Sick to my stomach

[Firebrand]

First of all thank you Uther for your intelligence answer. I am glad that you can stay away from personal insultings
even if your opponent has diametrically opposite point of view. We shall stay civilized and never let politic to be reason for insults!

Your opinion about Stalingrad battle inter alia and Soviet-German war in general is very close to position of famous historian Normann Davies. To be honest i didn't read his books, but i did read his bio and many interviews dedicated ww2, Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states and of course Russia. So i have idea about his concept in general.
Thus in his interview published on http://expert.ru/expert/2010/16/bez_prostoi_pobedy/ he shared his thouths about soviet union role in world war two. I have to say that his point sufficiently is objective in this question. For example he talk about big significance of Eastern Front in comparision to Western. Up to 80% all German forces(+ all sattelites, volunteers and others) was concentrated and destroyed in soviet-german front. He speaks about western forces(Britain and US) who had no significant effect on whole ww2! And this is close to thruth in my opinion.

And he touched Stalingrad battle which was first collapse of wehrmact forces in whole war! Germans lost colossal numbers of soldiers, weapons, vehicles, planes. Romania, Italy, and other allies of germany was collapsed and got rid of war actually after that great Battle!
Its in general.
You mentioned NKVD divisions behind army to stop deserters. Well there wasn't NKVD divisions. 10th NKVD division fought in Stalingrad hand to hand with 13 Guard division. According order 227 "No step back" there was made 3-5 penal battalions(200 men each) in each army to control deserters and panic-mongers(btw germans had such units aswell). No, they didn't shoot retreating people with machine guns as western spectator can see in famous "Enemy at  gates" movie. Most of desertes were brought back to their units. Some of them were brought to strafbats(penalty companies), and some part was executed. If you look at NKVD documents unveiled not long ago, you can see clearly nubmers. Actually these numbers published even in wiki you can check it - thus during Stalingrad battle in august-
october 1942 was stoped 140 755 men who left frontline:

arrested - 3900 
executed - 1189
sent to strafbats - 2776
returned to front - 131 094

You can argue about how much were needed these penal squads, i only tell you one thing. France had not such squads,

- France fell in few weaks, france had most strong and well equiped army. But they lost war in few freaking weeks!

Britain forces in France had no such squads and all that they did is flee from enemy.

Order 227 was actual and helpfull step to keep discipline inside army!

[Firebrand]

Part 2:
All in all Norman Davies has objective point of veiw on many aspects of that war while he stays historian. But Norman Davies also politic. At least his politic mind prevails when he is talking about Russia.
Here http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/549338/ we can see his point! Typical brittain narrative about continental

Europe. Brittain never did and never will accept strong state in continental Europe(Russia). All his speaches is reduced to one sentence. No matter what government and political regime  Russia always will stay agressor and threat for Euorope! And all his "facts", "numbers" serve to prove this sentence! I don't blame him. He is brit and don't want strong Russia.

Ok lets back to Stalin and "tens millions" killed innocent people! All "sources" you bring to me is funny. Because if you carefully look at them you can wonder why there is such big difference in numbers? Difference count tens millions: 20, 30, 50, 55, 65, 100? ...?
Yes i think in time such "sources" could rise 100 millions and even above! So where from all those western sources took all those numbers?
Lets look at Norman Davies. He complained in interview that he has no access to archieves to see NKVD documents. Yes those documents were classified untill 2003. 50 years rule - 1952--->2003. If you know i mean. So he took his numbers from somewhere else. Probably Solzhenitsin book. Well its most likely.

Solzhenitsin is very odious figure in history they give him even Nobel Peace Prize for his "revelations". His book "Archipelag GULAG" became Holy Bible for liberals, historians, "unmaskers". We have to look closely to his "creation".
According his books we have more than 66 millions of killed innocent people during Stalins rule! He has no access to archieves so where from he took this number? Here is qoute:
"По подсчетам эмигрировавшего профессора статистики Курганова, это «сравнительно легкое» внутреннее подавление обошлось нам с начала Октябрьской революции и до 1959 года в... 66 (шестьдесят шесть) миллионов человек. Мы, конечно, не ручаемся за его цифру, но не имеем никакой другой официальной"

We certainly do not vouch for his number, but do not have any other official.

