RIP Dedicated throwing

[Cheap_Shot]

Why do people keep using "throwing" in relation to "kiting"? If you have ever been kited by a thrower, then you are god awful and should pack it in and give up.

Also, Paul. How exactly is throwing wpf handled when it comes to PT? Does the PT actually lower wpf by 13 per point?

Edit: wpf - armor % - 13*PT + 25% = adjusted wpf? Is that the formula?

So at zero armor, I am currently working with... 130wpf - 0 - 13*9 = 16.25 wpf.
If the wpf req is lowered to 12 I'll have 27.5 wpf without armor?

If this is the way it is, then why? I know there was some debate going on about PT PD and PS. Im just wondering why melee has such a huge advantage? I know PT and PD raise damage more, but PS can go higher then 10 and get the full benifit of their wpf as well as load up on armor and other skills right? It seems pretty heavily weighted towards melee. There's gotta be another soltion to keep everyone from being ranged other then making melee way cheaper and better then it?

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Because ranged weapons being able to 1 hit is OP but melee weapons being able to 1 hit is not.

Is the jist of it I believe.

[Kenji]

Why do people keep using "throwing" in relation to "kiting"? If you have ever been kited by a thrower, then you are god awful and should pack it in and give up.

Also, Paul. How exactly is throwing wpf handled when it comes to PT? Does the PT actually lower wpf by 13 per point?

Edit: wpf - armor % - 13*PT + 25% = adjusted wpf? Is that the formula?

So at zero armor, I am currently working with... 130wpf - 0 - 13*9 = 16.25 wpf.
If the wpf req is lowered to 12 I'll have 27.5 wpf without armor?

If this is the way it is, then why? I know there was some debate going on about PT PD and PS. Im just wondering why melee has such a huge advantage? I know PT and PD raise damage more, but PS can go higher then 10 and get the full benifit of their wpf as well as load up on armor and other skills right? It seems pretty heavily weighted towards melee. There's gotta be another soltion to keep everyone from being ranged other then making melee way cheaper and better then it?

I thought PT doesn't reduce your wpf, it's just the more skill points you put into PT, you'll require more wpf points into Throwing proficiency before using thrown weapons?

And yes, if you happened to be 'kited' by a thrower, either he quickly runs out of ammo or you're dead/half-dead from taking heavy hits (Unless the thrown weapons are rocks, shurikens, or daggers that most heavy armor absorbs, but still staggers and chips off hp, annoying).

But then in the cases of throwing lances... They could be picked up if missed, or the target dies from 1 shot most of the time.

[Team_Jacob]

Because ranged weapons being able to 1 hit is OP but melee weapons being able to 1 hit is not.

Is the jist of it I believe.

Which is silly because crossbows 1 shot with no skill investment. Loomed crossbows do more damage per shot than loomed throwing lances with 6 PT. Sure you can do more damage with 8+ PT, but YOU CAN'T FUCKING HAVE 8 PT UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE A RETARDED GIMP SPEC BECAUSE YOU HAVE WASTED ALL YOUR SKILLPOINTS TO GET, AT MOST, 2 KILLS PER ROUND.

This next patch will either renew my confidence in the developers or confirm my doubts that they are incompetent at balancing the game: Hello crossbows, they have been OP since day 1, sniper crossbow, arbalest, doesn't matter what you call it, it's OP as fuck. What's that, tincan melee that don't use shields are whinig about archers? Ok, nerf archer damage and make most bows cut. Sure, they could just use a shield, or pick up a crossbow, but that would mess up their pure 2h/polearm melee builds and we can't have that.

[Cheap_Shot]

Even if the wpf requirement stays, I'd be happy if it were just reduced, xbows got balanced, and PS got some kind of limiter. Wont happen, but I think it really should. Melee shouldn't be a game of "Who hits first wins, excuse me while I dispatch of this ranged pest."

[Seawied]

Even if the wpf requirement stays, I'd be happy if it were just reduced, xbows got balanced, and PS got some kind of limiter. Wont happen, but I think it really should. Melee shouldn't be a game of "Who hits first wins, excuse me while I dispatch of this ranged pest."

That makes ENTIRELY too much sense to see in-game.

[Gorath]

You could do exactly the same with melee games if you are going to cite in browser bullshit like that.
That list proves nothing.

Not that I agree with Jacob's method of "argument" ie, pointlesss rudeness. The above is just as pointless.

