Author Topic: Sick to my stomach  (Read 8076 times)

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Offline Panos

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2013, 11:59:14 pm »
0
Apparently im wasting my time.
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Offline Umbra

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2013, 01:20:02 am »
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Id like to see the good sides of Stalin, H.itler, Mao etc. but personally i just cant relate with psychopathic/sociopathic mass murderers, but hey, thats just me right?
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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2013, 03:10:40 am »
0
Kafein brings up a good point when he was replying to Panos, and I would strengthen his argument in bringing up the fallacious condition of current and past political justifications for war.

Just war, according to Saint Augustine, is the ability for man to exert force over another in the name of God.  All other things aside, that's a pretty enormous claim, premised on the idea that the Bible is true and our interpretation of it is as well.  Set aside any sort of religious qualms for the sake of argument and let's take a look at the problems.  If we ask ourselves whether just war satisfies Kant's categorical imperative the answer is no.  Kant's categorical imperative asks for too much; that the laws and rules that govern one individual is true for another, universally, and that if one were to repeat this action hitherto forever that it mustn't threaten the survival of our species.  Obvious if I were to murder someone that doesn't satisfy this, even in the form of retribution, which is not Divine (according to theologians).  Therefore if everyone in the world were to participate in war we could not ensure the safety of our species.  But if we say, 'well we must stop these madmen from ruining the world!', I would reply to what ends will this be sufficient?  Has it ever?  In the literal sense wars still happen, the old rule of an eye for eye still applies, and our sons are still sent on behalf of our tribes.  What normally happens in this circumstance is you will get someone who uses 'the most utility for the most people' or something to that effect to justify themselves in war, that the most good for the most people is what we're really after, but like Leshma pointed out, when has that ever actually been the case in war?  When has war ever benefited the soldiers or the poor?  If utilitarianism was truly the only social end, we'd live in an anarcho-socialist system, but that won't happen as long as people remain shortsighted to the overall outcome of government which is to always maintain enough power to intervene in the condition of all vs. all (Bertie Russell gave a wonderful explanation of this in "Power").  Once they understand that then government could exist as only infrastructure to a pacifist world.

I'm not a Christian but I've read the Bible.  Remember all of those miraculous acts of Jesus?  Who did they benefit?  In most cases (the ones I remember), they were for lepers, for the hungry, for the wicked and lost souls who wander the Earth without a helping hand.  The sad fact about socialism, especially in Eastern Europe and Russia, is this: "Socialism" is the synthesis of the highest achievement of all previous historical epochs; from tribal societies it takes barbarism, from antiquity it takes slavery, from feudalism it takes relations of domination, from capitalism it takes exploitation, and from socialism it takes the name (this is sarcasm, see the quotation marks, and thanks Zizek).  So I will conclude that there MAY be just war, there MAY be truth to utilitarianism, but have those highlighted pieces of ideology ever actually served their proposed groups?  I argue not (imperfect reason).  War, thus far, has always been murder.  And for anyone to celebrate the legacy of the USSR is a shame.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2013, 04:35:51 am »
+1
And for anyone to celebrate the legacy of the USA is a shame.

Fixed for you.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2013, 05:02:25 am »
-4
Stalingrad is symbol of GREAT victory of soviet people against chocolate chip cookies! Soviet army broke neck of 6th infantry army, 4th tank army, two romanian armies, 8th italian army! After Stalingrad battle wehrmacht is collapsed. Stalingrad was beginning of the end of chocolate chip cookies!
Gtfo of my city! Its deserve to have heroic name! Let's ppl remember that great battle! Here both my grandfathers died protecting my motherland.

Sick of moans from these baltic my old friend countries, which support chocolate chip cookies, they make SS-parades of SS legioners in their capitals! THose "veterans" served in 19 th and 20 th SS divisions, they murdered civilians, burned villages in belorussia, they was brats who killed even their own citizens: jews!

And those who scream about Stalin, soviet regime just hate Russia not Stalin! Wish u not only sick to ur stomach but pain in your ass aswell!
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2013, 08:47:31 am »
+2
I find it somewhat difficult to rationalise the renaming of a city, even for a few days, to something which reflects a psychopathic murderer. I don't think any reasoning on any level should make that seem sensible. There's 0 need for it anyway. Changing the name back to Stalingrad, especially for a few days, makes it seem like your celebrating the man behind the name, regardless of what the official line for the celebration is.

I obviously can't deny that under Stalin things may have gotten better on a level for some Russian citizens. The same with einstein. einstein helped turn around the country in a time of depression. But equally they both fucked things up for millions of other citizens in the process and murdered millions on top of that as well as suppressed any form of opposition that may have cropped up against them.

