Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 55491 times)

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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #660 on: November 24, 2013, 06:06:02 pm »
0
Those changes wouldnt change the amount of ranged players. Which since it was never balanced to discourage ranged, now in my eyes became a problem. Again, i meanwhile see the amount of ranged players as a problem, not only their stats, builds item values but how many there are actually at any given time on a server.

One solution could be, fix a percentage of ranged weapons per server:
F.e.
- 20% of all players on eu1 maybe ranged or
- 40% of all players on eu2 maybe ranged

You could tweek those numbers on a weekly base, similar to a flavour of the month build ^^. You could do so with any type of weapon and therfor get very intresting overall combinations.

Another thing, maybe it is time to get rid of banner balance or change it in a way, so that most of a class(ranged/Quincy, cav/GK arent mercs nwo also mainly cav players?) wouldnt end up all in one team, but get balanced teams not only on k/d based but "class/weapon type" based. Another annoyance you could get rid of by that, is the flamewars on the servers of none clan members against clans(you know of whom/what i speak there ^^). By default i like the bannerbalance, but not to the cost of unbalanced teams, whihc then map after map dominate. That then is no fun for the remaining folks and either tehy leave discouraged or join on of those clans, good for those clans bad for cRPG.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #661 on: November 24, 2013, 06:06:35 pm »
+1
Other balancers don't agree though.

Other balancers play the mod and know very well how much of a nerf to STR this was. They just respecced from slow tanks to a faster tanks with all the benefits of extra speed. Lost some HP, lost some damage, gained movement speed and a bit faster swing speed. Only those who stayed truthful to their 0/1 WM build suffer from reduced attack speed and damage.

As always, you fall a victim to community cries which usually hold no ground in practice. Before, full STR build was both a choice of skilled minority who like the build for it's brute characteristics and choice of hundreds of fools who can't play so they relied on heavy armor, high HP, great damage output and game glitches to actually perform decent in this mod.

Edit: If you want to fix "ranged issue" all you have to do is to remove projectile stun.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 06:12:13 pm by Leshma »

Offline Kafein

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #662 on: November 24, 2013, 08:31:22 pm »
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However, according to your explanation, it looks like the problems you have with ranged is the mere existence of ranged weapons in the game rather than their actual strengths and potential. Even if ranged would get a blanket 50 % damage, missile- and drawspeed nerf, you would still die to it and your original problem would still remain, which is dying to something you cannot avoid as easily with your build as dying to melees that are in your plain sight. While this may be toning down the negative experiences at your side it would surely come at the severe expense of every ranged player in the game and not a fair one at all for them.

This brings me back to my original advise. Dont get me wrong Kafein. I can understand your hate but ranged inevitably IS in the game and if they would not be able to cause any harm on your side, there would be no point of playing them at all. I am a low-hp, light-armored archer which means that my primary way of attacking can only be achieved by staying stationary for about 1 second or more. You can imagine how much I had to deal with missles in every of my 16 gens as archer. Still, is nerfing ranged really the solution to your problem ? Or may it be just, and there is certainly no intention to insult you hidden in here, your numbing hate that gives you the impression that nerfing ranged would be a suitable punishment for all the suffering they brought upon you, instead of an actual act of balance ?

I do not want to nerf archers in the traditional sense, such as reducing damage or accuracy. I want to make more room for skill in dodging, and even though I do not personally care, indirectly buff archers that are good at leading targets. The problem with getting shot is not getting shot, it's that I am punished even though I played perfectly (which is not always the case). This has a lot to do with expectations about cRPG on my end. Because I love the melee combat system so much, I expect the rest of the game to be just as good, and it really isn't. If you imagine a perfect player in a melee combat, he would basically block everything and never get hit. There is no such thing with ranged combat. Actually no, you could imagine a perfect archer that would always shoot exactly in the right direction, but a perfect dodger would get shot nonetheless, even in neutral circumstances. This is not a huge problem with new players and it really wasn't when Warband first came out. Everybody was a crappy blocker and a crappy dodger, everybody died at range and in melee. With time people massively improved in skill, reaching a point the game was never designed to endure in the first place (this is evident if we consider the number of unresolved bugs such as hiltslashing). Right now most good players are getting very close to perfect blocker and perfect dodger status and for most of them the contrast between blocking correctly: never getting hit and dodging correctly: getting shot anyway is a huge problem. You can improve your dodging all you like, it won't work even half as consistently as blocking a melee weapon.

