Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 55337 times)

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Offline Nehvar

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #645 on: November 24, 2013, 01:58:44 am »
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Ok, I'm interested.  Where do I sign up?
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #646 on: November 24, 2013, 02:36:38 am »
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...
I am not sure how to say this Kafein and I am sure you will excuse me if I may be mistaken but it somehow gives people the impression that you in fact do care about ranged hits, a lot....
the missunderstanding maybe in the term "care/carring"
a) not giving a shit
b) doesnt make any difference

You XyNox i think took version a) while Kafein version b)
To get to version b) is quite simple, depending on ranged weapon and build(yours and opponents) you maybe dead after 1 to 2 shots, no matter the armor you use. With the amounts of headshots also accure, armor deosnt matter at all, so not carrying about armor when it comes to ranged is quite obvious and others have taken the same conclusion if not to the same extent but the same tendency.
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Offline Mr.K.

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #647 on: November 24, 2013, 08:29:11 am »
+5
All four (1h, 2h, pole, hoplite) stabs are very good, and pretty equally balanced with each other.

Just accept that stabs are powerful for everyone now (as they were historically), and down block a lot? I don't see the problem.

2H stab is long and really slow (unless you manage to connect early in the animation) and polearm stab is shorter and faster than the right swing for example.

1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

True, 1H stab wasn't good enough, but it should not have the best reach. A small tweak is needed to make right swing the longer one again.

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #648 on: November 24, 2013, 08:53:40 am »
0
the missunderstanding maybe in the term "care/carring"
a) not giving a shit
b) doesnt make any difference

You XyNox i think took version a) while Kafein version b)
To get to version b) is quite simple, depending on ranged weapon and build(yours and opponents) you maybe dead after 1 to 2 shots, no matter the armor you use. With the amounts of headshots also accure, armor deosnt matter at all, so not carrying about armor when it comes to ranged is quite obvious and others have taken the same conclusion if not to the same extent but the same tendency.

Armor matters a lot. Sometimes I play with cheap stuff (low armor) and get 1-2 shot, with my heavy stuff I survive around 8 projectiles. Of course speed bonus has a signicifant impact but I hardly find myself 1-2 hit ever with my heavy stuff.
Some horse archers or long range arrows dont deal damage at all. Sadly the amount of ranged is so high that, once engaged with enemies, every 2-5 seconds one projectile either hits or flies past me.

Offline Kafein

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #649 on: November 24, 2013, 02:22:45 pm »
+4
For a second, I was considering to put a sarcasm hint in my post but then I thought, nobody would actually misunderstand that my post is nothing more than a sarcastic retort. It was aimed to be retarded Kafein ... I merely took your words and switched "archery" with "2h"  :)

By the way, when we spoke ingame that other day, ( that day when you wrote "full sprint, zigzag and I still get headshot" while I was actually clearly seeing you running in a straight line because i was 2 meters behind you, remember ? ) when I asked you why you never wear armor, you said you just dont care about ranged hits anymore. I want to ask you Kafein:

As long as I can remember, for several years straight now, you come up with the most extraordinary reasons and ideas about why and how ranged needs nerfs. Day in, day out. On top of that, let us take a look at your sig:

(click to show/hide)

...

I am not sure how to say this Kafein and I am sure you will excuse me if I may be mistaken but it somehow gives people the impression that you in fact do care about ranged hits, a lot.

I am aware that this is the internet and people are pretty fast when it comes to accusing complete foreigners of all kinds of misdeeds, especially in this community in my humble opinion I am afraid to say. Still, and again I beg your pardon if I judge the situation inadequately, given your eagerness when it comes to raising your opinion regarding ranged ballance in this game and also taking into account your stunning endurance with which you pursue those affairs, I am almost temped to think that you are in fact obsessed with the subject of getting ranged nerfed at all costs.

I am well aware that expressing such outright ludicrous assumptions, especially on the internet as stated above, may yield me an argumentum ad hominem rather then the self-reflexive and rational retort I am looking for. Yet I finally have to ask, dont you think you are overreacting a bit when it comes to ranged Kafein ? If you take stock of yourself and really ask yourself that question, will you be able to answer it with "no" in all honesty? If I can give you the advise without it being taken as choleric from your side,  take a break from the game - it sure helped me to enjoy it more.  :)

Now if you would excuse me, I will enjoy my new MW espada before my melee capabilities get nerfed again  :mrgreen:

Fair point, you made me realise my post was rather unclear on that subject.

