Perspective on mutliclanning

[Rico]

Hello!

Skip this part if you don't care about introductions and structure.
Reading this will give you insights into my perspective about what a clan is. You will understand why I do not consider myself as a member of any clan, even though I just founded a bannergroup myself. It will tell you why I am using different banners. I will also explain what I consider the dark side about the current private banner slot system. Actually, it is not the system I disagree with, but it is how some people act within it.

Skip this part if you do not care about political correctness.
I do not want to force my opinion upon you, and I am not trying to convince you about anything. Using words like good, bad, better or worse, I do not indicate the truth, but only my personal and current opinion. My intention is not talking bad about anyone.

Start reading here if you are a relax-bear.
All I want to achieve is make you think about what you consider more important:
- Determining all your social contacts within cRPG yourself and freely, being with the people you like whereever you want whenever you want,
or
- picking one and only one group of people among which you probably like some and dislike others, but you avoid teamplay with different people from other groups you might like?

The current private banner slot system was made to prevent people you do not know from leeching your banner. However, what some people made out of it is a personal space you may only enter while you can verify that you do not belong to any other group at the same time. It seems to make sense in Strategus: Someone might spy upon you and tell the enemy about your tactics and weaknesses. However, whenever non-clanmembers are in your TS, it is common sense you do not talk about your secrets. This is why there is no relation between having access to multiple banners (not as a clan's full member, that is!) and spying.

People who gave me their banners and participate in Strategus know that I am Strategus neutral. I play Strat battles for cRPG, not cRPG for Strat.

Still, some groups disallow "multiclanning".

You might be a nice guy and even contribute well for the mutual multiplicator, but you don't only play with us, but also with the enemies. You are not using our banner exclusively, which is violating a clan rule.

In my personal opinion, these people forgot that cRPG is a game. A game in which you can socialize, and banner-sharing helps a lot at getting to know people. And once you like them, you can do teamplay.

The following chat extract displays the different perspectives:
note: I modified some of the stuff I said to elaborate my point more clearly. It is not taken out of context and there are no contradictions about what I (my Steam nick, Melancholy) intended to say to Tore (clan leader Companions). Tore's messages are unmodified. If you are interested, see the raw material below (original chat log).

(click to show/hide)

Tore: hello rico we have decided on a no multiclanning rule
Tore: either join with your main or you will have to leave
Tore: sorry
Melancholy: do you imply i am a member?
Tore: you arent?
Melancholy: i thought i were just a supporter
Tore: okay
Tore: no supporters
Tore: sorry
Melancholy: yeah
Melancholy: people don't want to socialize these days and wall themselves in
Melancholy: either us or the others, but not both
Melancholy: it's sad, but mainly the problem of the ones making these rules
Tore: its a clan not a group of people wearing the same banner
Melancholy: the grey order is a good example for being more sociable
Tore: what do you mean
Melancholy: afk for a second, i will message you again
Tore ist Online.
Melancholy: the way you define clan, the only thing a clan has more than a banner group is that you disallow your members from socializing with others, that's my whole point
Melancholy: so a banner group is better than a clan
Melancholy: you can do teamplay with different people, come to different teamspeaks, get to know a diversity of players from all over the world
Melancholy: while being in a clan, you are restricted to a few
Melancholy: this is why i will never be a clanmember according to this definition
Melancholy: all who build bridges are my friends
Melancholy: these who build walls are my foes
Melancholy: disallowing "multiclanning" or whatever you call it makes you fall into category 2
Melancholy: like HRE and Wolves
Melancholy: the Templars, Grey Order, Bogumili, cutpurses, Perkunas Guard, Pravda, CotgS, Brotherhood
Melancholy: these people are building bridges by allowing you to join as an outsider and have fun with them, a friend status, basically
Melancholy: they integrate you and tolerate you being in other groups, too
Melancholy: basically, they are sociable
Melancholy: if it is your decision to be unsociable, i am gone. i will not give up all my contacts, nice people, friends i have in over 8 banner groups just because of you
Melancholy: you are too few to replace all of them and their diversity
Tore: tldr
Melancholy: you used to be a part of this diversity yourself, but that seems to be over
Melancholy: as i said, your decision
Melancholy: one individual - like me from your perspective - is easy to replace
Tore: you can play with people even if your not in their clan
Melancholy: meaning clan, or banner group?
Tore: companions is a clan
Tore: not a banner group
Melancholy: if that is the case, companions are unsociable
Tore: HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Melancholy: contradicto in adjecto
Melancholy: companions are only your companions if they are your only companions
Melancholy: if you have other friends, get lost
Tore: ok i cant have other friends because im not using their banner
Melancholy: this is the sad part about cRPG. luckily, the majority thinks differently
Tore: dont get that logic
Melancholy: having friends means doing teamplay with them
Melancholy: teamplay works when you are in the same team
Melancholy: for that, you need the banner
Melancholy: you don't have to understand
Melancholy: you don't even have to accept
Tore: whats the point of clans then, why not just have banners?
Melancholy: i covered that before
Tore: if you just play with someone under the same banner, you're not a part of their clan but only using the same banner
Melancholy: a clan is a group of people disallowing their members to be part of others
Melancholy: a banner group allows to socialize in whatever direction you want
Melancholy: these are my definitions
Melancholy: in this sense, a banner group is better than a clan
Melancholy: i told you, you do not have to accept
Melancholy: it's my ideals i am following
Tore: okay have fun
Tore: id rather get to know a small group of people working together with them as a perfect team instead of barely knowing hundres of people from different clans
Tore: most of my friends that play crpg are in my clan
Tore: and i play other games
Melancholy: i do not know people just barely, and of course, i do not know everyone in these clans
Melancholy: i know some people in all the groups who make it worth having the banner
Melancholy: because it is nice to be with them
Melancholy: even if we do not meet in reallife, these people are precious to me

