RIP Dedicated throwing

[Paul]

I have a dedicated stone thrower myself (PT 9) and there is a "slight" difference between the rate of fire of throwing stones (4 stacks, 48 shots, upkeep around 0)and firing the crossbow. With my arbalest(18k) I can hardly loose the 12 bolts of the stack I carry during a round while my stone thrower easily can and then pick up some weapon to carry on. I can do decent damage aganst low and medium armored foes while being able to stagger heavies. The accuracy and cadence is very high. Above 10 PT it will get too good. And it's not only about stones. Other weapons will get too good with high end PT and the upcoming throwing buff. Especially with the accuracy increase and the fact that we don't let PT reduce wpf like it is with PD and archery wpf.

And what's it with the personal attacks against devs which seem to become a forum sport? I'm used to it from Tzar since he is special but from other it became a bit too common as well.

[Team_Jacob]

It was decided that 10PD should not be playable when 10PD was the norm, and massively overpowered.
Sorry if that disappoints you, but that's simply how balancing works in every game, there is no philosophy essay about the complex reasoning behind the changes.

So archery was nerfed back when it all did pierce damage, but now that all but the longbow is cut, 10PD is still nerfed. Throwing was nerfed because people were carrying tons of 10PT throwing lances or 10PT rocks. The slot system was introduced, rocks were severely nerfed, and the PT wpf nerf was introduced. It seems to me that you guys have great ideas for how to fix things but instead of choosing 1 of them that would completely fix everything, you choose to do all 3 and severely cripple it.

One additional problem with throwing is that there is no item difficulty based maximum PT bonus. For archery it is (difficulty +4). So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective although they are meant to be a peasant weapon.

Sorry Paul, you normally post intelligent comments and I actually like you, but this comment is just plain retarded. 11 blunt, hell even 15 blunt for 3x heirloomed rocks, isn't going to do a damn thing even with 10PT. The only things that are "lower tier" that might actually hurt with 10 PT are throwing daggers with their 25 cut and war darts. In the latter case you only get 12 ammo, so I don't see the problem. Also, WHAT IN THE GODDAMNED HOLY HELL is wrong with letting "peasant weapons" be useful at high PT. I can take a damn pitchfork, staff, quarterstaff, or dagger with 7+ PS and 1-2 shot people in low armor. With the same weapons I can severely hurt tin cans, WITH A "PEASANT" WEAPON.

What the hell is up with the melee jock hanging? Everything seems to be either catered to melee or melee has double standards. If you don't want people to get 10PT because they can turn the "peasant" rocks into deadly weapons then why can a melee get 8+ PS and turn "peasant" weapons into deadlier weapons? An 8PS "peasant" melee weapon hurts a LOT more than a 10PT rock.

[Team_Jacob]

I have a dedicated stone thrower myself (PT 9) and there is a "slight" difference between the rate of fire of throwing stones (4 stacks, 48 shots, upkeep around 0)and firing the crossbow. With my arbalest(18k) I can hardly loose the 12 bolts of the stack I carry during a round while my stone thrower easily can and then pick up some weapon to carry on. I can do decent damage aganst low and medium armored foes while being able to stagger heavies. The accuracy and cadence is very high. Above 10 PT it will get too good. And it's not only about stones. Other weapons will get too good with high end PT and the upcoming throwing buff. Especially with the accuracy increase and the fact that we don't let PT reduce wpf like it is with PD and archery wpf.

And what's it with the personal attacks against devs which seem to become a forum sport? I'm used to it from Tzar since he is special but from other it became a bit too common as well.

9PT is basically double base damage, so your rocks are doing at most 22-30 damage depending on heirloom level before armor. That is pathetic damage. Not only that, but because you have 9PT you have no melee ability at all, you can't wear armor, and you have severely low athletics. This means that cavalry, archers, crossbows, someone with high athletics, and ANYONE with a shield will simply chase you down and 1 shot you.

[Seawied]

I would love to see someone use rocks, and consistently get a positive KDR. It doesn't happen. You can stun heavys? Ok... thats a bad thing because? At most, you can be a distraction for your team. It would be much easier to just take some wardarts and actually deal some damage to them. Rocks are joke weapons. I'm seriously concerned if you consider them a problem.

[El_Infante]

I would love to see someone use rocks, and consistently get a positive KDR. It doesn't happen. You can stun heavys? Ok... thats a bad thing because? At most, you can be a distraction for your team. It would be much easier to just take some wardarts and actually deal some damage to them. Rocks are joke weapons. I'm seriously concerned if you consider them a problem.