They voted for him cuz he was promising work and food. Most people at that time when albert rose to power didn't even take him serious. He was a man shouting a lot, showing off on parades but he promised work and food. And he kept his promise. That's where the support came from at the early beginnings before the war even started.
Most people were still okay with the Poland thing but people already became sceptic a that point.
You all seem to forget though that at this point albert already had a whole state system under his control. You couldn't talk, drink, eat or shit w/o the fear that your neighbour, co-worker or even distant relative won't rat you out to the police or Gestapo. Everyone was afraid cuz, although nobody talked about it, everyone knew what happens to people not "supporting" the system.
alberts leadership wasn't supported by agreement but by fear. Same during the whole war really. Saying "No" to the recruitment officer wasn't an option. Instead of being shot on the battlefield, you would had been shot right at the spot your standing.
You can easily assume that way more than 50% of the German population didn't support albert during the years of war. Only the hard-liner were Näzis, the common guy on the street was just trying to stay alive somehow, trying to stay hidden in the masses.
And about the Holocaust? Well, nobody really knows how much the common folks knew about what happened to the Jews. My personal guess is that most knew about them being carried of to death. I doubt though that they actually knew how it was done...

Yeah einstein's rise to power is a good example of how a violent, vocal minority can achieve control over a more passive majority. Particularly when you have the power of the Gestapo behind you and a team of thugs to enforce your law regardless of how undemocratically it was passed. einstein was charismatic and a good speaker and so the minority that did follow him were fervent in their support. Any normal opposition just couldn't compare to that sort of fanatacism. On top of that opposition was simply threatened and stamped out early on. Meaning that eventually people just had to put their heads down and accept it. It was either that or be ratted out and make a swift disappearance.

My guess is also that many knew that something bad was happening to them. But then there was very little any one could do under einstein's control.

Offline Tibe

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2013, 11:47:04 am »
-2
Edit:
Not true. Who the hell teaches you those things.
At the end of WW1 everyone was disappointed but they were glad it was over.
There was no hate towards the French or anyone else really. They were glad the war was over and they were trying to get their lifes back.
albert didn't take it that lightly and he found support under former soldiers who came home to be left by their wife, no job and no perspective. The state forgot about its soldiers and made the the "albert phenomenon" possible.

Dont be a jackass about it. Its very much debatable, again something we were tought. There really wasnt ONE 100% correct awnser to these things, there were multible.
Calling your own oppinion correct and others here wrong while acting all high and mighty just shows your own ignorance really. I dunno who the hell teached you this.

Offline Panos

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2013, 11:56:03 am »
0
Dont be a jackass about it. Its very much debatable, again something we were tought. There really wasnt ONE 100% correct awnser to these things, there were multible.
Calling your own oppinion correct and others here wrong while acting all high and mighty just shows your own ignorance really. I dunno who the hell teached you this.

Peasant, mind your manners when you speak to high lord Molly.
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2013, 11:57:28 am »
0
Lets end this, please.

Offline Molly

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2013, 01:25:33 pm »
0
Dont be a jackass about it. Its very much debatable, again something we were tought. There really wasnt ONE 100% correct awnser to these things, there were multible.
Calling your own oppinion correct and others here wrong while acting all high and mighty just shows your own ignorance really. I dunno who the hell teached you this.
I am talking about the majority of the population which was just happy to get out of it somewhat alive.

A small minority wasn't happy. There you are correct, as I mentioned in my post. That you don't differ between majority and minority of a whole population is a flawed view of things and therefore not correct.

Deal with it.

Besides, it's a very deeply researched matter on how and what happened after WW1, simply because it led directly to WW2. So there actually is a correct answer. Saying "Germans", as in "All of them", were filled with hate is simply wrong.

Edit: And to point this out so there isn't a misunderstanding: I singled out that ONE statement of yours which just wasn't correct. I agree on the rest. And if your history teacher actually told you that ALL Germans hated the rest of Europe, he/she doesn't now much about the history of my country. Though you're partly to blame for actually believing it. There never is "All of them" in history.

Peasant, mind your manners when you speak to high lord Molly.
Were you born as the annoying prick you displaying yourself here, after demanding people to be serious, or is it some illness you're developing lately? Do tell me cuz I care...
How am I supposed to take you serious if you simple can't be? Or you're just butthurt cuz I am holding up a mirror?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 01:32:58 pm by benkei »
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2013, 01:36:16 pm »
0
(click to show/hide)
I fully expected this specimen to reveal itself here.

The disturbing part is that the number of people like this is actually growing rapidly in the east. Is that part of a greater pattern?

