Revert the Turn Speed nerf with the "revival patch"

[Tydeus]

But cmp made all the turn rate changes with WSE to begin with right? So why can't you use WSE to undo or rebalance it?

Because it's not accessible through the module system, the only thing modders have access to. You have to edit the dedicated server files(executable) directly. It's not like opening up a .txt or .py file, changing a 10 to an 8, then simply recompiling with a compiler that comes standard, as part of the module system. These are different leagues of technical savviness, entirely. I can't even really explain it well because it's beyond my technical understanding.

I'm just trying to understand how you come to these changes, really tough changes. i am of the opinion that the game is getting worse - do not blame anyone, just trying to understand what you are guided. but you have brought only  link to the crowd of whiners...i mean u need a new players, but not all players even just reading the forum

I linked that forum section because that's a place that is, statistically, very likely to see the reply of "can't be done" "it's hardcoded" "only cmp can do that". Those are replies to suggestions, and the suggestions corner, has a high concentration of suggestions. The forum location is irrelevant, you asked who and why. This is both the who(balancers) and some of the why(that forum section as an example).

As to the actual decision making processes... We use logic and reason to achieve what each of us individually thinks is the best way to achieve any individual positive outcome on the mod. Where positive outcome is relative to a mostly ambiguous and ever evolving goal set by humans (both devs and community members) with fickle emotions and desires to appease said humans with fickle emotions and desires. It's not easy, especially without a well defined mission statement(it's a bit late for that).

(click to show/hide)

cRPG lacks a mission statement/well defined goal, because chadz had originally only created cRPG as a proof of concept. He never expected things to go the route they did. This is why a whole bunch of shitty, ugly items are in cRPG—they were grandfathered over from the native module system, not added.

[Jacko]

Keep the polls reasonable and OP clear, no subjective bs about what the community is or isn't or I will be forced to treat this as spam.

[Bjord]

Honestly, this thread is just like any other thread complaining about a mechanic, a class, a feature, anything.

You're just unhappy, and we get it, but making a highly subjective and conceit post about how said feature is "unanimously" regarded as the straw that broke cRPG's back is an utter lie grounded in nothing but frustration. It also does nothing but spread negativity, which affects not only the current players but any newcomers who happen to read this thread.

I'm sure you care about the mod, and even the community to some extent, so for your own sake try and realize that a community does not thrive on negative people's complaints and bitching, it thrives on a friendly and forgiving environment where you are allowed to do as you wish as long as you don't do it on the expense of others. If you wish that something was improved, make a constructive, non-emotional and civil thread where your arguments are based on common sense and not butthurt.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind being liked rather than disliked, not many would mind either.

Hell, despite me being one of the most disliked folks in cRPG, I always tried to contribute to a welcoming environment and always was encouraged to keep doing it.

If your fun is being jeopardized by the turn rate nerf, then maybe you should seek out games were having to adapt to new circumstances is frowned upon - like any game  from the Call of Duty franchise. Don't shit on people's fun just because your idea of fun is different.

[Dupre]

Keep the polls reasonable and OP clear, no subjective bs about what the community is or isn't or I will be forced to treat this as spam.

Please send this post to the blackhole. Very negative post towards a change that was made two years ago.... nothing good to read here.

Honestly, this thread is just like any other thread complaining about a mechanic, a class, a feature, anything.

You're just unhappy, and we get it, but making a highly subjective and conceit post about how said feature is "unanimously" regarded as the straw that broke cRPG's back is an utter lie grounded in nothing but frustration. It also does nothing but spread negativity, which affects not only the current players but any newcomers who happen to read this thread.

I'm sure you care about the mod, and even the community to some extent, so for your own sake try and realize that a community does not thrive on negative people's complaints and bitching, it thrives on a friendly and forgiving environment where you are allowed to do as you wish as long as you don't do it on the expense of others. If you wish that something was improved, make a constructive, non-emotional and civil thread where your arguments are based on common sense and not butthurt.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind being liked rather than disliked, not many would mind either.

Hell, despite me being one of the most disliked folks in cRPG, I always tried to contribute to a welcoming environment and always was encouraged to keep doing it.

If your fun is being jeopardized by the turn rate nerf, then maybe you should seek out games were having to adapt to new circumstances is frowned upon - like any game  from the Call of Duty franchise. Don't shit on people's fun just because your idea of fun is different.

Thank you, Bjord. Great reply.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

You're right that they can do whatever they want, they already have ruined it pretty badly.

I will love to see Melee Battlegrounds come out to see what the Finished product of a chadz and cmp envisioned game is like. All reports from My Sources in the alpha so far are worse than I could ever imagine..

Then what are you still doing here?

[DrTaco]

Could I get a link to the specifics on the turn speed changes? If they at all exist?

And for that matter, do even half of you understand what the fuck turning speed even means, or are you just assuming it means something?

[Teeth]

That is quite hard as clear info on mechanics is rarely  shared by developers in an easy to find way, but there have been some dev posts on the subject, which I mostly remember quite well. Searching for them is rather difficult, but I can tell you what I know.