I do not wear armor for multiple reasons :

- no upkeep so the money flows in and I can afford to pay for the clan banner and renew my title
- it clearly made me better at blocking and melee as a whole
- moving fast is fun and very powerful
- the absence of wpf malus noticeably increases my damage output, which I care a lot about
- I'm almost unique in that regard, and certainly have the main character that remained consistently naked for the longest length of time. My hipster brain likes this
- it suits my natural agiwhore playstyle better. When I play heavy infantry I have to make the effort to stay near teammates

Now on why I'm naked with respect to ranged :

Over the years, I have concluced that deaths due to ranged are in fact very similar to the game crashing to desktop. You are happily playing then at random some event you have hardly any influence over happens and you can't play anymore. Even though the analogy is not incredibly accurate, ranged deaths are closer to a CTD than melee deaths, because when it's melee my own input has a huge influence on the outcome. For this reason, dying to ranged is about as infuriating as a CTD. I also realised that the rage buildup had to be vented somewhere, which I think I successfully did both ingame and on the forums with mostly constructive comments about balance and what could be done on the forum and mostly inane one liners ingame. Two things were absolutely critical to remain zen : quitting Battle mode and removing my armor. After doing both of these things, it comes out that deaths of any kind are in fact futile, as I die in one/two hits dying is always only seconds away and I can respawn anyway. On some maps I was killed nearly a dozen times in a row by Ronald outside the walls as attacker because I was standing still and he kept on shooting. I even said in chat "you will run out of bolts before I run out of lives". Being naked acheives my goal of being a waste of an arrow, even though when I'm doing good it's not that true. But mostly it acheives my goal of convincing myself that my lives aren't valuable because they really aren't. The rage comes when something valuable is taken away from you arbitrarily and unjustly, i.e. being shot.



What I would like to think some of my arguments about ranged balance are trying to convey is that this disconnection between ranged death and player input should be addressed. And as always, be fixed in a way that is fair for everybody, including ranged players. My hatred for ranged players is real, and justified : imagine yourself in a shooter where some players are isolated from the others and can push buttons that kill the other players at will. Would you not hate them were you one of the victims ? But it doesn't mean the game is bound to work like that. Had those guys a clear weakness I could exploit or were their attacks actually avoidable, the game would be fine.

The mod already had a lot of unfair or partly broken direct nerfs towards archery in particular in the past, xbows remaining mostly untouched despite being a bigger problem in many regards. Some of the nerfs were needed and improved the mod simply because melee becomes weaker all the time. But all that was mostly patching up something that was more deeply broken than the characteristics of individual weapons or movement speed. Both problems of countering ranged with anything else and surviving ranged despite being shot at have remained mostly the same to this day. I think it's understandable as there are few possible modifications that would not break something in the game.


Offline Osiris

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #650 on: November 24, 2013, 03:23:53 pm »
0
there is always the fact that I get two shot by nearly any archer in loomed saranid mail + loomed mail gauntlets while also getting two shot wearing unloomed rags and no gloves. Sure the first shot does 50% the second 80-90% but the effect is always the same :( two shot or one by arrow one by melee :P so why wear medium armours if naked is more fun ^^
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Offline XyNox

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #651 on: November 24, 2013, 03:24:54 pm »
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I am glad for the objective response Kafein and I can clearly see where you are coming from. I want to refrain from comig up with any smart-ass advise about how to counter ranged because we already have 200 threads in this forum filled with nothing else. Instead, as I can imagine it surely does not always look this way, I totally believe you when you say there are moments in which you cant escape to be hit by ranged ( occupied in a duel for example where proper dodging doest work ).

However, according to your explanation, it looks like the problems you have with ranged is the mere existence of ranged weapons in the game rather than their actual strengths and potential. Even if ranged would get a blanket 50 % damage, missile- and drawspeed nerf, you would still die to it and your original problem would still remain, which is dying to something you cannot avoid as easily with your build as dying to melees that are in your plain sight. While this may be toning down the negative experiences at your side it would surely come at the severe expense of every ranged player in the game and not a fair one at all for them.

This brings me back to my original advise. Dont get me wrong Kafein. I can understand your hate but ranged inevitably IS in the game and if they would not be able to cause any harm on your side, there would be no point of playing them at all. I am a low-hp, light-armored archer which means that my primary way of attacking can only be achieved by staying stationary for about 1 second or more. You can imagine how much I had to deal with missles in every of my 16 gens as archer. Still, is nerfing ranged really the solution to your problem ? Or may it be just, and there is certainly no intention to insult you hidden in here, your numbing hate that gives you the impression that nerfing ranged would be a suitable punishment for all the suffering they brought upon you, instead of an actual act of balance ?