According official statistic Russia population was:
 
1926 - 148   mln
1939 - 170.5 mln
1941 - 196.7 mln
1946 - 170.5 mln
1951 - 182.3 mln

Where all those 66+ millions?
All the time Solzhenitsyn demanded to open archieves to get access to statistic. But when documents was unveiled he just lost interest to them. Why? Because statistic breaks his lies! Huge lies.

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”. Ad.olf H.itler

But not all historics believed to his lies. They're sitting at archive documents and made huge work to find out real numbers of repressed people during Stalins rule. They checked and compared shitloads of documents and notes. They search every camp. And then they combined results.
You can check it yourself its not communist historians who falsed history...  Its American scientists who made these researches and published in The American Historical Review:

http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs522/GettyNumbers.pdf

Here is table from this book "Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years:
A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence":

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And i won't speak about how many unguilty\innocent people was repressed\executed. Its different question. But no one serious historian belives in tales of 60 millions anymore. Only politics and brainwashed people take these numbers as truth!

[Uther Pendragon]

I just want to point out that since ~1922 there was no Russia. There was USSR, and you're probably using their population number. Because if so, how otherwise is it possible that in 1951 Russia had 180 million population, and currently there are barely 140 mln? What happened during those 60 years?

Also you say that there were no NKVD divisions behind army lines during battle of stalingrad. Well, I'd argue, but sadly I can't find any more sources on this thing, not even in the internet. It just seems logical to me that already politics-controlled army would have some "motivational" units. And I didn't say Germans didn't had the same units, just that their morale was higher, so they didn't needed to make their soldiers fear commanders more than the enemy, unlike soviets, who had problems with deserters. Lets not forget that 1/4 of 6th army front-line were Hiwi's, as Anthony Beevor estimates.

And don't quote russian quotes and don't send me to russian pages, I don't speak this language 

[Firebrand]

I just want to point out that since ~1922 there was no Russia. There was USSR, and you're probably using their population number. Because if so, how otherwise is it possible that in 1951 Russia had 180 million population, and currently there are barely 140 mln? What happened during those 60 years?

Also you say that there were no NKVD divisions behind army lines during battle of stalingrad. Well, I'd argue, but sadly I can't find any more sources on this thing, not even in the internet. It just seems logical to me that already politics-controlled army would have some "motivational" units. And I didn't say Germans didn't had the same units, just that their morale was higher, so they didn't needed to make their soldiers fear commanders more than the enemy, unlike soviets, who had problems with deserters. Lets not forget that 1/4 of 6th army front-line were Hiwi's, as Anthony Beevor estimates.

And don't quote russian quotes and don't send me to russian pages, I don't speak this language 

Those numbers is from wiki. I meant Soviet Union of course.

German spirit was high in 1941. During Stalingrad battle things changed, and penal battalions was disbanded. Germans vice versa used them(feldgendarmerie) more and more actively. In his dairy dr. Goebbels talk about women squads that should be placed behind german frontline to prevent retreating and stop deserters! You can read memoires of Guy Sajer "The Forgotten Soldier" wehrmacht soldier. He describes  hanged deserters when his division retreated to Germany.
About morale of german soldiers you can judge by soldiers letters. There is a lot published letters of wehrmacht soldiers. They will tell you about "high spirit" in Stalingrad.
After collapse in eastern front in 1942-1943 Germany had to declare Totale Krieg i hope you know what this mean...

I know about hiwis.
Now imagine situation - you have choice to die or to trait your country and go serve to enemy. What you will choose?
3\4 soviet prisoners of war was murdered. Did you read about soviet POW in Stalingrad? Did you know what conditions of life was there for POWs? No? Go find it. And you won't wonder why wehrmacht has so much hiwis. Of course there was opponents of soviet regime, who trait their motherland and renegade to german side. But not all of them!

Note: Except military criminals, most of german POWs have been returned back home to Germany.  That terrible was soviet regime!

And i put links on sources for all who don't believe me. They can check my words.
You don't have to know Russian to understand my point. If you did read Solzhenitsyn you know what i talked about.
And this book http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs522/GettyNumbers.pdf is written in pretty english, so you won't have any problems to read it...

[Molly]

[...]
Note: Except military criminals, most of german POWs have been returned back home to Germany.  That terrible was soviet regime!
[...]

Estimated 3.1 million PoW in soviet camps. About 1.1 million killed... but yea, most were released I guess 

Not saying the Germans were better to their PoWs. They were worse actually. Still, quite a high number since Stalin's regime was as sweet as a fairytale.

[Firebrand]

About 1.1 million killed...