When talking about the 'turn rate nerf' we mean the lowered speed of horizontal turning during an overhead or stab attack. Originally in Native this turn rate had a value of 14, which often meant being able to do like 120-160 degree turns during the animation, depending on the weapon speed. The first turn rate nerf halved this to 7, which meant you could turn more like 60 to 80 degrees. With a turn rate of 14 you were able to chamber lances and hit the horse in the ass if it sped by, you were able to hit any stab (1h, 2h and pole) at close reaches by starting it next to your target and dragging it into him, you were able to switch targets to someone nearly behind you. Turn rate nerf only affects horizontal turn rate and not vertical, hence why people have been able to still stab at close reaches by looking above their target and dragging it down.

The overall reduced turn rate to 7 affected fast and short weapons much more, because they got less degrees of turning due to a quick animation and because 80 degrees of turning at pike range covers much more distance than at steel pick range. This, combined with the fact that the nerf was mostly to restrict ridiculous roflcopter-stabs with enormous weapons, made a tweak necessary.

Much later this discrepancy was finally adjusted by making the severity of the restrictions based on length and weight, with a minimum turn rate of 5. The formula was posted once and I ran a few weapons through it that are important to me and I still remember the outcomes, to give you a vague idea of how it works. Great Maul, Long Maul, Pike and Longspear all went down to 5, those are the extremes on either side of the spectrum. Awlpike went up to 8. ±120 length greatswords went up to 8.5-9. Most 1h fell within a 10/12 turn rate region, which is fairly close to Native values. This made the turn rate nerf a lot more reasonable but there were still a bunch of weapons that got undeservedly fucked by it, so the devs were planning to assign turn rate values per each weapon. As far as I know this has never happened as it required going for full WSE 2, which apparently the community voted down. So this formula is the current status as far as I know, however various tweaks to stab hitboxes and animations have changed the effectiveness of stabs respective to eachother since then.

Edit:
Did a quick search and found the post by Paul with the formula, couldn't quote because the thread is locked, my memory seems to have served me about right. http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/this-double-hit-business/225/

(click to show/hide)

Currently the  turnrate is 7 during an attack. Native is 14.
With the change it will be:

1h_turnrate   =clamp(14-0.15*weight-0.06*(length-75), 7, 14)
2h_turnrate   =clamp(14-0.14*weight-0.08*(length-90), 5, 11)
pole_turnrate =clamp(13-0.18*weight-0.04*(length-140), 5, 11)
weight in 0.1kg

Example: short sword [weight=10; length=81; 1h]
1h_turnrate(short sword)=clamp(14-0.15*10-0.06*(81-75), 7, 14)=12.14

Example: great maul [weight=80; length=68; 2h]
1h_turnrate(great maul)=clamp(14-0.14*80-0.08*(68-90), 5, 11)=clamp(4.56, 5, 11)=5

Later on there is a post from Pentecost with the turn rate values of a whole bunch of weapons http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/this-double-hit-business/255/

Also found a similar poll like this one about 5 months after the original turn rate nerf http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/turn-rate-nerf-good-or-bad-for-the-game-in-general/msg673919/#msg673919

[SayAttack]

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/this-double-hit-business/255/

very interesting topic, thx... i just dont see where it says about only overhead or stab attacks.

i am quite surprised how lightly turnrate of my NCS was nerfed, because the feelings it was disgusting and fight literally ceased to be fun...
now I especially do not understand why anyone would resist the abolition of this turn-rate-nerf: who actually need turn-rate to hit-slash today? after "agipatch" u have a lot of wp and athletic, no need to turn your body - weapon damage caused already given + speed modification + agi footwork.
same with s-key: it thrives today until there is no need to make blocks. 2d polearms: and again same s-key and more agi-wp + damage by stab before animation + imo the most important thing, terrible pierse damage after those cut-pierse-blunt changes( mb someone remembers those stratbattles where people threw their cut-arms and picked up becs to even kill someone, i think it was after wse start)

now I'm even more convinced that, in comparison with the upcoming "revival",  cancellation of turn-rate-nerf does not affect the game - just make it a much more pleasant and comfortable for people who strongly turning their swing(like me^^).

[Teeth]

very interesting topic, thx... i just dont see where it says about only overhead or stab attacks.

Sideswing turn rates are very fast and always have been, what even makes you think they got slowed down? If they have been changed from Native at all, they probably have been sped up slightly. I don't have any facts to support this, but as someone who does inverted turn swings all the time, they don't work that well on Native because I can't seem to make the turns.

[SayAttack]

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/this-double-hit-business/msg697481/#msg697481

just didnt see where it in this or other posts from devs

[Kalp]

i used a great maul once.

it was such a enjoyable weapon before nerf 

[Teeth]

just didnt see where it in this or other posts from devs

http://forum.melee.org/announcements/version-0-286/
This is the patch in which the turn rate nerf was first introduced. Though that patch removed polestagger, the turn rate nerf is probably the biggest change, yet it takes 16 pages before Bjord mentions it first, without any word from any dev until then. If you want official dev postsabout which attacks exactly got changed, you can wait a long time. Everybody noticed the changes to stabs and overheads eventually, while nobody noticed any changes to sideswing turn rates, so there is no reason to believe there were any.