The point was to troll Jacob.  However you missed Darkfall online (the archery there is actually quite good, even if the game itself is a grindathon piece of shit that makes korean grinders look like "Skip the fun" option games.), Trophy/Bow Hunter (which I played cause sometimes I like to embrace my inner redneck and I bowhunt IRL so I find them amusing every now and then) and Oblivion which had good archery as well for being in a disappointing game (even the melee system wasn't BAD, just not as good as M&B).  Those were the three serious posts in response to his "no good archery games".

Throwing I can't think of any good games off the top of my head but seriously that's going to be hard since throwing is just a sidearm wtf fighting style really anyways.  The problem is that being a sidearm for melee (instead of x-bow like currently) isn't good enough for the "thrower's" who want it to be balanced as a viable dedicated fighting style.  I would cite that this is rediculous because throwing weapons penetrating metal armors is plain silly (except for MAYBE some kind of throwing PICK that might pierce through) other than doing blunt force trauma perhaps, but then the whole "FUCK REALISM!!!!! REALISM chocolate chip cookie!!!! IT'S A GAME!!!!!" rampage starts. 

And it's a valid point, but just as much as saying that even in a game it's just silly and another way of promoting people do anything but melee.  Why not right?  You have archery, xbowery, throwery, and cavalry to choose from so you don't actually have to fight your opponent.  Native WB has already become pretty much a full on FPS with the amount of non-melee players in what's left of it's population, it's only a matter of time before cRPG ends up that way as well I suppose.

It's Gorath, what do you expect?  

I like to be consistant with my anti ranged trololo bias.   

It's the bigger picture here, sure they may annoy you but they certainly arent as powerful as people often thought. I didnt like it when archers were everywhere, in fact it's getting back to that now, but I never suggested that we nerf the shit out of them just because they annoy me.

That's really the main reason they'll always be called on to be nerfed.  Just the way it is.  This is the ONLY multiplayer game we have with good melee combat, yet it turns more and more every day into a standard FPS using medieval "guns".  It's not really ever about them being "OP" but the fact that they are just lame and gay, forcing all melee to play a shielder or just deal with having a billion projectiles you have to dodge with shitty movement controls and slow running speed that you can't block just so you can get to have a melee fight.

Same reason people bitch about crushthrough weapons too.  Removing someone's RMB and ability to block or chamber is flat out annoying as shit.  It's like saying "TROLOLO!  You actually spent time learning to melee?  Dumbass, just use abilities which for the most part are unblockable."

TLDR:  It's not about OP, and all about the "gay" factor.

Which is silly because crossbows 1 shot with no skill investment. Loomed crossbows do more damage per shot than loomed throwing lances with 6 PT.

They don't unless you get a headshot or your target is pretty much nekkid with crap str and no IF.   
All ranged weapons can do this same one shot scenario btw.  Headshot, dead.  Nekkid dude with bad stats, dead.

Because ranged weapons being able to 1 hit is OP but melee weapons being able to 1 hit is not.

Is the jist of it I believe.

Pretty much.  Melee can be blocked and chambered.  Ranged cannot (unless you use a shield which is basically saying all melee has to play shielders and to hell with the skill of manual blocking)

[Team_Jacob]

The point was to troll Jacob.  However you missed Darkfall online (the archery there is actually quite good, even if the game itself is a grindathon piece of shit that makes korean grinders look like "Skip the fun" option games.), Trophy/Bow Hunter (which I played cause sometimes I like to embrace my inner redneck and I bowhunt IRL so I find them amusing every now and then) and Oblivion which had good archery as well for being in a disappointing game (even the melee system wasn't BAD, just not as good as M&B).  Those were the three serious posts in response to his "no good archery games".

You named one multiplayer game (Darkfall), and archery in that game is a laggy bad mess and doesn't really work very well. Try again.

Throwing I can't think of any good games off the top of my head but seriously that's going to be hard since throwing is just a sidearm wtf fighting style really anyways.  The problem is that being a sidearm for melee (instead of x-bow like currently) isn't good enough for the "thrower's" who want it to be balanced as a viable dedicated fighting style.  I would cite that this is rediculous because throwing weapons penetrating metal armors is plain silly (except for MAYBE some kind of throwing PICK that might pierce through) other than doing blunt force trauma perhaps, but then the whole "FUCK REALISM!!!!! REALISM chocolate chip cookie!!!! IT'S A GAME!!!!!" rampage starts. 

Yea, there's no way a javelin thrown from a horse could penetrate plate armor....oh wait. You need to get your GED so you can at least understand basic physics.

