Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 49408 times)

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Offline Johammeth

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2013, 09:53:28 pm »
+4
Instead of a bunch of cowardly scavengers following a T Rex around, the new accidental teamwork meta will be a pack of velociraptors circling the enemy at blinding speed and pecking away at them until they die.

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Offline FleetFox

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2013, 09:58:17 pm »
0
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Praise be the revolution. Too long Strengh gave TWO boni: melee damage and hitpoints, while Agi had swingspeed stripped, leaving ONE bonus: movement speed. Now that agility has risen to have two boni again, some balance has been restored. The feeling this gives me is like after a big comfortable shit, that satisfied relaxed confort of a job well done.

All hail this day!

Character's of mine needing reset because of this: None.


Win.

Nice pic, but perhaps full respecs should be more looked into :) atleast training lesson price lowered.
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #137 on: November 09, 2013, 10:00:47 pm »
+1
Really? You don't see the issue? As minor as it is, there are people who always min/max and try to create the optimal build in relation with the build trends. This would mean that they get the chance to cherry pick their build. Being forced to dedicate your skills to one build per gen (especially when you're lvl 35+) is good, because then the build trends are more static, meaning the playfield is more even. Metagaming is just tedious, especially stuff like this. I really don't wanna deal with lvl 35 21/24 guys with awlpikes, for example.

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Offline Cosmos_Shielder

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #138 on: November 09, 2013, 10:06:36 pm »
0
First , your red graph is completely pointless. No body would get agility without taking weapon master.
Second thing with your new formula if you have less than 6 weapon master , you are nerfed.
second thing you definetely killed full force build when it wasn't necessary. yet having ironflesh is completely pointless without a masterwork milanese plate.
12 ironflesh change nothing without a good armor cause it barely make you able to one more hit than agi whore.
Powerstrike wasn't even powerfull because if you are full armor with full ironflesh , you don't get any speed bonus, because you don't have any athletics.

Offline Cosmos_Shielder

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #139 on: November 09, 2013, 10:09:13 pm »
+2
You're going to have a lot of weird balance issues now.  What I would have done was just divided the WPP you get at 30 (250), that gives you 111WPF in one category by 18 agi (which is your target balance build).  This way, once you hit 18 WPF, you have the baseline singular WPF.

Now, what about high agi builds?  Lets examine the most extreme case a 3/36 builds.  It would have 500 WPP.  That could be a 111/111 split, or 145 with no WM.  Let's say he gets 1PS, PT or PD and 12 atheletics.  With only enough left for 10WM, sure, he will have just over 200 singular WPF.  But with only 1PS, he will not be effective.  That build would have 189 WPF with the current system, ~20 WPF will not make a big difference.

On the other extreme, at 36/3 or whatever -/3, you will have 55 WPP which is around 41 singular WPF.  With 1WM, they'd then have 61 WPF. 

Now let's look at some more balanced scenarios.

24/15 would get about 101 Singular WPF from agility.

18/21 would get 118 Singular WPF from agility.

15/24: 125

12/27: 130

9/30: 134

You should also take in to account that this would not give players higher than level 30 even more WPF which we have in the current system.
DO NOT FORGET ARMOR! High strenght build are only viable with armor which already cost a lot , and take away wpf from you.
Now full str wont any more wpf...

Offline Dach

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #140 on: November 09, 2013, 10:27:54 pm »
0
Finally!!!! the 36-3 39-3 and worse get screwed.... IT'S ABOUT TIME.

3-36 3-39 etc weren't viable so glad the other end get the same treatment...

Even more happy about this change for Strategus, since this game mode was heavily favouring STR build. (Multiple castle siege without room for maneuver... or stupid random map with hill everywhere that negate 90% of your athletics...  :|
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Offline Pentecost

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #141 on: November 09, 2013, 10:33:22 pm »
+1
Some questions:

1.) Decoupling free hp from strength seems like an easier solution to this whole affair if your primary aim was to balance strength builds with everyone else. Is there a reason you didn't just go with that?

2.) Can you post the old wpf cost formula as well for the sake of comparison?

3.) Are you preemptively tweaking any weapon speeds in the same patch that this goes live? A server that's 30-50% 180+ wpf longsworders or 180+ wpf awlpikers is going to be even more of a plague than a team of archers and throwers is now.

4.) Are you going to adjust the amount of damage you get from wpf? I was under the impression that every 50 wpf past 100 is about equal to 1 power strike in terms of damage, so someone who gets 180-220 effective wpf is going to be getting the equivalent of ~2 PS on top of much faster swings.

5.) What's the problem with offering full respecs, exactly? If you're going to be making sweeping changes that affect the entire game (as opposed to just one playstyle or one weapon class), why would that not be something on the table? If you're going to say "that would set an unhealthy precedent", it most certainly would not be an issue. It's not like game-wide changes on the level of this one happen with any regularity or frequency.

Finally, I just want to say that it makes little sense to penalize people who have evenly split wpfs when you are already greatly increasing the value of having your wpf in one weapon class. There will be little reason for any pure melee to opt for an even split when it will disadvantage you by 80-110 wpf points (ie the current difference between an archer in melee against a melee in melee) compared to someone who has correctly assessed the new meta and adjusted his build accordingly to have tons of WM. It will be only worthwhile for melee/ranged hybrids.

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2013, 10:34:12 pm »
0
Finally!!!! the 36-3 39-3 and worse get screwed.... IT'S ABOUT TIME.

3-36 3-39 etc weren't viable so glad the other end get the same treatment...