Source please.

[Leshma]

At least there are no records of Russians performing experiments on their POW like most axis countries did.

[Molly]

At least there are no records of Russians performing experiments on their POW like most axis countries did.

Most axis? I know about Germans did it but mainly on the Jews. PoW were mostly there to work in harsh conditions.
Which other country did experiments too? I really dunno... 

[Leshma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

There were other "units".

[Firebrand]

Actually in soviet camp there was not so bad conditions for POWs: nutritional standards was equal to nutritional standards of Red Army during war. Of course percent of deaths was high especially in 1943. When german soldiers died mostly during way to camp. They were depleted, lot of epidemics - Stalingrad pocked was cruel experience. But month to month % of death reduces quickly. Soviet government wasn't interested to kill POWs. They was used to rebuild soviet cities, and most of them returned home before 1953. After Stalin deeth herr Adenauer asked soviet government to release criminals, SS, SD, Gestapo members most POWs was released... Its germans.
All other nations: France, Austria, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Romania, Finnland, Bulgaria, England(!) and others got their "warriors" back home in first few years after war! They was released by Stalin home!

[[ptx]]

Source?
How about the POWs of the local auxiliaries, that fought for germans? The legionnaires?

(click to show/hide)

After they surrendered, they were mass repressed, because a legal trick by soviets had branded them as traitors, rather than POWs.

At least there are no records of Russians performing experiments on their POW like most axis countries did.

Yeah, they didn't need POWs for that. Neither they needed an excuse such as "science" to do that.

[[ptx]]

That is because he was in an actual POW camp, rather than a prisoner gulag. Those, that might eventually leave SU were treated VERY differently from those that wouldn't.

[Barracuda]

Actually in soviet camp there was not so bad conditions for POWs: nutritional standards was equal to nutritional standards of Red Army during war. Of course percent of deaths was high especially in 1943. When german soldiers died mostly during way to camp. They were depleted, lot of epidemics - Stalingrad pocked was cruel experience. But month to month % of death reduces quickly. Soviet government wasn't interested to kill POWs. They was used to rebuild soviet cities, and most of them returned home before 1953. After Stalin deeth herr Adenauer asked soviet government to release criminals, SS, SD, Gestapo members most POWs was released... Its germans.
All other nations: France, Austria, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Romania, Finnland, Bulgaria, England(!) and others got their "warriors" back home in first few years after war! They was released by Stalin home!

Finland didn't get all the pows back after the war. Soviet Union even denied that there were any Finnish pows left. Finland kept asking for those still missing and Soviet Union released some of them 10 years after the war. The pows that got returned were just skin and bones. Those released also reported that other Finns were still in the camps. They were never returned.

[Firebrand]

Hmmm. I have to post here now too. My Grandfather was POW in Siberia for 8 Years.

What he told me was mostly good stuff: They always had enough to eat and were treated really good (WAY better then Russians in German camps). Of course often prisoners died of diseases, but not due the lack of food. Just because many of them were ill and weak already before.

Also one thing he told me especially gave me something to think about (I know some of you may not believe that or whatever, but I have NO DOUBT this is true, because I trust my grandfather):

One day some of the Russian prisoner-guards beated some prisoner brutally, he already was on the ground and they kept beating him (I don´t know the reason). A Russian officer advanced in a jeep (he had seen it from some other spot in the camp) and asked whom of the guard started this, as one of them said he started beating the prisoner the officer immediately took out his pistol and shot him in the head. The officer told them that he won´t tolerate torture or beating of prisoners without any exception and that he will punish every soldier who still does that with death.

Of course, my grandfather may have been "lucky" and there were much worse camps (I don´t even doubt that).

They also had German doctors in that camp who checked most prisoners regularly.

Interesting story of your grandfather. I don't think that he has any reason to tell you lies!
Government was interested to keep prisoners in good conditions. There was lot of reasons to do that. And any violence actions against POW should be punished. I remember some documents where was written rules and responsibility to keep POWs in good conditions!
No reason not to believe such stories!
____________________________________________________________________________________________

What about collaborationists fates after they surrender to Red Army. Well i won't tell lies. I really don't know. All i know is that most of them fled to West and surrender to yanks. Who used them after war in propaganda along with german propaganda\abwehr\SD specialists they were used in cold war! But its other story.

[Christo]

Most axis?

Japanese count as Axis too, don't forget.

They did some nasty research on prisoners.