That's really the main reason they'll always be called on to be nerfed.  Just the way it is.  This is the ONLY multiplayer game we have with good melee combat, yet it turns more and more every day into a standard FPS using medieval "guns".  It's not really ever about them being "OP" but the fact that they are just lame and gay, forcing all melee to play a shielder or just deal with having a billion projectiles you have to dodge with shitty movement controls and slow running speed that you can't block just so you can get to have a melee fight.

You obviously never played any of the jedi knight series.

They don't unless you get a headshot or your target is pretty much nekkid with crap str and no IF.   
All ranged weapons can do this same one shot scenario btw.  Headshot, dead.  Nekkid dude with bad stats, dead.

So you should be fine with throwing lances getting more ammo since they do less damage than an arbalest. Make up your mind, you either have to say that throwing lances AND arbalest are OP because they can 1 shot, or you have to say that they are BOTH fine.

Pretty much.  Ranged can be blocked and absorbed.  Melee cannot (unless you use a melee weapon which is basically saying all ranged has to play with a melee weapon and be able to manual block just as well as the UBAR 1337 MELEE PLAERZ on top of being able to be a good archer)

Fixed.

Double standards as expected. Ranged forces melee players to get a shield or die. Melee forces ranged to take a melee weapon or die. You don't see all archers bitching that they have to or should take a melee weapon, but melee players will throw shitfits if they are required to "waste" 2-4 points and 1 slot to make them completely immune to ranged attackers. On top of that, they can still use their 2h/polearm when they get within range of the enemy. I swear, back when archery did a crapload of damage and everyone carried a sniper crossbow there was less bitching because everyone also carried a shield. The irony here is that you DO have a shield and you're still complaining like a retarded twelve year old.

I propose that melee damage should be cut in half, swing speeds should be slowed, and Archers can block with their fists indefinitely. Why? Because ranged shouldn't have to deal with melee, it's a nuisance. Screw the fact that they can take a melee weapon, they shouldn't have to, they are archers.

[Gorath]

You named one multiplayer game (Darkfall), and archery in that game is a laggy bad mess and doesn't really work very well. Try again. 

Funny, archery had no lag issues when I played Darkfall during both the beta (EU server and ping) and EU launch (again, EU server and bad ping).  It worked amazing.   

Yea, there's no way a javelin thrown from a horse could penetrate plate armor....oh wait. You need to get your GED so you can at least understand basic physics. 

Ah!  So there we have it.  Throwing should only be viable when done from horseback as a Javazon.  I approve with your idea and will support it to the devs.  Throwing on foot nerfed to uselessness, Javazons viable due to speed bonus.  Wait, that sounds somewhat like it is currently.  Wierd.

You obviously never played any of the jedi knight series. 

I did, extensively in fact.  Never used the guns there either.  If you're commenting about JK series in response to:
Only multiplayer melee game:  Do you see any JK series servers up and running currently with a respectable community?  Yeah, me neither.

Dealing with projectiles you can't dodge:  Did you even play JK as a force user?  Speed boost, faster base movement anyways, double tapped dodging, FUCKING SABER DEFLECTION TO BLOCK RANGED ATTACKS WITH YOUR SWORD, force-shields?  Yeah, WB isn't slug ass slow and lacking all the rest of those....owait

So you should be fine with throwing lances getting more ammo since they do less damage than an arbalest. Make up your mind, you either have to say that throwing lances AND arbalest are OP because they can 1 shot, or you have to say that they are BOTH fine. 

Lances 1-shot to the body.  Nice try avoiding the point and making up your own though.   
I also don't think either are OP at the moment specifically because of the ammo nerf to throwing.  The big difference:  I can LOGICALLY see someone carrying 15 x-bow bolts in a quiver/pouch.  I can't LOGICALLY see someone hiding 7 throwing lances up their ass like a goddamned bag of holding.  Especially when the silliness of sheathing a pike and such, along with making larger weapons higher slots than 1 to prevent having a spamberge, great axe, shield, and great maul retardedness was already fixed.  Multiple throwing lances is just as retarded.  So if you want more ammo, give melee back the ability to carry a 2h duel weapon, anti cav weapon, shield and anti-shield weapon back as well.

Fixed.

Double standards as expected. Ranged forces melee players to get a shield or die. Melee forces ranged to take a melee weapon or die. You don't see all archers bitching that they have to or should take a melee weapon, but melee players will throw shitfits if they are required to "waste" 2-4 points and 1 slot to make them completely immune to ranged attackers. On top of that, they can still use their 2h/polearm when they get within range of the enemy. I swear, back when archery did a crapload of damage and everyone carried a sniper crossbow there was less bitching because everyone also carried a shield. The irony here is that you DO have a shield and you're still complaining like a retarded twelve year old.

