Reverse mode and knockdowns

[Kafein]

Knockdown from the 1hs has always been a pet peeve of mine.
There is really nothing I dislike more in CRPG. (Knockdown in general)

I find it doesn't add anything to the game for me, only detracts from it. I don't want the ability to get a cheap swing on an opponent leading to free hits, it just cheapens it for me.
On the otherside, getting hit by a knockdown weapon, ending up on the floor and usually dieing. That's pretty irritating to say the least.
Especially when the hit does less than 10% damage, yet I still end up on the floor for them to likely kill me. (Usually 1hs from my experience)

In a dream scenario, I'd like to see knockdown removed from most the 1h weapons, leaving just the heavier ones like warhammer, military hammer etc.

This could be tied in with a 1h rebalance
- shield skill to every 6 agi (free up points, allows 1hers to get similar builds to 2h/polearms at the same levels e.g. 18 21 lvl 30)
- 1h stab nerf (keep the animation, reduce damage 1-2 points)
- a buff to the weapons that lose KD (dmg or speed were appropriate)

Just my 2 cents/pennies

All this hysteria about 1h knockdown is purely psychological. In fact 2h and pole knockdown weapons were and are still much better overall and knock people down much more often. It was already the case before but since the knockdown chance patch, knockdown with 1h basically never happens. The reason people don't complain about 2h or polearm knockdown is because when they get hit by either of those things they expect to die in much fewer hits than with 1h and indeed they do. Now throw knockdown into the mix, when it takes 8 hits to down someone using a 1h hammer, knockdown was very likely to happen at some point. Not so much with a 2h or pole that requires half as much hits.

The only problem I see with knockdown is that it's random. The fact that it adds damage is actually good, because this mod has a general lack of weapons that are effective against armor, especially in the 1h department.

[Senni__Ti]

When I used to use knockdown 1h, it caused me to teamwound allies about as often as it enabled a "free" kill (knock someone down, teammate accidentally walks over them while they are on the ground). I'd probably be more likely to use the Spathovaklion if it had knockdown removed, as its stats are still nice without knockdown. Military Sickle would fit the bill if it didn't look like a farm implement.

Your shield skill idea is interesting, although 4 shield skill is all anyone really needs nowadays, and that's still a good use of points compared to say 4 IF. 1h stab is indeed quite powerful, but as long as 2h has lolstab and pole has lightning overheads and right swing, 1h might as well have something OP as well.

Even if a teammate walked on the player on the floor, I'm guessing the player on the floor was still the one who ended up dead 90% of the time?
Getting KD on the first hit with a very fast weapon is the thing I hate the most. This is pretty much the 1h KDers (couple of polearms are like it aswell), and it's like iceing on an already pretty disgusting cake (it's really bad iceing ).

Even if you don't get the free hit on the ground, someone else might. Also even if they don't get hit on the ground, they've been stuck on the spot awhile now, more than enough time for them to be completely outflanked, resulting in them dieing shortly afterwards.
And its really good at breaking concentration and demoralizing, I mean how often do people calmly get through it and win?

Shield skill wise, it came to me after speaking to a couple of friends who are long term 1hers and playing for a gen and to level 32/33 myself; it's pretty odd that 1h get lower dmg weapons, worse animations in many respects and worse skills/builds for the same level.

Just seems like a stack of negative things and it's hard to balance a stack. It would be easier if their negatives were focused in fewer areas.
So, to reduce damage: worse weapons, not worse weapons and builds.

Seems overly convoluted atm in that respect.

Regards to stab, it just seems like they had artificially high dmg, due to the old animations sucking and rarely doing full dmg.
Now the animation is great, yet they still have stabs outstripping most 2hs and many polearms and isn't proportionate to the swing.

[Senni__Ti]

All this hysteria about 1h knockdown is purely psychological.

1H KNOCKDOWN IS COMING!
THE WORLD IS ENDING KAFEIN, THE WORLD IS ENDING.

I am aware polearms and 2h do knockdown regularly. (I did mention I dislike knockdown in general)
I disagree that it happens more often with 2h and polearms.
1) 1h KD weapons tend to be a more common occurrence
2) 1h is easier to hit the head with
3) 1h can swing faster, more swings can occur in the same time frame with a 1h than polearm or 2h (average polearm, 2h, 1h)

And regardless of the frequency, I still find it's a broken fun-sapping mechanic, that occurs often enough for me to make this post.

[Wraist]

^I don't think 1h can attack more often than 2h/pole, or at least in any meaningful sense.

1h KB pisses me off because they could do it with a shield, if they don't have a shield, I don't particularly care

[AwesomeHail]

2hers usually have more str than 1hers, so kd occurs more often there?
anyways, there are plenty of weps that are good against tincans (fucking steel picks man, they kill the game)
when i go 1h i go swashbuckler, and that sucks in general.

(click to show/hide)

buff 1h no shield

[Huscarlton_Banks]

On adding knockdown to 1h secondary modes:

• I would vote yes on adding knockdown to those secondary modes, though I still probably wouldn't use them.
• Weight basically doesn't matter for knockdown unless the weapon is over 3 weight. Head/leg knockdown chance never changes unless weapons have over 3 weight. The difference between 2 weight at 2.4 weight at +3 for military/steel pick is that at 2 weight, there is a max chance of 0% body hit knockdown, and at 2.4 weight they have a max chance of 0.94% body hit knockdown.
• With the above in mind, 1h blunt really lacks variety for anyone who swings at the head/legs, the maximum chance any of them can get is 22.5%, and 0-3 weight weapons all have the same kd curve for hitting head/legs based on damage, so the Spathovaklion just outclasses almost all of them.