Result (and the entertaining part):

(click to show/hide)

Excluded from ladder, banned from the message board. In other words, Companions are clan.

(click to show/hide)

Original, non-modified chat log:

(click to show/hide)

Tore: hello rico we have decided on a no multiclanning rule
Tore: either join with your main or you will have to leave
Tore: sorry :(
Melancholy: do you imply i am a member?
Tore: you arent?
Melancholy: i thought i were just a supporter
Tore: okay
Tore: no supporters
Tore: sorry
Melancholy: yeah
Melancholy: people don't want to socialize these days and wall themselves in
Melancholy: either us or the others, but not both
Melancholy: it's sad, but mainly the problem of the ones making these rules
Tore: its a clan not a group of people wearing the same banner
Melancholy: the grey order is a clan too, for example
Melancholy: they are less unsociable
Tore: what do you mean
Melancholy: afk for a second, i will message you again
Tore ist Online.
Melancholy: the way you define clan, the only thing a clan has more than a banner group is that you disallow your members from socializing with others, that's my whole point
Melancholy: so a banner group is better than a clan
Melancholy: you can teamplay with different people, come to different teamspeaks, get to know a diversity of players from all over the world
Melancholy: while being in a clan, you are restricted to a few
Melancholy: this is why i will never be a clanmember according to this definition
Melancholy: everyone who builds bridges are my friends
Melancholy: these who build walls are my foes
Melancholy: disallowing "multiclanning" or whatever you call it makes you fall into category 2
Melancholy: like HRE and Wolves
Melancholy: the Templars, Grey Order, Bogumili, cutpurses, Perkunas Guard, Pravda, CotgS, Brotherhood
Melancholy: these people are building bridges by allowing them to join you as an outsider and have fun with them
Melancholy: they integrate you and tolerant you being in other groups, too
Melancholy: basically, they are sociable
Melancholy: if it is your decision to be unsociable, i am gone. i will not give up all my contacts, nice people, friends i have in over 8 banner groups just because of you
Melancholy: you are too few to replace all of them and their diversity
Tore: tldr
Melancholy: you used to be a part of the diversity yourself, but that seems to be over
Melancholy: as i said, your decision
Melancholy: one individual - like me from your perspective - is easy to replace
Tore: you can play with people even if your not in their clan
Melancholy: meaning clan, or banner group?
Tore: companions is a clan
Tore: not a banner group
Melancholy: if that is the case, companions are unsociable
Tore: HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Melancholy: contradicto in adjecto
Melancholy: companions are only your companions if they are your only companions
Melancholy: if you have other friends, get lost
Tore: ok i cant have other friends because im not using their banner
Melancholy: this is the sad part about cRPG. luckily, the majority thinks different
Tore: dont get that logic
Melancholy: having friends means doing teamplay with them
Melancholy: teamplay works when you are in the same team
Melancholy: for that, you need the banner
Melancholy: you don't have to understand
Melancholy: you don't even have to accept
Tore: whats the point of clans then, why not just have banners?
Melancholy: i covered that before
Tore: if you just play with someone under the same banner, you're not a part of their clan but only using the same banner
Melancholy: a clan is a group of people disallowing their members to be part of others
Melancholy: a banner group allows to socialize in whatever direction you want
Melancholy: these are my definitions
Melancholy: in this sense, a banner group is better than a clan
Melancholy: i told you, you do not have to accept
Melancholy: it's my ideals i am following
Tore: okay have fun
Tore ist Offline.
Ihr Status ist auf offline gestellt.
Verbindung zu Steam unterbrochen. Sie nehmen automatisch wieder am Chat teil, sobald die Verbindung wieder hergestellt wurde.
Verbindung wieder hergestellt und erneute Chat-Teilnahme.
Tore ist Online.
Tore: id rather get to know a small group of people working together with them as a perfect team instead of barely knowing hundres of people from different clans
Tore: most of my friends that play crpg are in my clan
Tore: and i play other games
Melancholy: i do not know people barely, and i do not know everyone in these clans
Melancholy: i know some that make it worth having the banner
Melancholy: because it is nice to be with them
Melancholy: even if we do not meet in reallife, these people are precious to me
Tore ist Online.