I propose that melee damage should be cut in half, swing speeds should be slowed, and Archers can block with their fists indefinitely. Why? Because ranged shouldn't have to deal with melee, it's a nuisance. Screw the fact that they can take a melee weapon, they shouldn't have to, they are archers.

You didn't fix shit, you just spouted bullshit.  Ranged doesn't ever have to even get CLOSE to the melee guy.  That's how they can avoid melee altogether.  It's fucking RANGED ffs.     Kite.  Stand at RANGE on high ground.  Etc.  The only time ranged has to get close to melee is if:
They're stupid and not paying attention
The last alive and don't want to delay
They're stupid and don't understand that they are RANGED

RANGE

For someone that loves it so much you apparently have no fucking idea how it works.

Range:  I stand across the field and snipe people with unblockable attacks unless you specifically carry a shield.  When you approach, I kite and move to another spot where you can't reach me and shoot some more.

Melee:  I have to run across the field and get within arms length of you to attack.  Oh, you get to block my attacks if I DO get that close to you.  Oh and anyone can block with 0 skill-point investment.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Melee:  I have to run across the field and get within arms length of you to attack.  Oh, you get to block my attacks if I DO get that close to you.  Oh and anyone can block with 0 skill-point investment.

This has the poor effect of implying that being able to block is not a skill in itself. 

[Team_Jacob]

Funny, archery had no lag issues when I played Darkfall during both the beta (EU server and ping) and EU launch (again, EU server and bad ping).  It worked amazing.   
Ah!  So there we have it.  Throwing should only be viable when done from horseback as a Javazon.  I approve with your idea and will support it to the devs.  Throwing on foot nerfed to uselessness, Javazons viable due to speed bonus.  Wait, that sounds somewhat like it is currently.  Wierd.I did, extensively in fact.  Never used the guns there either.  If you're commenting about JK series in response to:
Only multiplayer melee game:  Do you see any JK series servers up and running currently with a respectable community?  Yeah, me neither.

Darkfall is all about melee and magic now. Stamina is used for stamina to health or stamina to mana. Back when you played archery was still fairly insignificant compared to magic and melee.

Dealing with projectiles you can't dodge:  Did you even play JK as a force user?  Speed boost, faster base movement anyways, double tapped dodging, FUCKING SABER DEFLECTION TO BLOCK RANGED ATTACKS WITH YOUR SWORD, force-shields?  Yeah, WB isn't slug ass slow and lacking all the rest of those....owait

Sounds like the perfect game for you, please go back to it so you stop bitching about ranged in this game. I guarantee there are still servers out there.

Lances 1-shot to the body.  Nice try avoiding the point and making up your own though.   
I also don't think either are OP at the moment specifically because of the ammo nerf to throwing.  The big difference:  I can LOGICALLY see someone carrying 15 x-bow bolts in a quiver/pouch.  I can't LOGICALLY see someone hiding 7 throwing lances up their ass like a goddamned bag of holding.  Especially when the silliness of sheathing a pike and such, along with making larger weapons higher slots than 1 to prevent having a spamberge, great axe, shield, and great maul retardedness was already fixed.  Multiple throwing lances is just as retarded.  So if you want more ammo, give melee back the ability to carry a 2h duel weapon, anti cav weapon, shield and anti-shield weapon back as well.

No they don't, at PT6-8 there is a very good chance for a tin can to walk away from a throwing lance to the body. Here we go with the real life arguments again, seriously, when it comes to game balance, realism has to go as well. God forbid someone has enough ranged ammo to have a 2:1 K/D. Even if they gave throwers 10 throwing lances per loadout, they wouldn't be able to match the 2h/polearm spamcans without doing a crapload of melee for kills.

You fixed everything, I am just a dumbass.  Melee doesn't ever have to even get in LoS of the ranged guy.  That's how they can avoid ranged altogether.  It's fucking LoS ffs.     take cover.  Stand behind cover.  Etc.  The only time melee has to present a target to range is if:
They're stupid and not paying attention
They don't have a shield
The last alive and don't want to delay
They're stupid and don't understand that there is COVER

MELEE

For someone that loves it so much you apparently have no fucking idea how it works.

Range:  I stand across the field and snipe dumbasses who run out into the open without shields.  When you approach from the front and I can see you a mile away, I kite and move to another spot where you can't reach me and shoot some more.

Melee:  All I have to do is run across the field with a shield or flank and use cover and get within arms length of you to 1 shot you.  Oh, you can try to block my attacks if YOU DO have a melee weapon.  Oh and anyone can block with 0 skill-point investment, but they present no danger at all because they can't swing back, and nobody can block forever.