What I want is to stop the half-assed nerfs and buffs to ranged weapons and change this state of fact. It doesn't even require much effort : reduce missile speed and increase accuracy/draw speed/damage equivalently, as much as is needed to remain balanced after the missile speed nerf.

Ranged will kill people. It is not like I never play on melee alts and stf's and even I find myself yelling "FUCKING RANGED" in ts every now and then. But then I quickly remember what kind of sacrifices they have to make just to be able to use a ranged weapon properly ( well maybe not so much for xbow ).

I don't think this is a proper argument. Everybody has made choices and sacrifices with their builds, archers not more than others.


Frankly, if you taste rage on your tongue when you get shot while attacking a castle, which is probably the very circumstance in which ranged is supposed to shine, then I can wholeheartedly recommend to take a break from the game and relax a bit. Making things not too easy for archers and alike is the responsibility of map makers and proper game modes, like Joker pointed out for a bazillion times ( which I highly approve ) but it certainly is not achieved by panic reactions like blanket banning ranged mobility as we have seen it in the past IMO.

I think the quiver weight patch was a quick solution and indeed a panic move to solve the constant kiting that was plaguing battle servers. And it actually worked as in, it removed much of the kiting. But at a severe price that I am sure you have a more detailed idea than me. The clear issue here was Battle mode, as Joker put it.



The second problem with ranged is the absence of proper counters which naturally drives the population up but that's a completely different debate.

Offline Angellore

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #663 on: November 24, 2013, 11:37:53 pm »
0
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged.
Isn't it atm? I made a test some time ago as Horse Archer, Horn Bow +3, Bodkins +3 against Heraldic Transitional Armor +3 and Heavy Gauntlets +3. I needed 27 (TWENTY SEVEN!) body hits to kill my friend with Heraldic armor, and it's not even full plate armor. The thing is, in battle conditions, you can't hit the guy 27 times in a row, you will lose much more arrows to do so. Isn't it enough protection as it is now?

The only thing I don't really like in current formula is speed bonus from horse, it gives too much final damage imo (more than twice as much damage as standing - you nerfed horse ranged accuracy few months ago instead of changing this bonus). After accuracy nerf it's really hard to hit someone using full speed bonus - most of the times, you don't use even half the speed of your horse while shooting. Hitting someone from time to time with full speed bonus, causes people to cry how OP horse ranged are, because people thinks it's normal HA/HX damage, but it isn't.

Anyway, can you please PLAY some class for a while, before nerfing it just like that, without any knowledge about it? Because not long time ago everyone agreed HA is surely the most underpowered class, but now suddenly HA is OP, and need to be nerfed? Because it has 10 WPF more than before path?

Main reason why people are mad is because one clan made 10 HA chars, using same banner to abuse broken crpg balance system. Maybe fix the balance in first place, and then see how the game will look like?

Offline Rebelyell

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #664 on: November 25, 2013, 07:51:28 am »
+1
Isn't it atm? I made a test some time ago as Horse Archer, Horn Bow +3, Bodkins +3 against Heraldic Transitional Armor +3 and Heavy Gauntlets +3. I needed 27 (TWENTY SEVEN!) body hits to kill my friend with Heraldic armor, and it's not even full plate armor. The thing is, in battle conditions, you can't hit the guy 27 times in a row, you will lose much more arrows to do so. Isn't it enough protection as it is now?

The only thing I don't really like in current formula is speed bonus from horse, it gives too much final damage imo (more than twice as much damage as standing - you nerfed horse ranged accuracy few months ago instead of changing this bonus). After accuracy nerf it's really hard to hit someone using full speed bonus - most of the times, you don't use even half the speed of your horse while shooting. Hitting someone from time to time with full speed bonus, causes people to cry how OP horse ranged are, because people thinks it's normal HA/HX damage, but it isn't.

Anyway, can you please PLAY some class for a while, before nerfing it just like that, without any knowledge about it? Because not long time ago everyone agreed HA is surely the most underpowered class, but now suddenly HA is OP, and need to be nerfed? Because it has 10 WPF more than before path?

