious risk involved as two-hander; ranged (of any kind) can hit you.
Similarly, archers don't like to be nerfed into the ground, and that's reasonable too.

Bottomline is, you want people to charge archers when it is much safer and much more fun to not do it. Much like the past 4 years, it's not going to happen.

[Molly]

[...]I'm happy just so long as the ratio of cavalry to infantry to range is relatively reasonable[...]

This has to be main goal of balancing imho. Very well written...

[Algarn]

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Put back damages, the accuracy now is too high, even with 10PD and a longbow.

[jtobiasm]

Infantry players are no longer scared of ranged, it's bullshit they can literally outrun you and just tank all the arrows, even if I do turn around and shoot them in the head 95% of the time they still can survive.

Once a melee player sees you he's going to run around all the inf just to kill you plus you increased the arrow weight adds the fact everyone can now spec into riding and just bump you all day long

Put back damages, the accuracy now is too high, even with 10PD and a longbow.

+1

[Molly]

Get a shield lol


...oh wait, only melee is supposed to adapt, right. My fault.

[HappyPhantom]

Archery is always going to be an annoying thing for me.  I'm happy just so long as the ratio of cavalry to infantry to range is relatively reasonable.

Not much sympathy here.  I leave it up to the item balancers to work this one out. (lol)

Seems the balancers want to drive ranged away.

Except that we want people to be focusing more on playing melee and less on playing ranged.

People that cut me in half are annoying to me. Fucking wonk lance cav that couch through their horses face are annoying to me. But I don't cry to to get them nerfed, I just deal with it and try and implement tactics to mitigate. I understand there are other classes in the game that counter me in annoying ways. Unfortunately now, I have become some ineffective the number of ways for me to deal with these counters is heavily reduced and it ain't fun no more.

So you know what, instead of crying nerfs, I don't play, or play another class.

[Jeade]

everything done to discourage new players - and old players alike - from picking up a bow and become an archer is done for the good of the mod. Simple as that.

I don't play, or play another class.

Their plan is working then.

And no, Molly, melee is not supposed to be the only class/playstyle adapting to changes. Granted, they haven't really had to. Ever.
At least, not with the consistent nerfs to archery.
I see that there is some effort here to balance effectively (higher accuracy, less arrows, etc), but it still isn't working. I don't recall the last time a patch got this much reaction from archers.
Even on an 8PD build, I was dumping half my arrows into targets. Maybe if I turned myself into a turret with 12 PD, I'd get a better result.
Still, the other issue is that the arrow count is too low, particularly with unloomed quivers. You shouldn't run out of arrows a third of the way through the match.
As others have said, the best approach now is to wait for everyone to get a few hits in, then start taking shots.

Anyway, maybe it's useless to argue for revisions or a compromise if the mindset is -> make archers miserable so we melee players have less to worry about, and therefore, have more fun.

The major thing I'm seeing here though is "ranged players can kill me and I don't like it."
Whenever I'm on my 2h or polearm alt, I rarely get killed by ranged.
75% of the time it's because I'm not paying attention to my surroundings and charge into the open like a hero.

I liked Huscarlton's idea of capping athletics for archers. That would be fine. That's a solid compromise worth implementing and trying out.

[Molly]

[...]I don't recall the last time a patch got this much reaction from archers.
[...]

Well, while EU archers are mainly "yea... well... actually it ain't that bad, maybe even a bit too accurate... I rather just play than complain on the forum...", it's mainly NA "reacting" to the patch
At least it sure does look so.

And I've written many, many times that I've never seen the damage as an issue with archers but their spam of arrows, the non-selective targeting and their amount.
Now they can't spam and have to pick their target - sounds like added skill to me.
And about those "mimimi I can't use 4 PD bows anymore" - that sounds to me the same as when some melee dude complains that he can't kill a plated str whore with a cudgel in 3 hits.
In my book, with low pd bows and high agi you hunt either ponies or low armor people. With a high pd bow, which makes you as slow as the plated str whore, you can kill whatever you want. Works for EU archer just fine according to the scoreboard.

[HappyPhantom]

Their plan is working then.

I know

... maybe even a bit too accurate...