Thanks for reading, that's all I wanted to say. Please think what you like, but think. Discuss if you feel like it.

Regards and good games,
Panuru

P.S.: If anyone is missing a conclusion, this could be one: After presenting myself on various TS-servers and writing PM's, I found that the majority of player groups turned out to be banner groups, not clans. On average, cRPG people want to socialize instead of isolate.

(Cheers again, Hetman, for not muting me when I was super-drunk in the voice chat with you, and for giving me banner access to GO, which started the whole thing ^_^ .)

[Miwiw]

Be a member of a clan, wear the clan's banner. Wear no other banner. You can still socialize with other people. If you can only socialize while having the same banner and getting x5 with those, you are obviously doing something wrong.

Want me to quote the HRE thread, Rico? Or no, I let Franke, Rogue or Fips decide if they want to share that fun.

No, Fips. Not needed.. just randomly said it. ^^

[Rico]

Be a member of a clan, wear the clan's banner. Wear no other banner.

Boring, conservative, go-by-manual-perspective (just my opinion). I am enjoying this game more when I have diversity. Before my stage of inactivity, I used to be at Grey TS when HRE TS was empty, teamed up with Hetman on EU1, who was the only guy online at that time in TS, and exchanged opinions about the relation between public server games and Strategus. It works without x5.

Want me to quote the HRE thread, Rico? Or no, I let Franke, Rogue or Fips decide if they want to share that fun.

Do so, if you wish.

This thread is not intended to be a potshot at old stories with HRE, it just contains some observations I want to share.

If you consider it necessary and want to turn it into a "look how bad everyone is"-discussion, feel free to do so.

[Miwiw]

What if you choose a warband banner, one of those 30smthing which are not sold to clans? Do you get teamed up with ppl wearing it too or doesnt that work anymore? Cause that'd be alright for me, in a big grey accepted area.

[Fips]

Here we go again...oh man, some people never learn.

If the answer to the question "Can i use your banner?" is "No." how about you just accept it and stop being such a fucking drama queen about it? Gosh.

Go ahead miwiw, i don't care. Although i doubt that anyone will ever read the walls of texts that he kind of pushed me to actually read. I could be Kanzler right now if i hadn't wasted all that time in April.

[Rico]

It is harder to convince a whole group of people to leave the server and change the banner than just getting their banner yourself, even if it is an exclusive one.

I managed once, though.

(click to show/hide)

Imagine a screenshot I don't have anymore showing HRE people using the yellow/black native Wolves banner together with Wolves after the Wolves' banner slot expired.