Main reason why people are mad is because one clan made 10 HA chars, using same banner to abuse broken crpg balance system. Maybe fix the balance in first place, and then see how the game will look like?
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« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:46:53 pm by Rebelyell »
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Offline Blackbow

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #665 on: November 25, 2013, 10:31:19 am »
+2
Those changes wouldnt change the amount of ranged players. Which since it was never balanced to discourage ranged, now in my eyes became a problem. Again, i meanwhile see the amount of ranged players as a problem, not only their stats, builds item values but how many there are actually at any given time on a server.

One solution could be, fix a percentage of ranged weapons per server:
F.e.
- 20% of all players on eu1 maybe ranged or
- 40% of all players on eu2 maybe ranged

You could tweek those numbers on a weekly base, similar to a flavour of the month build ^^. You could do so with any type of weapon and therfor get very intresting overall combinations.

Another thing, maybe it is time to get rid of banner balance or change it in a way, so that most of a class(ranged/Quincy, cav/GK arent mercs nwo also mainly cav players?) wouldnt end up all in one team, but get balanced teams not only on k/d based but "class/weapon type" based. Another annoyance you could get rid of by that, is the flamewars on the servers of none clan members against clans(you know of whom/what i speak there ^^). By default i like the bannerbalance, but not to the cost of unbalanced teams, whihc then map after map dominate. That then is no fun for the remaining folks and either tehy leave discouraged or join on of those clans, good for those clans bad for cRPG.

there is too many agi spamer shielder
imo add shield skill based on strengh instead of agi ... they have unbreakable shield they are fast and still does tons of damage
so put shield skill on strengh should balance a bit more shielders build coz every shielder is using same kind of agibuild...

about the quota of archers when it will be done ppl will ask quota for cavs too ?
dont be stupid plz ...

the problem is we dont have eu 4 anymore to split ranged population ...
edit : an other problem was the uncessary last buff of archers
now archery is really more easy and accesible to everyone...
this archery buff have been made in the worst way ever but .... only missile speed needed a buff

now horse archers have acces to all op bows from 1 to 5 power draw
those bows have better range and missile speed than rus and long that's realy stupid ...
long and rus are suposed to be long range bows and they have less range than a nomad bow

« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 10:58:04 am by blackbow »
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Offline Utrakil

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #666 on: November 25, 2013, 12:58:08 pm »
0
there is too many agi spamer shielder
imo add shield skill based on strengh instead of agi ... they have unbreakable shield they are fast and still does tons of damage
so put shield skill on strengh should balance a bit more shielders build coz every shielder is using same kind of agibuild...

As a shielder I would love this change. because Shields break so easy you need at least 5-6 shieldskill. this doesn't leave a lot for STR and PS.

But are you shure you want to have turtles with almost unbreakable shields and 9 PS? With the forcefield we do not rely that much on dodging than most folks.
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Offline Butan

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #667 on: November 25, 2013, 01:31:54 pm »
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Problem isnt shield skill need AGI (if it was STR, you would see STR crutcher with unbreakable shield, thats why it is AGI, even though it would solve the very high ATH problem), the problem is the few very low STR req weapons that does very high damage. Daggers are, sadly, an extreme agi build niche that is completely OP if not focused, and very often last till overtime.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 01:35:34 pm by Butan »

Offline kinngrimm

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #668 on: November 25, 2013, 01:36:30 pm »
0
there is too many agi spamer shielder
imo add shield skill based on strengh instead of agi ... they have unbreakable shield they are fast and still does tons of damage
so put shield skill on strengh should balance a bit more shielders build coz every shielder is using same kind of agibuild...
i remember a time with less of both, shielders aswell as ranged .. .wonder why both counts increased? While i can see an argument, for 2h/pole changing to shield or ranged, i am not so sure about any other reasons but then to either join the ranged because there is no other way to fight them or to join shield to at least have one side protected ... which but merily is an illusion when it comes to fighting more then one ranged player which is the usual thing you need to do.


about the quota of archers when it will be done ppl will ask quota for cavs too ?
dont be stupid plz ...
I try not to be stupid, also i try not to imply others would be.
I wouldnt have a problem with quotas for any type of weapon, as i said that could become a thing to change the game dynamic and have yet another tool for balancing. If a quota is reached people need to log with an alt, thereby alt characters would get more traction.