+1

I don't understand the hate against throwers. Just take a look at k/d ratio before/post patch and it's the same map after map. Open plains, cavalry owns. Close maps, 2handers. Did you see a pure thrower on battle servers topping the score? Throwing is innacurate, you're forced to have low athletics and the equipment is expensive to upkeep, and you're forced to throw on low-mid range to hit without atletics to retreat. Lowering ammo (-1) and 10/11wpf points per PT is enough to balance. Do you see throwers post patch? No. Because the devs destroyed them.

Hybrids throwers need balance? Of course. Pure thrower? Maybe not.

[Siiem]

I would love to see someone use rocks, and consistently get a positive KDR. It doesn't happen. You can stun heavys? Ok... thats a bad thing because? At most, you can be a distraction for your team. It would be much easier to just take some wardarts and actually deal some damage to them. Rocks are joke weapons. I'm seriously concerned if you consider them a problem.

I guess you haven't met Pebble Pusher.

[Team_Jacob]

I guess you haven't met Pebble Pusher.

You mean the guy with a crapload of PT that takes 10+ rocks to kill someone in armor and hardly ever gets a positive kdr?

[EponiCo]

I would love to see someone use rocks, and consistently get a positive KDR. It doesn't happen. You can stun heavys? Ok... thats a bad thing because? At most, you can be a distraction for your team. It would be much easier to just take some wardarts and actually deal some damage to them. Rocks are joke weapons. I'm seriously concerned if you consider them a problem.

If you get a positive KDR with joke weapons wouldn't the improved weapons be OP automatically?
Besides, where are those pure sickle or scythe players (and yes, in robe please not plate armor or horse or huscarl shield) or a shortbow?

[Team_Jacob]

If you get a positive KDR with joke weapons wouldn't the improved weapons be OP automatically?
Besides, where are those pure sickle or scythe players (and yes, in robe please not plate armor or horse or huscarl shield) or a shortbow?

Not entirely, throwing daggers for example have 32 ammo. This is enough to kill a lot of peasants with high PT. Throwing spears and throwing lances on the other hand only have enough ammo to kill 1-3 people.

[Seawied]

If you get a positive KDR with joke weapons wouldn't the improved weapons be OP automatically?
Besides, where are those pure sickle or scythe players (and yes, in robe please not plate armor or horse or huscarl shield) or a shortbow?

I think you might be misinterpreting my argument. You don't see any of those weapons you list (well... I do see the sickle wielders) but they are just as effective as rock throwers... which is no very effective at all.

[Dezilagel]

What the hell is up with the melee jock hanging? Everything seems to be either catered to melee or melee has double standards. If you don't want people to get 10PT because they can turn the "peasant" rocks into deadly weapons then why can a melee get 8+ PS and turn "peasant" weapons into deadlier weapons? An 8PS "peasant" melee weapon hurts a LOT more than a 10PT rock.

That is because:

a. It's a melee weapon, to hit someone with a sickle you need to be able to lick their nosehair.

b. Once again, it's a melee weapon, i.e you can actually defend yourself against it. (you know blocking, ever tried it?)

Melee is the central mechanic of this game. There is a reason you see duel tornaments not with archers pelting at eachother, lancers lollancing or throwers kiting. There is a reason why 99% of ppl, regardless of class carry a melee weapon. There is a reason why the majority of top players play melee oriented classes.

That is not to say that other classes then pure melee shouldn't be viable, as for throwing, (which currently is underpowered yes) read the thread, and make valid arguments instead of flaming the majority of the playerbase with stupid posts like these.

(click to show/hide)

Or you are just a troll, in that case gz, you got me with this one

Didn't want to double post, so here goes again:

Also, WHAT IN THE GODDAMNED HOLY HELL is wrong with letting "peasant weapons" be useful at high PT. I can take a damn pitchfork, staff, quarterstaff, or dagger with 7+ PS and 1-2 shot people in low armor. With the same weapons I can severely hurt tin cans, WITH A "PEASANT" WEAPON.

That is because of you walk up and melee a tincan with a pitchfork, you are exposing yourself to a big risk, and you will probably lose eventually in a 1v1 due to glancing (sadly). If you throw stones at him, sure you might not be able to do so much against him, but he can't do a damn thing against you either. And you are free to whip out your pitchfork at any time and kick his ass (since peasant melee weapons are so op).

Plate is the most extreme armor in the game, while stones are the lowest damaging throwing weapon in the game. It's just a really bad matchup. Bring different throwing weapons to deal with different types of opponents, or maybe (god forbid!) a melee weapon to cover your weakness (:hint: steel pick :hint:). If you decide to be a pure thrower who uses only stones, then you are limiting your ability to effectively fight tincans, in which case you can just run away.



 

[Team_Jacob]

That is because:

a. It's a melee weapon, to hit someone with a sickle you need to be able to lick their nosehair.

b. Once again, it's a melee weapon, i.e you can actually defend yourself against it. (you know blocking, ever tried it?)

