WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)

[Phew]

Tydeus is there a possibility to get some aggi attributes and their skills reimbursed? because I might have to change some shield or athletic skill to WM to keep my WPF and I don't want to change any of the str skills.

This is a very good point. Some people are 18/24 or similar with no IF, but they have no WM. They should be able to drop some agility, shield, etc to put points into Weapon master. Rusty advocated an 18/21 build with no WM for years, and lots of people emulated it.

Can we just have 6 stat points to refund however we want? 6 str, 6 agi,  3str+3agi, 3agi+6 skills, 12 skills, etc?

That's more equitable. Otherwise, you are just rewarding the full strength 2h (that have dominated crpg for years) by allowing them to respec into the next flavor-of-the-month, while punishing many hybrids and agi characters without WM.

[Tydeus]

Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.

8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94

5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97

[Jarlek]

Btw, with this WPF change, is it time to remove the bonus damage from wpf? Or at least for the really high one? Would stop archers from getting that massive damage boost.

[Torben]

There's an interesting relationship between str builds and agility builds which seems to dictate that the more agility builds you get on a server, the better str builds become (not talking about 21/18 or 18/21 builds). Since hp and damage is tied to str, that means str builds have more opponents they only have to hit a couple of times, if not only once, to kill. Meanwhile, with so many agility builds, there are few builds that can do significant damage to you as well. If you look at group fights, str is pretty much the dominant stat, because movement plays less of a role. Unfortunately, there's not really any reason to believe the opposite is true, although it might be, it's certainly not as significant.

takes max 3 well placed polearm stabs to take down any hulk imo,  and those stabs work in group fights very well...
just my two cents,  you have the statistics so youll know best i guess

[protox2k]

IM SO CONFUSED NOW! Just give free respecs with the update

[Tydeus]

As far as the low str, zero WM issue goes, we're aware of it and considering ways to properly reimburse those characters.

[Matey]

As far as the low str, zero WM issue goes, we're aware of it and considering ways to properly reimburse those characters.

Tell chadz to stop being a baby and just give free respecs to everyone. i cant imagine the current solution being easier to implement than that. I do remember one of his old concerns about free repsecs being people who would get confused at their char being respecced or something... so id say the easy solution is everyone gets a free respec but they have to manually respec... its just free once.

[Bjord]

Then you'd have a few people saving the respecs. Unless you had a limited window during which you could respec, say a few days.

[Torben]

Then you'd have a few people saving the respecs. Unless you had a limited window during which you could respec, say a few days.

who cares?  what difference does it make? are you affected by a guy respeccing now or later?

[Grumbs]

Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.

8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94

5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97

I really don't see the need for this change besides nerfing max str guys and guys that don't put points into WM. What is the problem that you guys felt needed fixing in the 15-27 str/agi area? Agi is already really strong as long as you have some Str for access to gear

[BlindGuy]

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Praise be the revolution. Too long Strengh gave TWO boni: melee damage and hitpoints, while Agi had swingspeed stripped, leaving ONE bonus: movement speed. Now that agility has risen to have two boni again, some balance has been restored. The feeling this gives me is like after a big comfortable shit, that satisfied relaxed confort of a job well done.

All hail this day!

Character's of mine needing reset because of this: None.


Win.

[Grumbs]

Agi increases movement speed and damage already. Both in WPF and in speed bonus. Allows you to wear comparatively more armour compared to str guys for the same speed too

[Bjord]

who cares?  what difference does it make? are you affected by a guy respeccing now or later?

Really? You don't see the issue? As minor as it is, there are people who always min/max and try to create the optimal build in relation with the build trends. This would mean that they get the chance to cherry pick their build. Being forced to dedicate your skills to one build per gen (especially when you're lvl 35+) is good, because then the build trends are more static, meaning the playfield is more even. Metagaming is just tedious, especially stuff like this. I really don't wanna deal with lvl 35 21/24 guys with awlpikes, for example.

[MURDERTRON]

You're going to have a lot of weird balance issues now.  What I would have done was just divided the WPP you get at 30 (250), that gives you 111WPF in one category by 18 agi (which is your target balance build).  This way, once you hit 18 WPF, you have the baseline singular WPF.

Now, what about high agi builds?  Lets examine the most extreme case a 3/36 builds.  It would have 500 WPP.  That could be a 111/111 split, or 145 with no WM.  Let's say he gets 1PS, PT or PD and 12 atheletics.  With only enough left for 10WM, sure, he will have just over 200 singular WPF.  But with only 1PS, he will not be effective.  That build would have 189 WPF with the current system, ~20 WPF will not make a big difference.

On the other extreme, at 36/3 or whatever -/3, you will have 55 WPP which is around 41 singular WPF.  With 1WM, they'd then have 61 WPF. 

Now let's look at some more balanced scenarios.

24/15 would get about 101 Singular WPF from agility.

18/21 would get 118 Singular WPF from agility.

15/24: 125

12/27: 130

9/30: 134

You should also take in to account that this would not give players higher than level 30 even more WPF which we have in the current system.

[SP1N]

The formula looks great, although (and not that I'm complaining being an agi-stacked pike user) the damage outputs for high agility and WM characters are going to be even closer to those with high strength and PS.

Game balance before:

STR------------|--------------------------------AGI

Game balance after:

STR---------------------------------|-----------AGI



As far as the "compensation" goes: full respecs would send the community haywire, but no respecs will send them into a rage. I'd say since wpf is the focal change in the patch, just stick with the wpf reset.