Even more happy about this change for Strategus, since this game mode was heavily favouring STR build. (Multiple castle siege without room for maneuver... or stupid random map with hill everywhere that negate 90% of your athletics...  :|

The main reason i planned to switch from 18/24 to 24/21 was because STR builds are that much better in strat. You live longer so you preserve tickets and respawn faster. There's almost always plate armor available as well.
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Offline Malaclypse

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #143 on: November 09, 2013, 10:39:08 pm »
0
Wow, would have been fine with my 18/24 build, my 15/24 build (though it was way too weak for my liking in Strat), and now I'll be fine with my 18/21 build. Bout time.

Also all these dudes saying STR builds are now dead are hilarious. If you've ever picked up a Longsword, Morningstar, Long Bardiche etc.with 1 wpf, you know that the lack of it isn't a huge impediment to dealing damage and killing folk (nor does it effect your swing speed much), even less so if you have 33+ STR/11+ PS.

39/3 will still be able to exist, just dealing a bit less damage and swinging a bit slower, and as Nehvar pointed out pages ago, 33/12, 30/12, 27/12 etc are all very hard hitting Strength builds. I've always operated under the principle that a good build has at least 18 of each attribute, personally, and people won't even be bound to that much investment. If anything, the people going from 33/3 and up to xx/12 are probably going to be more effective.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 11:05:44 pm by Malaclypse »
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Offline chesterotab

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #144 on: November 09, 2013, 10:45:52 pm »
-1
So my 5wm 2h/pole/toplite/cav hybrid is just getting a flat out nerf? hurrah!

Who is really against free respecs for everybody?
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Offline Molly

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #145 on: November 09, 2013, 10:49:12 pm »
+2
I hate to say this but...

...Bjord is correct about the full respec.
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Offline Novamere

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #146 on: November 09, 2013, 10:50:39 pm »
+2
This is the time they should hand out full free respec for maybe a 1 week period and if not used within 1 week it goes away! And you only get to use it once.

Offline Kato

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #147 on: November 09, 2013, 11:16:56 pm »
+1
I am not sold on this change.
I can see all this level 34-35 players going for 27 - 30 agi builds with around 200wpf and superfast weapons and we are in territory when game become broken, a lot more phasing and so on...
And fighting bunch of people like this can be really annoying.
Just image server full of Kinngrims. :D

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #148 on: November 09, 2013, 11:24:10 pm »
0
Some questions:

1.) Decoupling free hp from strength seems like an easier solution to this whole affair if your primary aim was to balance strength builds with everyone else. Is there a reason you didn't just go with that?

2.) Can you post the old wpf cost formula as well for the sake of comparison?

3.) Are you preemptively tweaking any weapon speeds in the same patch that this goes live? A server that's 30-50% 180+ wpf longsworders or 180+ wpf awlpikers is going to be even more of a plague than a team of archers and throwers is now.

4.) Are you going to adjust the amount of damage you get from wpf? I was under the impression that every 50 wpf past 100 is about equal to 1 power strike in terms of damage, so someone who gets 180-220 effective wpf is going to be getting the equivalent of ~2 PS on top of much faster swings.

5.) What's the problem with offering full respecs, exactly? If you're going to be making sweeping changes that affect the entire game (as opposed to just one playstyle or one weapon class), why would that not be something on the table? If you're going to say "that would set an unhealthy precedent", it most certainly would not be an issue. It's not like game-wide changes on the level of this one happen with any regularity or frequency.

Finally, I just want to say that it makes little sense to penalize people who have evenly split wpfs when you are already greatly increasing the value of having your wpf in one weapon class. There will be little reason for any pure melee to opt for an even split when it will disadvantage you by 80-110 wpf points (ie the current difference between an archer in melee against a melee in melee) compared to someone who has correctly assessed the new meta and adjusted his build accordingly to have tons of WM. It will be only worthwhile for melee/ranged hybrids.
"Correctly assessed the new meta and adjusted his build accordingly to have tons of WM." I can't say I agree with that assessment at all, actually.

1. It's not just to address the Str v Agi problem, although that is the focus. HP can be addressed at another time if that's the issue. The main problem is that WM isn't rewarding for melee and free wpf creates undesirable situations. Both of those two things are key.

2. The old(what is currently used) formula is represented in the graph, for specific splits of wpf, just use your STF character.

3. Yes.

4.Not at this time.

5. I'm going to stick with the generic "No to Min/Maxers" reply, here. I'm not sure full respecs are entirely off the table, but they're certainly not desirable. If possible, we'd really like to not do that. You see, balance is a fickle thing. It can be something like a self fulfilling prophecy. Kneejerk reactions will cause players to respec into what they think will be most effective. Thus you end up with reduced variety and an abundance of certain playstyles which will likely be considered "OP" due to popularity, but would otherwise have not been considered so after the first month.

For example, lets say STR currently was twice as effective as it is now. Literally every player would know that str is op and agi is almost entirely worthless. Then, a patch came out which brought us to the current mechanics we have now. Most people say Str is better than agility still, although there is at least some debate over the subject. People would see the massive change and say "wow, str is now entirely worthless, there's literally no reason to get str anymore". From their perspective, that's what it would seem like, objectively though, that simply wouldn't be the case at all.
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #149 on: November 09, 2013, 11:25:35 pm »
+2
I am not sold on this change.
I can see all this level 34-35 players going for 27 - 30 agi builds with around 200wpf and superfast weapons and we are in territory when game become broken, a lot more phasing and so on...
And fighting bunch of people like this can be really annoying.
Just image server full of Kinngrims. :D
Any build is about as good/bad as the players skill is. Even 200 wpf does not help if you´re just plain bad at this game.
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