Ranged will kill people. It is not like I never play on melee alts and stf's and even I find myself yelling "FUCKING RANGED" in ts every now and then. But then I quickly remember what kind of sacrifices they have to make just to be able to use a ranged weapon properly ( well maybe not so much for xbow ). Frankly, if you taste rage on your tongue when you get shot while attacking a castle, which is probably the very circumstance in which ranged is supposed to shine, then I can wholeheartedly recommend to take a break from the game and relax a bit. Making things not too easy for archers and alike is the responsibility of map makers and proper game modes, like Joker pointed out for a bazillion times ( which I highly approve ) but it certainly is not achieved by panic reactions like blanket banning ranged mobility as we have seen it in the past IMO.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #652 on: November 24, 2013, 04:11:15 pm »
+3
Few things..

1. Archers don't get points, and hence scoreboard position (and valour neither) reflecting their real effectiveness. They are better than they look, and a scoring change would reflect them much better.

2. Archers per se is not the main problem, as xynox says, they have to make rather huge sacrifices. Still, it would be wrong to say they UP. 1 arrow does more damage than any swing from almost any 1h weapon. About the same as me with my katana at 6ps I'd say. More for longbows. (This if from tests Tydeus has made) The result is frequent 2-shotting, except against heavy armored targets. (Which we see more and more of..)

Short: They are still powerful, but their numbers doesn't justify a nerf yet.

3. The main ranged problems come from other sources. Archers on horses, crossbows and HX. Xbows are ridiculously easy to use, even at low levels, and HA and HX can play a very low risk game with decent damage.

Worse is, with the ranged horsemen is the ability to troll and delay, and generally sour the mood and empty servers if they are many and/or good enough.

Ranged horsemen are too numerous and powerful as well. Needs a nerf soon so we won't loose too many players to them.

4. Infantry is the bread and butter of this game. If metagame squeezes them out by making playing infantry too random and hopeless, the lame-ass classes will have no targets and the mod will die faster.

That's why ranged numbers (and cav) needs to be kept down.
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Offline Paul

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #653 on: November 24, 2013, 04:14:34 pm »
+12
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged. Maybe with a some kind of IF based thing that allows to shrug off very low non-melee damage if it is not from headshots. That way high str platers will have some compensation for their lost wpf and thus melee ability from the change. Maybe it would be a new role for tin cans, scaring away agi archers like the chickens they are and giving str archers more purpose. It would feel more realistic and I don't really see the need for ranged to be able to bleed platers to death(apart from headshots) like it is neccessary for melee because of the lack of wrestling and ground daggerwork. Other balancers don't agree though.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:19:20 pm by Paul »

Offline Butan

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #654 on: November 24, 2013, 04:24:34 pm »
+1
Armor rating VS bow power is OK, I think.

The damage randomness could be tweaked though.

Offline Osiris

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #655 on: November 24, 2013, 04:29:52 pm »
0
sure its ok for you butan with your ole tank armour :D if i wear 50-55 body armour i get 2 shot by any and every ranged except some HA with the worst bows :D
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Offline Prpavi

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #656 on: November 24, 2013, 05:07:18 pm »
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Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged. Maybe with a some kind of IF based thing that allows to shrug off very low non-melee damage if it is not from headshots. That way high str platers will have some compensation for their lost wpf and thus melee ability from the change. Maybe it would be a new role for tin cans, scaring away agi archers like the chickens they are and giving str archers more purpose. It would feel more realistic and I don't really see the need for ranged to be able to bleed platers to death(apart from headshots) like it is neccessary for melee because of the lack of wrestling and ground daggerwork. Other balancers don't agree though.

I would love to see this implemented and I'd respec from HA to a tincan immidiatley, cost wise it's the same basically.
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Offline Osiris

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #657 on: November 24, 2013, 05:08:26 pm »
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depends what you consider light ranged :P most of these HA run around with hard hitting arrows
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Offline Spurdospera

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #658 on: November 24, 2013, 05:26:29 pm »
0
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged.
What I have noticed that +3plate and +3heavy gauntlets give so much body armor that only ranged that actually does decent damage are xbows and throwers. Archers with bodkins hurt too, but archers with anything else than bodkins don´t really do any damage. HA´s with low PD strugle to even manage to do enough dmg to stun on hit.

But yeah I agree, BUFF PLATE! :D
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Offline Leshma

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #659 on: November 24, 2013, 05:59:22 pm »
+1
But yeah I agree, BUFF PLATE! :D

 :lol:

Plate armor is probably thing I like the least about strat fights. Now I see upkeep in different light.