Melee is the central mechanic of this game. There is a reason you see duel tornaments not with archers pelting at eachother, lancers lollancing or throwers kiting. There is a reason why 99% of ppl, regardless of class carry a melee weapon. There is a reason why the majority of top players play melee oriented classes.

That is not to say that other classes then pure melee shouldn't be viable, as for throwing, (which currently is underpowered yes) read the thread, read my previous post, and make valid arguments instead of flaming the majority of the playerbase with stupid posts like these.

(click to show/hide)

Or you are just a troll, in that case gz, you got me with this one

Wow, your post is oozing with bias and generalizations. The only reason ranged classes pick up melee weapons is because they can or they have to, not because they want to. You think that archer that is wearing cloth and has all of his points in archery wants to melee with the tincan barreling down towards him?

Since we are going to go the moronic route of saying this is supposed to be a melee game because there are no other games like it then I would like to say that this is a ranged game because there are no other games out there that allow you to hurl javelins and shoot realistic arrows that obey physics to an extent. Other than using a huntsman in TF2, I can't think of any off of the top of my head. So, sorry, but if your argument is based on that, (when I say you, I'm talking to everyone, not just Dezilagel) you fail.

On another note, you say melee should be pampered because it has short range? In that case, throwing should receive the same treatment. You aren't going to hit much of anything except a lucky shot from anywhere other than really damn close. If that is your argument, throwing should be pampered way more than archery and crossbows. As it stands, crossbows are currently the developers pet. I don't want to turn this into a crossbow nerf thread, suffice it to say they need to be nerfed in some way. Reasons and solutions can be saved for another thread. I only bring this up because throwing is easily the most handicapped of the 3 ranged options.

Lastly, you say that you can defend melee by blocking with a melee weapon? Guess what? You can block ranged with a shield.....

Comparison of the three ranged options:

Heavy Armor:
Crossbow - Yup
Bow - Nope
Throwing - Nope

Skill Investment:
Crossbow - None needed, but does benefit accuracy and reload speed fairly significantly
Bow - High investment needed, high benefit received
Throwing - High investment needed, wpf benefits are null unless using low tier weapons

Ammo Count:
Crossbow - High
Bow - Higher
Throwing - Laughably low except for rocks and throwing daggers

[Gorath]

Wow, your post is oozing with bias and generalizations.

Pot.  Kettle.  Black.
 

Since we are going to go the moronic route of saying this is supposed to be a melee game because there are no other games like it then I would like to say that this is a ranged game because there are no other games out there that allow you to hurl javelins and shoot realistic arrows that obey physics to an extent.

Archery
http://www.freewebarcade.com/archery-games.php
http://www.gamemew.com/Game_Topic/Archery_Games_5712.html
http://stuffucanuse.com/online_game/bowfighter/bowfighter.html
http://www.scssoft.com/rmth3.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll5cjRxx7Jw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_IV:_Oblivion
http://www.darkfallonline.com/etc

Javelins (throwing)
http://www.funnygames.co.uk/javelin-throwing-games.html
http://www.owensworld.com/games/sports/javelin-throw
http://www.bigmoneyarcade.com/index.php?action=playgame&gameid=153
http://www.funnygames.co.uk/throw-axe.htm
http://awfulgames.com/2010/09/25/online-games/funny/poop/poo-flinging-contest-stinky-bean
etc

Now away with you.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

You could do exactly the same with melee games if you are going to cite in browser bullshit like that.
That list proves nothing.

Not that I agree with Jacob's method of "argument" ie, pointlesss rudeness. The above is just as pointless.

[Templar_Ratigan]

It's Gorath, what do you expect?

I think some of the problems stem from what I myself have heard in ts and in game, usually along the lines of: "what?!!!! That is XXXX but it did so much damage for what it is".

Often people used to focus,( and still do), on their own personal world rather than look at things rationally or objectively, for example, a rock hits you in plate with a lot of pt, yes it might do a lot of damage for what it is, but how well is that player doing and for that matter how well are any of these throwers doing on the server you occupy?

It's the bigger picture here, sure they may annoy you but they certainly arent as powerful as people often thought. I didnt like it when archers were everywhere, in fact it's getting back to that now, but I never suggested that we nerf the shit out of them just because they annoy me.

I guess you haven't met Pebble Pusher.

I know I went through this with Gnjus, but he's such a bad player, getting masterwork stones is an achievement of time, not skill. I dont care that his build is difficult, ive had a similar build, it's just that he's so bad at it and yet gets recognition and praise.  It is funny people seem to like him in game, in reality if you met him verbally, your reaction would be, what a fucking dick, which he in fact...is.