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2013, 04:11:06 pm »
+5
Can't expect Russians not to be proud of their "Great Patriotic War". I understand them more than, say, Americans and their ridiculous propaganda of WW2. "Greatest Generation", leaders of the free world bullshit, to this day the vast majority of Americans are totally convinced they are the heroes of WW2, despite losing 400k throughout the entire war and only 1.7k civilians, or 0.32 % of their total population. Compared to USSR, 23 million casualties, more than half civilians, for 13.8 % of their total population. Is the Red Army and Stalin worship also propaganda? Of course it is, a lot of it. Red Army commited horrible attrocities on civilians as well, not just on German civilians but also all the small ethnic groups bordering Russia that they had always dominated and tried to absorb, like the baltic countries, but people have a tendency to brush it off as "just revenge" or something.
And Firebrand, as brainwashed as he seems to be, has a point. Some people point at Stalingrad as the begining of the end for the western theater of WW2 (I'd say Kursk was really the final blow). The Soviets and the Germans both turned that campaign into a vehicle of propaganda symbolizing the entire war. Renaming the city to Stalingrad a few days a year I see as more of a testament to the Soviet people who died fighting there and in the war as a whole, not so much Stalin himself. Some people like Firebrand don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between the two though...

edit: I also understand the feeling of those small ethnicities surrounding Russia. Especially post WW2, the Soviets did everything possible to erase their language, their history, their identity, flooded them with Russian immigrants in what I like to call Chinese style colonization. You can see how some present day Russians (i.e Firebrand) paint anything that has to do with these "breakaway" former Soviet republics as filled with evil chocolate chip cookie worshippers who just hate Russians. Yeah, there are huge ethnic tensions between the artificially implanted Russian minorities and the "natives", but it's understandable why...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 04:17:43 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2013, 04:37:14 pm »
0
Im pretty sure Firebrand is just trolling. Or his just seriuslly overlistened those funny russian state radio propagandachannels.

But yea, thats the usual oppinion they try to give us. But also Firebrand, you forget how the Red army stormed around the Baltic, basically raping women, burning houses, stealing everything, deporting innocent people to Siberia and murdering those that resisted. Red Army did significatly more damage to the Baltics than chocolate chip cookie Germany ever did. And you are suprised why some of them joined the side that threated them less horribly? Frankly I dont get this praising of communism. Soviet Union threated their own like shit. Threw their brave "heroistic" red army soldiers in a ditch in piles, shot their own civilians and pulled lots of other crap. No other country was as disrespectful thowards their own in WW2 as Soviet Union was.

Offline Logen

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2013, 04:40:53 pm »
0
you forget how the Red army stormed around the Baltic, basically raping women, burning houses, stealing everything, deporting innocent people to Siberia and murdering those that resisted.
:lol:
and also, propaganda in russia has been anti-soviet for some time now. Like, since USSR ceased to exist.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Sick to my stomach
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2013, 04:54:48 pm »
0
Can't expect Russians not to be proud of their "Great Patriotic War". I understand them more than, say, Americans and their ridiculous propaganda of WW2. "Greatest Generation", leaders of the free world bullshit, to this day the vast majority of Americans are totally convinced they are the heroes of WW2, despite losing 400k throughout the entire war and only 1.7k civilians, or 0.32 % of their total population. Compared to USSR, 23 million casualties, more than half civilians, for 13.8 % of their total population. Is the Red Army and Stalin worship also propaganda? Of course it is, a lot of it. Red Army commited horrible attrocities on civilians as well, not just on German civilians but also all the small ethnic groups bordering Russia that they had always dominated and tried to absorb, like the baltic countries, but people have a tendency to brush it off as "just revenge" or something.
And Firebrand, as brainwashed as he seems to be, has a point. Some people point at Stalingrad as the begining of the end for the western theater of WW2 (I'd say Kursk was really the final blow). The Soviets and the Germans both turned that campaign into a vehicle of propaganda symbolizing the entire war. Renaming the city to Stalingrad a few days a year I see as more of a testament to the Soviet people who died fighting there and in the war as a whole, not so much Stalin himself. Some people like Firebrand don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between the two though...

edit: I also understand the feeling of those small ethnicities surrounding Russia. Especially post WW2, the Soviets did everything possible to erase their language, their history, their identity, flooded them with Russian immigrants in what I like to call Chinese style colonization. You can see how some present day Russians (i.e Firebrand) paint anything that has to do with these "breakaway" former Soviet republics as filled with evil chocolate chip cookie worshippers who just hate Russians. Yeah, there are huge ethnic tensions between the artificially implanted Russian minorities and the "natives", but it's understandable why...

Good post.