On knockdown in general:

• I think the current 7.5% minimum knockdown rate on any hit to head/legs makes people think knockdown is a lot stronger than it is when they end up taking large amounts of damage from following hits after a glance knockdown.
• I think the formula could use more work for weapons with 3 weight, it shouldn't just ignore their weight entirely for head/leg hits otherwise weapons that end up 3+ after heirlooming get a bit more benefits from it. Alternatively, just find some other way to make 1h blunt seem more varied.

1h can swing faster, more swings can occur in the same time frame with a 1h than polearm or 2h (average polearm, 2h, 1h)

I don't think that this is a valid point for actual combat unless nobody bothers targetting, blocking, or moving away from you.

[Senni__Ti]

It was just a point on the frequency of knockdowns, 1h gets more attempts in the same timeframe.
That's all.

[Wraist]

^But you also have to account for length, and weapon weight so a heavy 2her/pole could hypothetically swing atleast twice for every 1her swing.

[San]

I just never liked the pick weapons being able to stun others so easily. It gave me many free wins and felt like an exploit, since the weapon is fast, powerful, and heavy all in one. It is unfortunate that weight doesn't do anything until after 3, but a good argument against it is that it might not be so bad that damage is the sole determiner before weight begins to factor.

It's hard to say which gets more knockdowns, especially since 2h/pole blunt weapons are likely to kill before getting the knockdown. I believe the formula is WSE and therefore probably isn't going to be changed.

If people decide to use the alt mode 1-5% of the time instead of 0%, I'll consider it a success as long as the stats are acceptable.

[Kafein]

It was just a point on the frequency of knockdowns, 1h gets more attempts in the same timeframe.
That's all.

But they don't. Slower and shorter weapons (on average) don't get more hits. The thing is, if you consider single hits, the 1h hits are less likely to kill therefore more likely to knockdown.

Also note that since the introduction of rolls, knockdowns already had very little remaining impact on combat. It's fairly easy to achieve 100% rolling hence a knockdown is actually a liability in that context as it removes the initiative for the next hit, instead of giving a free hit.

[Senni__Ti]

But they don't. Slower and shorter weapons (on average) don't get more hits.

Slow?

Which weapon are you talking about?
Slowest I could find is 95 speed. (military hammer)

The thing is, if you consider single hits, the 1h hits are less likely to kill therefore more likely to knockdown.

Polearm and 2h KD weapons don't tend to kill in one hit either.
They would be more likely to KD on a single hit basis. (If KD is largely raw dmg based, which iirc it is)

Also note that since the introduction of rolls, knockdowns already had very little remaining impact on combat. It's fairly easy to achieve 100% rolling hence a knockdown is actually a liability in that context as it removes the initiative for the next hit, instead of giving a free hit.

Hard to comment on without data.

[MURDERTRON]

Senni, speed doesn't translate directly across like that.  Also don't forget to factor in that having a shield slows your swings down too.  Plus 1hers are generally shorter and can't start swinging until they're closer in.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I haven't really noticed pick stunning (or heck, using 1hs in general for stunning, even Iron Battle Axe/any blunt weapon that ends up 2.5+ weight) being a big thing except against people using really light 1hs with no shield, though maybe it's just my build having low str/ps and me/other people not using enough held overheads. I guess I can't complain about the change if it doesn't really affect me though, and 100 speed 30b + kd at +3 seems too lulzy to pass up even if +3 Spathovaklion has .5 more weight and 11 more length with the same damage.

I don't think having a shield slows swings down for weapons that are just 1h weapons, I'd say that lack of reach + slower movement speed from shield weight/points used up in shield skill that could go to AGI/ATH make up for any speed differences though. Staff/Quarterstaff are pretty much the kings of viable kd attempts/second, and they're really easy to swing at the feet with.

[Senni__Ti]

I haven't really noticed pick stunning (or heck, using 1hs in general for stunning, even Iron Battle Axe/any blunt weapon that ends up 2.5+ weight) being a big thing except against people using really light 1hs with no shield, though maybe it's just my build having low str/ps and me/other people not using enough held overheads. I guess I can't complain about the change if it doesn't really affect me though, and 100 speed 30b + kd at +3 seems too lulzy to pass up even if +3 Spathovaklion has .5 more weight and 11 more length with the same damage.

I don't think having a shield slows swings down for weapons that are just 1h weapons, I'd say that lack of reach + slower movement speed from shield weight/points used up in shield skill that could go to AGI/ATH make up for any speed differences though. Staff/Quarterstaff are pretty much the kings of viable kd attempts/second, and they're really easy to swing at the feet with.

Yeah, hard to beat the staff/quarterstaff on KD potential.
They are a pretty large deviation from the norm though, tbh I'm not sure why they have KD either.

I disagree about the speed difference though, the lack of reach does prevent the first hit in most fights, but most fights usually close in range pretty quick.
Besides, not all 1hers have shields. I've noticed quite a few swashbucklers with just maces floating around. (EU)

On my 1h, I found it quite possible to spam people with a mil hammer, getting frequent KD. (24 18, aimed for the face)

[Phew]

I think most people choosing 1h picks/maces/hammers nowadays value hard-to-see models moreso than knockdown or stats. Everyone complains about the Spathovaklion being hard to see, but with Final Boss' texture pack it's a bright silver (much easier to see than the normal dark gray). Like I said before, I'm not a fan of 1h knockdown, but I do love the thump sound that blunt weapons make on contact.

I really wish the Spathovaklion had knockdown removed (maybe have 1b added to compensate). Then we'd have a nice thumpy 1h weapon without dealing with all the annoyances of knockdown. That thing doesn't look like it could knock anyone over; it has less mass at the head than any axe.