Author Topic: NA2  (Read 7586 times)

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Offline Jarold

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Re: NA2
« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2013, 10:00:51 am »
0
I just recall past experiences with Siege. I have only played a few hours within the past few months, sadly.  :cry:

Offline Phew

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Re: NA2
« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2013, 01:39:01 pm »
+1
I was playing siege earlier, and much to my surprise after populating the server with a few friends the server eventually grew to nearly 30 v 30 at one point.

Yeah, it had the same population as battle for the first time in forever last night. It was loads of fun; defenders would actually win, people were using tactics (the new ballistae are awesome for this), and I didn't notice any major griefing/leeching. The server held up OK performance-wise too.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 06:01:47 pm by Phew »

Offline Draggon

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Re: NA2
« Reply #92 on: August 12, 2013, 05:56:23 pm »
+9
Well being a huge die-hard NA2 fan, I've been trying to put my finger on the problem for awhile.  At least a year, maybe longer.  I've played siege in just about every mod available in this game, and CRPG's version used to be the best, imo.  And I honestly think we can get it back, but there are a few factors that need to be addressed.

One.  Toys.
GK_Siege in Native has stolen a vast majority of former NA2 players.  Every time you go there it's packed with near 100 people.  One of the reasons I believe is that they've done a fantastic job of implementing "toys" that make siege... siege.  Catapults, ballistae, fire arrows, boiling oil, traps, sail-able ships, all kinda neat shit.  Now I'm not saying NA2 should copy GK Native, but I do think more toys equals more fun.

Two.  Maps.
This is has already been touched on alot so I'll say very little here.  However, in addition to the problem with overly huge maps already pointed out, one big factor that's a problem in NA2 is 'not enough' maps.  Doing the same maps over and over again gets tiresome.  Hell I'll do a few crappy maps just to break up the boredom of the same repetitive map spam.  There are alot of good maps that have been submitted in the past that I think need to be brought back.  The problem is that very few people upvote a map, but many will downvote.  And that causes decent maps to be kicked out of rotation that some just want to whine about.  Although I do realize there are definitely 'bad maps' that are exactly that as well.

Three.  Multi.
We all play for fun.  But we also play cRPG because of the ability to earn gold, gear, looms, stuff.  I have tested this and retested this, with several different sets of gear.  And the result is always the same.  Battle will render 40k+ gold a night for me easy.  Mostly due to the fact that gear will only break 'maybe' one item at a time, or none, in most rounds.  Siege on the other hand, the rounds usually last longer, causing more chance for items to break.  I constantly see anywhere from 3 - 5 items break PER ROUND.  And that stacked with less Multi strings = alot less gold.  I'm lucky to make 2k - 5k a night in Siege most times.  And sometimes have actually lost money.
My suggestion to fix this is hopefully simple - although not sure how easy it would be to code.  Instead of penalizing the round's losing team by dropping them to x1 automatically, instead only drop 2 Multis.  So for example, "Badass_Duchebag" has a 4x and loses a round.  He goes from 4x down to 2x.  Or from 5x to 3x.  And so on.  Obviously 3x would still burn down to 1x.
I think this could be a huge help in equalizing the money gains of siege to battle.  As well as make people not want to leave just because <insert map> will result in automatic loss.

Four.  Respawn.
This one I'm still not sure about.  Smaller pops do need smaller timers for defense, but I don't know if that can be done.  I read a suggestion earlier about troop count or tickets.  That 'could' work, but you'd need more for attackers most likely, and smaller pops would result in longer battles.  But probably still doable.
My thoughts are though, if we take care of 1, 2, and 3... 4 will take care of itself because pop will be larger.  However, if the majority of the maps are roughly close in size, the devs would be able to easier average out what respawn timer works best (since you can't make the timer different for each individual map).

Personally I'd love to handle map rotation if no one else wants to take it over for NA2.  I do think that someone who loves and cares about NA2, and plays it, should be overseeing that.  If there's someone qualified who has already volunteered, and are active, I definitely think it's time to get them in there and give 'em the ball.