Quite a lot of NA archers are actually saying the accuracy we have now is too much, and we'd gladly trade it to get some of that damage back.

And about those "mimimi I can't use 4 PD bows anymore" - that sounds to me the same as when some melee dude complains that he can't kill a plated str whore with a cudgel in 3 hits.

Take a look at the cost of running around with x2 stacks of bodkins and a longbow. That's why I complain about the ineffectiveness of low tier bows. I haemorrhage $$ using that (high end gear) all the time. But using low tier to save money is basically not worth it because of damage nerf. Compare cost / damage of low tier 2 hand vs low tier bows, and tell me that's balanced.

[Templar_Steevee]

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Put back damages, the accuracy now is too high, even with 10PD and a longbow.

You should also mentioned that infantry from my team were playing like idiots and they were standing still showing their faces to you ^^

This screen shows also that my 7 pd is also playable (on lvl 34), but not as effective as your 10.
anyway I'll try 27 18 now

[Kafein]

When I first started playing cRPG in early 2011, archery was pretty scary.
Archers could really tear shit up, and they were nerfed accordingly into more of a support role.
If enemies were out in the open, I'd shoot for the chest or head in my best effort to get a kill, but when teammates were working on taking someone down, I'd aim strictly for the legs.
If I hit, it'd stun the enemy for a moment, just long enough for someone to get a hit in. If I missed and hit a teammate, I'd do less damage than an accidental TK headshot.
That support role worked really well for me, and I'm assuming it did with other archers and assisted melee teammates too.
We, as archers, were also able to help rid the match of cavalry, as well. Horse archers take first priority.
This lessened the stress put on melee infantry as they had less couched lances bearing down on them.
It required teamwork.

So, class counters.
"Balance" seems to have separated entirely from "class counters." The two should be holding hands.
Balance should not just be about making it less annoying for melee to deal with horse archers or correcting the longsword stats so it fits better in the sword hierarchy gag.
Each "class" should have a counter, and making each individual melee unit its own army isn't going to solve the problem unless the intention is to dig a large grave, fill it with archers, and cement it shut.

• Archers play a necessary support role in keeping horse archers and other cavalry off their melee teammates.
• Horse archers play a role in being a highly mobile archer, capable of flanking infantry and chasing away enemy cavalry.
• Polearm users can have a very strong offense or play a supporting role similar to that of shielder.
• Crossbow users support like an archer, but dish out higher damage on those wearing heavier armor.
• Two-handers are the main brunt of the attack and, in turn, are supporting the rest of their team.

The key here is that everyone is supporting each other in one way or another.
If your archers fail to get rid of that pesky horse archer, and that horse archer only has to worry about getting within five feet of a melee unit, the horse archer will win.
This is not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.

If your cav or xbowers don't get rid of the three archers on the hill, and your two-handers get shot to shit running up that hill, it is (say ^{it with me}) not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.

Nerfing archery even further was not a progressive step in the right direction, and it will ensure less players will spec ranged.
I know a few guys who are only playing the mod just so they can retire and spec out of archery.
Arrows are now fewer per quiver and even heavier than before.
For an archer to carry as many arrows as he had before, arrow weight has effectively doubled.
This is insane.

After talking with a few guys who play as archers and some STF testing myself, archers are now also way too accurate.

TL;DR
In summary, class counters have been dropped from the balance discussion; every class needs to be equal to all other classes. Each melee unit is his own army.
Archery, especially horse archery, has been shit on the hardest because melee players find them annoying and impossible to catch/kill; however, poor teamwork is the issue, not a broken game mechanic.
Un-nerf archery. Play your class well. Use your class' strengths to your advantage, and remember you are an important supporting member of your team (unless we continue along the one-man army route).

I'd really like to see some honest, thoughtful input from others.
Let me quickly post some unwanted responses in this spoiler so you don't have to

(click to show/hide)

archer is gey
fuk archery
plate amor best armor
jeade is liberal my old friend
obama
2h supereor class nd shoud be invisible to arrpws
qq want sum whine  with ur cheeze archer gay boys
nigeria
etc, etc.

I probably should note to the EU guys that I am an xbower, not an archer.

learn teamplay get a shield lol umaddd???