Fixed again.


Get a shield, learn how to use cover, or both. You know what would be great for your Gorath? Join the ninja. I played with them for quite a while and you get a different perspective on how to counter archers and crossbows when you aren't allowed to use a shield or anything but light armor. You obviously have brain damage or something and can't grasp the concept of LoS or the purpose of the shield that you carry on your back.

[Gorath]

Back when you played archery was still fairly insignificant compared to magic and melee. 

Which is why archery and jumpkiting didn't win the first 5 tournaments held.... owait

No they don't, at PT6-8 there is a very good chance for a tin can to walk away from a throwing lance to the body. Here we go with the real life arguments again, seriously, when it comes to game balance, realism has to go as well.

Then get rid of the melee slots so that we can carry a pike, shield, crush through weapon and dueling weapon again as well.  Or are you saying real life balance is ok for everything but your beloved throwmo style?

Fixed again. More raving lunacy and bullshit

"Every melee MUST be a shielder AND/OR hide the whole fucking round being effectively neutralized.  Duh"  That's basically what you said.

Get a shield, learn how to use cover, or both. You know what would be great for your Gorath? Join the ninja. I played with them for quite a while and you get a different perspective on how to counter archers and crossbows when you aren't allowed to use a shield or anything but light armor. You obviously have brain damage or something and can't grasp the concept of LoS or the purpose of the shield that you carry on your back.

I have a shield, I use cover, I snake, I dodge, I've played non-shielder 2h/polearm/1h'er melee guys.  Often with throwing as a sidearm.  See while you want to turn this into something about me specifically, as if I have an issue with ranged, I am talking about the subject itself.  Other than calling you out for being the biggest pleb to ever pleb all over the forums.  Nevermind the fact that you just ignore the fact that I ABUSED THROWMO PLAYSTYLES CONSTANTLY beforehand.  Even before c-RPG was known to me I abused the my old friendgy nature of "pure" throwing in native because it has always been flat out balls easy and retarded.  I commented about it laughing all the time in VOIP.  "Oh it's ez-mode time.  I don't feel like putting forth effort.  4 stacks of throwing axes/Jarids/Wardarts here I come."  It shouldn't return to that because the nature of pure throwing is just moronic.  Sure you should be allowed to do it, no that doesn't mean it should be viable.  Just possible.

*BTW:  The lame nature of ranged spam is exactly the reason I sucked it up and accepted the necessary evil of the shield.  The taint of "gay" from having a shield stain my melee character's is never lost on me, but with the ranged spam blotting out the sun I deal with it.*

[Team_Jacob]

Which is why archery and jumpkiting didn't win the first 5 tournaments held.... owait

The shitty ones maybe.

Then get rid of the melee slots so that we can carry a pike, shield, crush through weapon and dueling weapon again as well.  Or are you saying real life balance is ok for everything but your beloved throwmo style?
 
"Every melee MUST be a shielder AND/OR hide the whole fucking round being effectively neutralized.  Duh"  That's basically what you said.

For balance reasons, they can't.

Mindless drivel.

*BTW:  The lame nature of melee spam is exactly the reason I sucked it up and accepted the necessary evil of a melee weapon.  The taint of "gay" from having a melee stain my ranged character's is never lost on me, but with the melee spam blotting out the earth I deal with it.*

Fixed for the third time.

[Gorath]

The shitty ones maybe. 

Proof you're a trolling pleb.

For bias reasons, they can't.

Fixed.

or

Everything else needs to be balanced around logic.  EXCEPT MY PERSONAL STYLE OF THROWING.  It's ok for ME to have 7 lances shoved up my ass magically, but everyone else must have realistic slot availability and unsheathable tags on their weapons!  BIAS BIAS DRIVEL DRIVEL

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Proved that I'm a trolling throwmo biased moron for the third time.

Indeed troll, indeed.

Love the whole "Lame nature of melee 'spam' (proof that you suck, though seeing your score in the servers everytime already proved that long ago)" it's somewhat funny seeing as that is the ENTIRE MECHANIC THAT MAKES THIS GAME UNIQUE FROM BEING A BASIC FPS GAME.  And mounts.  Hence "MOUNT AND BLADE: WARBAND" not my old friend and arrow: throw spam

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

I'm sorry Jacob, I really dont feel like having to make my build around your playstyle. dont want to invest 4 points into shield, i need them elsewhere!
that kind of logic annoys me! but gorath already pointed that out