[Rico]

Here we go again...oh man, some people never learn.

If the answer to the question "Can i use your banner?" is "No." how about you just accept it and stop being such a fucking drama queen about it? Gosh.

Go ahead miwiw, i don't care. Although i doubt that anyone will ever read the walls of texts that he kind of pushed me to actually read. I could be Kanzler right now if i hadn't wasted all that time in April.

I accept you do not share my opinion about this, but I don't see the need to reduce me on a drama queen. This is not about HRE, Companions, or anything like that in particular. It's about the psychology and sociology of an online game, about trends, and ethics. I consider the events between me and HRE finished, and I am not refering to them in a resentful way. For me, it's interesting to discuss about this in a scientific way, it's not about personal stuff or some old stories.

If you want to keep discussing, please abstract from single events to what might be the general case. Else, work on becoming Kanzler and don't let me distract you anymore.

[Fips]

I accept you do not share my opinion about this, but I don't see the need to reduce me on a drama queen. This is not about HRE, Companions, or anything like that in particular. It's about the psychology and sociology of an online game, about trends, and ethics. I consider the events between me and HRE finished, and I am not refering to them in a resentful way. For me, it's interesting to discuss about this in a scientific way, it's not about personal stuff or some old stories.

If you want to keep discussing, please abstract from single events to what might be the general case. Else, work on becoming Kanzler and don't let me distract you anymore.

Take some fucking university classes if you want to talk about that shit in a "scientific" way. This is the cRPG General Discussion where paint-pictures, gifs and QQ rule.



"I accept you do not share my opinion about this"
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[Winterly]

Aren't you the one limiting yourself on this issue? What's stopping you from visiting other's TS and working as a team when you're on the same team? A banner is not be all end all. Sure you might end up balanced on the other team, but you'll also be balanced with OTHER people. All in all, I don't see your point other than wanting access to banners so potential team stacking is possible. Please elaborate, thanks.

[Tore]

Aren't you the one limiting yourself on this issue? What's stopping you from visiting other's TS and working as a team when you're on the same team? A banner is not be all end all. Sure you might end up balanced on the other team, but you'll also be balanced with OTHER people. All in all, I don't see your point other than wanting access to banners so potential team stacking is possible. Please elaborate, thanks.

this

[Rico]

@Fips: As it seems to be impossible for you to exclude personal aversions from this discussion, please find something else to spend your time with. This is my thread, and it is not about who of us has the nicer gifs and images. I do not want to argue on a personal layer. The winner of this will not be the one embarrassing the other in a cooler way, but the one who learned something new. In summary, this is a university-like discussion. You may skip it if you like.

I would appreciate to hear a perspective of someone who is rather new to cRPG and not routine-blinded. Are clans supposed to be groups of reallife and/or ingame friends having fun together and playing a game the way each individual likes to, or do you consider a clan a serious organization, meant to stand there in pride and unified under a mutual goal like performing the best at Strategus?

[Rico]

Aren't you the one limiting yourself on this issue? What's stopping you from visiting other's TS and working as a team when you're on the same team? A banner is not be all end all. Sure you might end up balanced on the other team, but you'll also be balanced with OTHER people. All in all, I don't see your point other than wanting access to banners so potential team stacking is possible. Please elaborate, thanks.

I'd have to change the teamspeak server when I am not in the right team to apply teamwork. If we added a server with a public TS and an automatic switching mechanism according to the autobalance, so that I would always be able to talk to the people I get switched to, be sure I'd spend my cRPG time there.

Alternatively, I could take a break from teamwork when I am in the enemy team and wait to get swapped back. But this destroyes the atmosphere the way I experienced it.

Edit: Good night guys, I am going to sleep. Looking forward to your thoughts I will read tomorrow!

[Blueberry Muffin]

I think someone wants to transfer their irl commitment issues into a game..

[Tibe]

Jesus! That was a fuckton of textwalling and fancy words for something so simple and unimportant like bannerusing.

Sorry to disappoint you but generally people have banners just for the lolz of it. Or to get in the better team, not cause its some personal space for social private clubs.

No offence man, but this thread is stupid. This stuff is way more simpler then you make of it.

[Shemaforash]

play game with people you enjoy playing with, end thread