Your argument is really stupid and as baseless as it always was. So yeah, now you learn teamplay.

[Jeade]

learn teamplay get a shield lol umaddd???

Your argument is really stupid and as baseless as it always was. So yeah, now you learn teamplay.

As a beta tester, why not give thoughtful input like the rest of us here have.
Why not try to acknowledge the issues and complaints and work towards a solution or a compromise?
Surely you should have some good ideas.

I'll again bump Huscarlton's idea of capping athletics if you have points in PD.

[Tydeus]

While the OP sounds great, it fails to acknowledge the human element. We(yes, I'm human too) make decisions based upon how we perceive the world. If 99% of melee don't want to stand around and wait for archers to kill the HA/other team's ranged, even though that's clearly, more often than not, the most sound strategy for winning — when you don't have a true competitive scene that can separate those who find simply winning (competition) more enjoyable than casually "having fun" — then from a game design perspective, you have to change your balance priorities.

Edit: It has been over a year and a half now of HA causing issues on the servers and teamwork hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed, is that people got fed up with it and evacuated the servers. Not only that, but I've stated multiple times for years now, that there are a lot of ways we could address HA/general ranged purely through maps and again nothing has changed. So any reservations one holds with respect to the idea that it if we just improve teamwork all our problems will go away, are simply naive.

[Keshian]

Their plan is working then.

And no, Molly, melee is not supposed to be the only class/playstyle adapting to changes. Granted, they haven't really had to. Ever.
At least, not with the consistent nerfs to archery.
I see that there is some effort here to balance effectively (higher accuracy, less arrows, etc), but it still isn't working. I don't recall the last time a patch got this much reaction from archers.
Even on an 8PD build, I was dumping half my arrows into targets. Maybe if I turned myself into a turret with 12 PD, I'd get a better result.
Still, the other issue is that the arrow count is too low, particularly with unloomed quivers. You shouldn't run out of arrows a third of the way through the match.
As others have said, the best approach now is to wait for everyone to get a few hits in, then start taking shots.

Anyway, maybe it's useless to argue for revisions or a compromise if the mindset is -> make archers miserable so we melee players have less to worry about, and therefore, have more fun.

The major thing I'm seeing here though is "ranged players can kill me and I don't like it."
Whenever I'm on my 2h or polearm alt, I rarely get killed by ranged.
75% of the time it's because I'm not paying attention to my surroundings and charge into the open like a hero.

I liked Huscarlton's idea of capping athletics for archers. That would be fine. That's a solid compromise worth implementing and trying out.

Yeah I stopped playing archer - so much easier to get consistent valour with any of my melee classes even my swashbuckler.  Only idiots who have never played it call archery "easy mode."  This new setup favors a static cannon, I've always preferred the dynamic archer moving to dodge other ranged and popping shots quickly back before reticule shrinks to microscope level.  A more intuitive way to play (I hate cs:go AWP style that some people favor)  Problem is with so little damage you need to go do 30-18 with mw longbows adn mw bodkins slowly shooting down targets while barely moving around and hiding behind the mass of melee.  God forbid you use ANY arrows other than bodkins where anyone under 50 body armor is "lightly armored" http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/crpg-statistics-poll/ - (horn bow and arrows) 25 cut damage is less than most peasant weapons (cleaver alone has 30 cut and hatchet has 28).  When you can do more damage with your hatchet than your high end EXPENSIVE bow you realize you need to quit archery.

Hell, while Tydeus was doing his "tests" he killed me once by archery and 6 times by melee on his archer character, because of course archery OP.


I don't think we should be capping athletics for archers.  I do agree with nerfing movement speed in general, would reduce the back-pedaling s-key heroes that make up over 70% of the servers now since tydeus' shitty changes int he last year, and exacerbated by the increased levels.  if you want to see a plague - thats far more common and worse than horse archers.  They do huge amounts of damage out of range of retaliation and never need to manual block.  With their high athletics its easy to dodge ranged (which don't hurt even if they hit), can run down any range with ease, spam and break shields (which archers can't) while staying out of retaliation range.  I say this from playing on a 18-27 polearm build and a 21-27 2hand build.  All they have gotten are more and more buffs (I guess devs don't like skill???).