[SayAttack]

2Teeth
I have no reason not to believe you)
the difference in values ​​when changing direction explains what makes the game so antsy for me
thx anyway)

[Smoothrich]

http://forum.melee.org/announcements/version-0-286/
This is the patch in which the turn rate nerf was first introduced. Though that patch removed polestagger, the turn rate nerf is probably the biggest change, yet it takes 16 pages before Bjord mentions it first, without any word from any dev until then. If you want official dev postsabout which attacks exactly got changed, you can wait a long time. Everybody noticed the changes to stabs and overheads eventually, while nobody noticed any changes to sideswing turn rates, so there is no reason to believe there were any.

Because its one of the many things cmp scripted up and inserted into the mod without any input from anyone else working on the game, or even telling anyone about it in the first place, a trait of his that frustrates many people trying to volunteer as "balancers" (or trying to enjoy smooth, consistent mechanics while playing..)

And the point I'm trying to make is a lot of these cmp-dictated changes are locked up behind some root access thing that cmp alone has. No one gives a shit if cmp can't be bothered to maintain development of cRPG anymore, he's obviously been a top dog in Warband modding and is trying 2 succeed professionally in game design.

Considering the balance team/volunteer devs seem to be multiplying and patch content somehow actually increasing, along with what looks like a bunch of Nord Invasion devs helping out, maybe it is time for cmp to loosen up some of these things a bit. He can still wield blanket veto power on the modded engine he's cobbled together, but him (or chadz? lol.. jk) should let some of the guys who've stepped up a lot at least like.. do all those custom turn speed changes he talked about 1-2 years ago. Or just remove all turn speed restrictions except for 180+ reach attacks or crushthrough overheads or something.

2Teeth
I have no reason not to believe you)
the difference in values ​​when changing direction explains what makes the game so antsy for me
thx anyway)

Yeah. It's this persistent feeling in everything you do when you play cRPG, that it isn't as fun as it can be. You aren't really controlling your character the way you want, but randomly hitting and being defeated by invisible butchered hardcoded limitations into your angles of attack, or "hit activation sweetspots" that have been fucked beyond recognition from Warband values.

And every patch from our balance team just keeps caking  more shit on top because the root changes were done by cmp, the lead coder of cRPG, who could think of some kind of idea and script it into the game immediately with secret server side patches. And now its basically a brand new team working on cRPG, but anything once coded by this guy is stuck in the game, even if changes are necessary for balance, because cmp is the AFK dictator dev with the last (and usually only) say in all the mechanics.

Also no one is going to really say anything like this in public, because cmp is their "mod boss" and they would be done, modding with the fishes. You can just tell that all of the nerds posting here with knowledge of game mechanics and dev-work in this mod are just itching4bitching more. Don't be pussies

[Bjord]

Because its one of the many things cmp scripted up and inserted into the mod without any input from anyone else working on the game, or even telling anyone about it in the first place, a trait of his that frustrates many people trying to volunteer as "balancers" (or trying to enjoy smooth, consistent mechanics while playing..)

And the point I'm trying to make is a lot of these cmp-dictated changes are locked up behind some root access thing that cmp alone has. No one gives a shit if cmp can't be bothered to maintain development of cRPG anymore, he's obviously been a top dog in Warband modding and is trying 2 succeed professionally in game design.

Considering the balance team/volunteer devs seem to be multiplying and patch content somehow actually increasing, along with what looks like a bunch of Nord Invasion devs helping out, maybe it is time for cmp to loosen up some of these things a bit. He can still wield blanket veto power on the modded engine he's cobbled together, but him (or chadz? lol.. jk) should let some of the guys who've stepped up a lot at least like.. do all those custom turn speed changes he talked about 1-2 years ago. Or just remove all turn speed restrictions except for 180+ reach attacks or crushthrough overheads or something.

Yeah. It's this persistent feeling in everything you do when you play cRPG, that it isn't as fun as it can be. You aren't really controlling your character the way you want, but randomly hitting and being defeated by invisible butchered hardcoded limitations into your angles of attack, or "hit activation sweetspots" that have been fucked beyond recognition from Warband values.

And every patch from our balance team just keeps caking  more shit on top because the root changes were done by cmp, the lead coder of cRPG, who could think of some kind of idea and script it into the game immediately with secret server side patches. And now its basically a brand new team working on cRPG, but anything once coded by this guy is stuck in the game, even if changes are necessary for balance, because cmp is the AFK dictator dev with the last (and usually only) say in all the mechanics.

Also no one is going to really say anything like this in public, because cmp is their "mod boss" and they would be done, modding with the fishes. You can just tell that all of the nerds posting here with knowledge of game mechanics and dev-work in this mod are just itching4bitching more. Don't be pussies

Source, please.

Else I'll just disregard your post as frustrated rantings and fictional insights into the secret unbalancing agendas of cmp.

You were always a premium shit poster, Smooth, I mean. At least you have the benefit of the doubt.