Author Topic: Sick to my stomach  (Read 6156 times)

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Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2013, 12:34:13 pm »
0
Who the fuck in this thread cares about America? This is not about America man. We never said we supported USA, dont change the subject now. Again one quite usual communist trait is to to talk about America all the time and how EEEEEVIIL it is. Right now, who cares really? ]

These facts and everything about Soviet Unions crimes do not come from West. These come from all the people that lived trough it. Your facts come from hugely in denial warveterans and bribed people. Why do you seriuslly think we despise Soviet Union like we do? If it wouldnt have been so horrible and simply Western propaganda we wouldnt hate it as much. USA and other more distant  countries would, cause they wouldnt know jack about what really goes on. But we would.
Oh man its just example... I mean every country has people who sitting in prisons. I am not sure but i think here in Russia now sitting more people than during Stalins rule. At least if we count ratio of numbers of sitting peaple to numbers of "free". You know i mean...(Just don't know how to say right in english...)

So question is - how many was really innocent people convicted. And how many of them was executed. This is real tragedy for those people and their families. But there was not millions of them i am sure.

Take Baltic countries again: according "Докладная записка НКГБ СССР №2288/М в ЦК ВКП(б), СНК СССР и НКВД СССР об итогах операции по изъятию антисоветского, уголовного и социально опасного элемента в Литве, Латвии и Эстонии" was arrested 14000 men and resettled 25 000 men. You know that before war german abwehr did preparing subversive activities in border states including Estonia, Latvia and Litva. In these countries were lot of anti-soviet organisations that abwehr would like to use when war begins. So soviet governemt decide to arrest most activists and ressetle  members of their families to secure from abwer diversions. In that list including criminals, prostitutes, former officers of "white" army, gendarmes and ethnic germans! Most of these contingent could be used by germans in war against USSR. And german used them as you all know. 19, 20 SS-divisions millitary criminals!
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2013, 12:41:44 pm »
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Shit....now this discussion is running in circles again. Serves us right for trying to convice eachother over the internet. Never works.... I suppose one of us is wrong. Eventually im pretty sure we find out which one.......

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #92 on: February 03, 2013, 12:50:50 pm »
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Shit....now this discussion is running in circles again. Serves us right for trying to convice eachother over the internet. Never works.... I suppose one of us is wrong. Eventually im pretty sure we find out which one.......
Man, i trust documents you know. I don't trust human stories or dramatic books. Stories of people who went through hard times maybe intersting and sad and true, but they never will show whole picture whats happened. Same with books people write books for some reason they can disturb any facts in favor of their opinion, not to mention movies, TV and papers. I don't believe them! But documents in archieves can tell you the truth, pure truth without any politic influence! i wish all thinking people do this!
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Offline Christo

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #93 on: February 03, 2013, 12:59:51 pm »
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! THose "veterans" served in 19 th and 20 th SS divisions, they murdered civilians, burned villages in belorussia, they was brats who killed even their own citizens: jews!

Yeah, because the Russians were angels wearing halos over their heads when they marched to the West.

Right..
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #94 on: February 03, 2013, 01:01:32 pm »
+1
Lol documents in archives can be just as easily manipulated as any other historical source. Who wrote them? What were they for? Were they potentially changed/edited in any way? Were they censored? Not to mention the fact that new documents ect are being discovered constantly in the oddest of places.

'All thinking people' as you put them so nicely would look at all these sources as a whole and try to understand the over all picture that way. Not just pick and choose and believe that just because a document is 'official' or stored in a fancy archive that it makes it true.

Offline Tibe

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #95 on: February 03, 2013, 01:08:40 pm »
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(click to show/hide)

Exactly. In Soviet Unions cases its really people's memuars and stories that count much more than official documents. These regular people didnt really have any reason to lie, unless they feared getting arrested or public mocking incase someone read them.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2013, 01:19:57 pm »
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Lol documents in archives can be just as easily manipulated as any other historical source. Who wrote them? What were they for? Were they potentially changed/edited in any way? Were they censored? Not to mention the fact that new documents ect are being discovered constantly in the oddest of places.

'All thinking people' as you put them so nicely would look at all these sources as a whole and try to understand the over all picture that way. Not just pick and choose and believe that just because a document is 'official' or stored in a fancy archive that it makes it true.
All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre  unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know  all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2013, 02:08:36 pm »
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All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre  unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know  all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.
You have to be a real historian, man. So impressive that you have actually read all those files from the mighty archive you're talking about... I am really impressed. Especially since the Russian government is known for its cooperation with the public when it comes to former official documents, they are really outgoing that way. That is so cool...

 :rolleyes:
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Offline B3RS3RK

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2013, 02:14:20 pm »
+1
That´s a  really interesting thing.Just yesterday I saw a documentary about Stalins Legacy in Russia, especially concerning the neo-fascists there.It seems like threrea re actually a pretty lot of people who would love to return Volgograd to it´s old name forever, not only for a few days a year.And apparently, the soviet thought of Russians as indestructible machines is very popular among the youth.They showed the so called "Stalingrad Fighters", an MMA club in Volgograd.The European MMA-master is trainign there and the other members of the club are almost equally feared.