Long live NA2!

/steps off soapbox

Offline Elindor

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Re: NA2
« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2013, 06:04:29 pm »
+1
Good post Draggon.

As mentioned - I would volunteer to create an alternative rotation for NA2 and have people vote on it.
I don't have TONS of time, but I could act as someone who was speaking up for NA2 to try to revitalize it. 

I play 4 or 5 nights a week for at least an hour or two at a time...and I do about 60% siege and 40% battle right now but if siege was being revitalized and got more numbers back I would probably do more like 70% siege 30% battle.  I do like both :)
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Offline Phew

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Re: NA2
« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2013, 06:07:27 pm »
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Toys.

Maybe the increased population was because of the new ballistae; people were having a blast shooting them, protecting them, "mini-sieging" them, etc. People were laying down spikes to fortify the ballistae, placing siege shields around them; it just created a whole new level of depth to siege.

I still don't even know how to shoot/reload the damn things, but their presence definitely seemed to ratchet up the fun for everyone. I imagine judicious addition of catapults/ladders/battering rams/boiling oil/etc would have a similar effect.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: NA2
« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2013, 06:08:59 pm »
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God damnit, how do you unsubscribe from a thread, I don't care about updated posts :(
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Offline Elindor

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Re: NA2
« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2013, 06:11:30 pm »
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Phew, I agree...although I did not see them last night and they will surely need tweaks as we see how they are used , but I think the idea of siege mechanisms is good.

Balista = good idea
Catapults = works like shit in strat, no way it would work better in siege, better avoid this (also not enough time in round)
Boiling oil = probably would work fine (not sure how this would work mechanically)
Falling logs/rocks = also probably would work fine (crushthrough blunt dmg)
BATTERING RAM = I love this idea, break down doors faster

Some of these would change map balances but when a mapper goes into his map to add these elements he should balance for them as necessary while he is in there. 
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Offline Jarold

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Re: NA2
« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2013, 06:47:07 pm »
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I'm putting that post in the OP Draggon!


Phew, I agree...although I did not see them last night and they will surely need tweaks as we see how they are used , but I think the idea of siege mechanisms is good.

Balista = good idea
Catapults = works like shit in strat, no way it would work better in siege, better avoid this (also not enough time in round)
Boiling oil = probably would work fine (not sure how this would work mechanically)
Falling logs/rocks = also probably would work fine (crushthrough blunt dmg)
BATTERING RAM = I love this idea, break down doors faster

Some of these would change map balances but when a mapper goes into his map to add these elements he should balance for them as necessary while he is in there. 

Yeah catapults would just distract from actually getting into the castle and they don't work well.

Boiling oil is annoying because it kills everyone, teammates and enemies instantly. It would be a horrible troll weapon.

Falling object would be cool but i'm not sure if they can be implemented.

Battering ram would be a cool idea since we already have the animation and model in the game files I believe. It could be slow moving to get to the gate that is opened by the winch. I'm not sure if we can get this but a small log with a metal end that two players can pick up and smash a door down with would be cool. It could make them vulnerable and it requires teamwork.

Offline Elindor

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Re: NA2
« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2013, 07:42:42 pm »
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I agree with all that Jarold.
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Offline Jona

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Re: NA2
« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2013, 08:41:17 pm »
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I always imagined that battering rams would be a great addition. They could work like a siege tower, needed people to push them into place. Then once against a gate, they would require people (ideally 2 people in sync, if at all possible) to hold F to interact with it to pull back the ram, and once it was fully pulled back it would automatically be released and damage the gate. Seems like it could be simple enough to implement, especially if the resources are already in the game's code. The only difficult part would be making it so that 2 or more people have to pull it back in unison, not sure if that can be done at the moment. It would just be silly to have one person be able to operate a battering ram all alone. Granted, one person can move an entire siege tower, so one-man gate destroyers isn't exactly out of the question. I just think it would be cool to have the added teamwork element. Then shielders would also be able to block the operators since they will be stationary right in front of the castle walls, leading to more teamwork once again.