the problem is we dont have eu 4 anymore to split ranged population ...
doesnt change a thing in my opinion

edit : an other problem was the uncessary last buff of archers
now archery is really more easy and accesible to everyone...
this archery buff have been made in the worst way ever but .... only missile speed needed a buff

now horse archers have acces to all op bows from 1 to 5 power draw
those bows have better range and missile speed than rus and long that's realy stupid ...
long and rus are suposed to be long range bows and they have less range than a nomad bow
I cant really tell which stats need to be nerved or buffed with ranged, there i have seen others making good and sensible suggestions, i just know, there are too many and a quota might just be 'a' not necessarily the 'best' solution.
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Offline Phew

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #669 on: November 25, 2013, 02:58:40 pm »
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a quota might just be 'a' not necessarily the 'best' solution.

Quotas are a bad idea (just buff the under-played classes until people play them), but class-based team balance is a good idea that really should be implemented.

Offline Cup1d

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #670 on: November 25, 2013, 04:07:51 pm »
0
sure its ok for you butan with your ole tank armour :D if i wear 50-55 body armour i get 2 shot by any and every ranged except some HA with the worst bows :D

You can have 50 body armor and still do not have any wpf penalty.  I've got 50 body armor on my archer char, and I do not expect to be immune to ranged. Even without this immunity I often survive 4-6 arrows with this body armor.

On the other hand I see here another disbalance. THe problem is - no real purpose to have LIGHT armored character. In 2010 we had some clever solution for any character with overall armor weight amidst 0-5.0. (it was bonus wpf). Today you can be medium armored character without any weakness.

Offline Cup1d

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #671 on: November 25, 2013, 04:14:20 pm »
0
Problem isnt shield skill need AGI (if it was STR, you would see STR crutcher with unbreakable shield, thats why it is AGI, even though it would solve the very high ATH problem)

Dont you think that it'll be more realistic to have both STR/AG requirements for shields? I do not mean that steel shield must have 21str/21agi requirements, but 15/15 looks way better than contemporary builds with 13 shield skill.

Offline Utrakil

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #672 on: November 25, 2013, 04:36:31 pm »
+1
And what makes you think that only shielder should have a very small variation for their build? The variation range compared to pure melee is already smaler because they can convert less skill points(needed for shield).
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Offline Phew

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #673 on: November 25, 2013, 04:43:19 pm »
+1
13 shield characters may be annoying to fight, but they don't really affect the outcome of the round (in either battle or siege), so it's not a balance issue. Besides, they can be easily countered with kicks, nudges, crushthrough, and teamwork (shields only protect roughly your front third arc from melee, regardless of shield skill).

I'm always amazed by the players that run around with solely a longsword (and 2 free slots) then complain about cav, ranged, and/or shielders. Bring a spear, hunting xbow, shield, or axe/maul. Your Longsword is great in a lot of situations, but you can't expect it to be ideal for EVERY situation. Whatever class annoys you most, use your 2 free slots to equip its counter.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 04:50:46 pm by Phew »

Offline Cup1d

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #674 on: November 25, 2013, 09:10:37 pm »
0
And what makes you think that only shielder should have a very small variation for their build? The variation range compared to pure melee is already smaler because they can convert less skill points(needed for shield).

Cmon, no one force you to take powerstrike dude. You are absolutely free to do any freak defensive build.


13 shield characters may be annoying to fight, but they don't really affect the outcome of the round (in either battle or siege), so it's not a balance issue. Besides, they can be easily countered with kicks, nudges, crushthrough, and teamwork (shields only protect roughly your front third arc from melee, regardless of shield skill).

I'm always amazed by the players that run around with solely a longsword (and 2 free slots) then complain about cav, ranged, and/or shielders. Bring a spear, hunting xbow, shield, or axe/maul. Your Longsword is great in a lot of situations, but you can't expect it to be ideal for EVERY situation. Whatever class annoys you most, use your 2 free slots to equip its counter.

Try to nudge, kick or crushtrough lolshield horseman with a charger-bumper.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:21:43 pm by Cup1d »