An Expert asked about thes phenomenon gave a simple, and for me, reassuring explanation: There are and will always be people who are eternally yesterday´s.You cant change or prevent that.But our duty as humans and as people(be it Russians, germans or other nations)is to not let that part of the population grow too much.
Maybe it woud be better for me to find out where you life and kill you when you are satch a Soziopath. You have enough now.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2013, 02:36:00 pm »
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All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre  unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know  all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.

Seriously, I wrote my dissertation based from archival research and my sister is an archivist by profession. In that I used newspapers, census data, personal letters, parliamentary meeting records, company financial records ect all dating from the 1800's. I would have failed my dissertation if I didn't use varying sources. I know just how boring it can be, how frustrating it is when information doesn't match up. But equally it's worth it when you turn up gems of information. As others have laughed at, I doubt you yourself have gone and looked at such records.

Where do you think many of those books with catchy names get the research for their books any how? Much of it is archival. Any historian worth an inch will have done some fairly extensive first hand archival research, particularly if they are writing a book and often they will list their sources in a referenced bibliography, meaning you yourself can go and back check it if you like. I did all that and that was for an undergraduate University dissertation for christ sakes.

Finally, you think NKVD documents are going to be open and plain truthed and 100% correct? It wouldn't surprise me if fuck loads of them had been destroyed previously or if they had strict measures for what they actually recorded. Most Government institutions are very careful about what they record on paper regardless of whether they are private documents or public. Unfortunately for us they aren't always stupid. That is why variety in sources is so important, including books as background research and witness statements as well. Anything can be a source of information in history, and you have to look at them all to try and gain a full picture.

Basic historical research methods lesson over for you.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2013, 03:03:49 pm »
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Seriously, I wrote my dissertation based from archival research and my sister is an archivist by profession. In that I used newspapers, census data, personal letters, parliamentary meeting records, company financial records ect all dating from the 1800's. I would have failed my dissertation if I didn't use varying sources. I know just how boring it can be, how frustrating it is when information doesn't match up. But equally it's worth it when you turn up gems of information. As others have laughed at, I doubt you yourself have gone and looked at such records.

Where do you think many of those books with catchy names get the research for their books any how? Much of it is archival. Any historian worth an inch will have done some fairly extensive first hand archival research, particularly if they are writing a book and often they will list their sources in a referenced bibliography, meaning you yourself can go and back check it if you like. I did all that and that was for an undergraduate University dissertation for christ sakes.

Finally, you think NKVD documents are going to be open and plain truthed and 100% correct? It wouldn't surprise me if fuck loads of them had been destroyed previously or if they had strict measures for what they actually recorded. Most Government institutions are very careful about what they record on paper regardless of whether they are private documents or public. Unfortunately for us they aren't always stupid. That is why variety in sources is so important, including books as background research and witness statements as well. Anything can be a source of information in history, and you have to look at them all to try and gain a full picture.

Basic historical research methods lesson over for you.
Of course they edited every single document, every single note, act and so on. I am sure they erased real numbers and write false ones! Yes they destroyed documents... Common you know history. After Stalin died new government was interested to unveil Stalins crimes and to keep evidences! It was Khruschev(or whatever his surname in english). Yes and all these numbers are known to those who wants to know. These numbers are accepted liberals in Russia. There is  organisation here in russia "Memorial" they managed to search all victims of repressions. They research peaople their fate, their families and so on. To make government pay reparations to every victim. They made rehersals in archieves, documents, lists, asking witness... And you know what? According their data for 1921-1953 was sentenced to execution about 700 000 men, including criminals, terrorists, traitors, spies and others. Yes its big number. But could it be other way in that time? Civil war, ww2? Yes there was disidents but how much of them among all criminals and traitors? Who knows... But defintly NOT MILLIONS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE BY STALIN HIMSELF!
Basic information for those who want to know truth!
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2013, 03:08:37 pm »
+3
Ye gods, i believe i may have gotten more out of this thread than i bargained for :lol:

Offline Leshma

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2013, 03:14:45 pm »
+1
I'm not sure what you expected. You know very well that this is multinational community and there are all kinds of people including communists, neochocolate chip cookies, capitalists etc.

Also this isn't half bad thread at all. These are very sensitive matters we're discussing here and people are doing that in mature manner. Just look at that similar thread started by Panos which is locked now. As long there aren't likes of Panos in here, things are good.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2013, 03:20:57 pm »
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Ahahahah.. it's just lol. I am not communist at all, even if i am russian!  :D
And i don't try to make Stalin innocent! But listen tales about hundred millions of murdered people its really funny! I don't care if it's "western propaganda" legacy of dr. Goebbels, or naiveness, or deliberate slander... but it definitly funny!
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #104 on: February 03, 2013, 03:24:45 pm »
+1
I never said that you're a communist. My first impression of you was that you're american. I know you have been following me, downvoting my every post. Never seen russian doing that...