Think of the uruk hai attack on helms deep in the 2nd lotr movie. A mass of shielders defending the all-important battering ram while the defenders threw everything they had at em. Now that would be epic. It would also be cool if defenders could brace the gate from the inside to lessen the damage it took from each blow... but I think that is just asking for too much now.  :wink:

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Offline Phew

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Re: NA2
« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2013, 08:53:57 pm »
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It would also be cool if defenders could brace the gate from the inside to lessen the damage it took from each blow... but I think that is just asking for too much now.  :wink:

It's a fine line between increasing realism with siege engines/etc and turning a PvP game into a PvW(ood) game. If anyone here played Dark Age of Camelot back in the day, sieges in that game were mostly hours of breaking doors. Realistic, but not very fun.

The Ballistae are cool because they are a different way for players to kill each other.

Offline Jona

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Re: NA2
« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2013, 09:42:33 pm »
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It's a fine line between increasing realism with siege engines/etc and turning a PvP game into a PvW(ood) game. If anyone here played Dark Age of Camelot back in the day, sieges in that game were mostly hours of breaking doors. Realistic, but not very fun.

The Ballistae are cool because they are a different way for players to kill each other.

I agree that knocking down gates for 4 mins out of a 7 min round would really suck. Im just trying to think of more ways for a team to act like a team. I want a TvT game, not PvP! Once again that is just my wishful thinking. It is going to be near impossible to get people to work as a true team, but it would be nice to get close.

For lack of a better example, this is the major difference between the battlefield games and the CoD games. In  battlefield everyone on a team is part of a squad working together to achieve a common goal while CoD is just a bunch of lonewolf heroes killing everyone themselves. In battlefield (I am most familiar with bad company 2) you would be able to spawn on your squadmates, and assist them in flanking the enemies, piloting a vehicle, or taking a command center. Even though you never spoke to each other there was this mutual understanding between players. If you were ready to spawn on a teammate and see him hiding in a house behind the enemy, you wouldnt want to rush out and blow his cover... you would play stealthily like him. It would be neat if somehow siege got more objective points for each team to fight over. We used to have the gatehouse and flag. Now we have the ballistae as well. Next if we can get battering rams that would already have doubled the objective points. What could come next without breaking the balance is beyond me.
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Offline Tojo

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Re: NA2
« Reply #102 on: August 12, 2013, 09:45:34 pm »
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lol phew doesnt need to be on the ballista he wrecks enough face on foot. If ya wanna use the ballista pullback the crank (onback), then either use or arm the ballista they do same thing, tight click toaim the ballista left click.to shoot.


they for sure helped with population. Only thing that bothered me were the random people who didnt know how to operate it kept screwing with my aim.

Ps. I got a double kill with a ballista i want to line up some enemies and see howmany it can kill at once.

Offline Jona

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Re: NA2
« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2013, 09:49:40 pm »
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lol phew doesnt need to be on the ballista he wrecks enough face on foot.

haha, I really wanna know his build. best way to get valor is OP shielder* in siege... and I think we can all agree phew is OP.

*Not calling shielders OP... just his annoying build :P
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Offline Phew

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Re: NA2
« Reply #104 on: August 12, 2013, 10:19:30 pm »
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haha, I really wanna know his build. best way to get valor is OP shielder* in siege... and I think we can all agree phew is OP.

*Not calling shielders OP... just his annoying build :P

18/21 w/ 5 power throw. I always like the way both Rusty and Turbo played (despite being totally opposite styles), and I couldn't pick which style I liked more. So I copied Rusty's (previous) build+PT with Turbo's gear.

Anyone that has faced me on the duel server can attest that I suck in any kind of 1v1, but I've probably played more siege than anyone else on NA, so I've learned a lot of siege-specific tricks that mask my suckage. One of them is to avoid you on the battlefield  :)


« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:25:24 pm by Phew »