Fix archer-weight

[Jarlek]

I'm fine with archery. These noobs just gotta go 24/15 and get 8ps and 8pd with a 5 wm and boom. I can crush people in melee no problem then countinue to shoot. Stop crying about nerfs and find new playing styles. I'm quite happy with nerfs because it gets rid of the quitter poser archers that just choose archery because it's the "OP" class.

I disagree. 18/18 with 6 PS, PD, Athl, WM and 5 IF is probably better for the crap archers. You can even get melee wpf.

There is nothing stopping archers from taking PS and a decent melee weapon. I do it, Adal does it. Fuck, I even run around in armour for the most part.

Archer used to be the easiest class ever when you could just kite to infinity. Glad that it's now more challenging in that you actually have to deal with melee when they get near. Fuck the noobs who only went archer cause it was OP.

Oh, to those that say "you can't use armour as archer", "you HAVE to have 2 quivers as archer", and "hybrid archers are useless":

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Get Good.

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[Joker86]

Joker's huge wall of nearly incoherent and jumbled text implies that archers are allowed to make more mistakes than infantry, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Archers are the most targeted and vulnerable class in the game, and a single opposing archer can disrupt an entire team of archers.

How that?

Not to mention cavalry, especially heavy, who make the bulk of their kills in the form of speared archers.

Cavalry is as much after archers as it is after infantry. Usually they ride in circles from the centre of the battlefield, where infantry is, to the edges, where archers are, and back and forth and so on. And it's not like that infantry would need less awareness than archers...

Archers generally have less armor, less iron flesh, and less powerstrike, meaning almost any mistake will result in death or near death.

This might be, but the chances for mistakes are lower than for infantry, as everything archers have to deal with, infantry has to deal with at least to the same extend, if not, more.

Archers have to stand still when they are releasing arrows; so any cavalry can charge an archer, whose only choice is to attempt to make a shot and either get lanced in the face or hit them and get bumped for half their HP

What are the infantry's choices? They have to move, so they can't take an advantageous position between rocks or on a hill or in ruins, where they are rather safe from cavalry. Archers can.

Also, archers can't just "attack all targets", the distance of the enemy, map terrain, and composition of the enemy team all have huge effects on the effectiveness of an archer. Archers are not some kind of godly race with eagle eyes and headshot accuracy.

I meant that in theory. But on many maps which are not open plains, my statement is still true. You still get my point that the choice of targets is uncomparably bigger than for infantry.

Lastly, how is missing a shot not detrimental to an archer? He has a limited amount of bolts/arrows, and according to joker, since the archer is so versatile, we're assuming the archer in question is one with a 1 or 2 slot weapon, which makes bolts/arrows even scarcer.

Although I did NOT assume that the archer has a good melee weapon, because I am no friend of the melee-archer-philosophy, I'd like to ask you if you want to compare lost arrows and missing chances to attack somebody/being forced to pick up ammo again to an axe to the face? Infantry can't pick up their hit points from the ground again, if THEY made a mistake with their fighting style.

And there are really many melee-monsters out there in cRPG. I doubt there are many arrow-dodgig-monsters, which dodge arrows that deadly or block them with their shield that lethally, that the archer instantly loses some hit points when he fails...

[Rumblood]

Actually not, because if there is more than a certain number or cav, they start to block each other. And blocked cavalry = stationary = easy target/easier to reach on foot = dead.

That only happens in a game with nub cavalry. Veteran cavalry congo line their prey. This mod is far advanced past the point where it has a bunch of nubs. In fact, we wouldn't even be having this nerf archer conversation if it were. You would have a bunch of archers who couldn't hit the broadside of a cataphract if it were standing still. What we have instead is a large number of archers who have played the class for 2 years or more and are very good at what they do and have invested a lot of time into acquiring the equipment to optimize their abilities. So instead of the occasional archer standing out amongst his peers, they ALL stand out because they've been doing it for so long. There are very few new archers and they don't stay archer for long because it is too frustrating for them. It is easier for them to stack armor and IF and get some kills as melee, which thins out the skilled melee pool.
If you had to go up against the top 10 duelers every single map, people would be crying for nerf against melee. But since the pool overall is weak, it seems okay. Archery? You do go up against the top 10 archers every map because that is who is playing the class. 

[Don_Montega]

Reading this topic made me sad.

Too much rage,
still the problem is not the "Op-Class"-omg-Kiting-Archer.
Its solemnly the equipment(skill based composition of teams.

I really enjoy grouping up with other "range-my old friends" and protect
 them with my trusty shield, when my bolt was fired.

But i can hardly stand how a team composed of pure melee people is fun.
Just spoils the tactics and skills if you see them swinging with hell-knows-what WPF.

I can't even react after blocking a blow.
Neither can i outmaneuver most of them
since my equip is so heavy (xbow+bolts+shield, armor just weighs 9 (all items added up),
nor give em a little shielded rump so i can stab an opening.

A full plated knight is quicker as me with athletics 5 and said items!
That good Sirs is wrong!
He strikes swift as hell,
has high survivability,
yet no versatility.

N me as Hybrid having a hard,
but very rewarding time.
You wouldn't understand how satisfying
it is to stab said plated knight in the face
or to shoot the agi-sissy.

The People make the game,
and i think the most are playing a cardboard-cut-out,
your fun 'tis to miss.
But i'll watch and wait,
'till i seal yer fate,
by bolt or sword!

[Penguin]

That only happens in a game with nub cavalry. Veteran cavalry congo line their prey. This mod is far advanced past the point where it has a bunch of nubs. In fact, we wouldn't even be having this nerf archer conversation if it were. You would have a bunch of archers who couldn't hit the broadside of a cataphract if it were standing still. What we have instead is a large number of archers who have played the class for 2 years or more and are very good at what they do and have invested a lot of time into acquiring the equipment to optimize their abilities. So instead of the occasional archer standing out amongst his peers, they ALL stand out because they've been doing it for so long. There are very few new archers and they don't stay archer for long because it is too frustrating for them. It is easier for them to stack armor and IF and get some kills as melee, which thins out the skilled melee pool.
If you had to go up against the top 10 duelers every single map, people would be crying for nerf against melee. But since the pool overall is weak, it seems okay. Archery? You do go up against the top 10 archers every map because that is who is playing the class. 

In the end, because Joker's responses really make no sense to me, the only thing I think is really broken is the team balance. There should not be an 8 - 2 archer balance or 2 - 10 cav balance for that matter. Banner balance is fine, but I believe team balance should be first priority for the best possible games.

[Malaclypse]

the only thing I think is really broken is the team balance.

[XyNox]

It is absolutely fucking unbelievable how often you can read the exact same bullshit thread after thread, day after day.

Can you people after years of playing not just realise already that not archery is the problem but its rather that you simply SUCK DONKEY DICK at the game ? Its really simple as that. How many more years and nerfs does it take to make all the lobbying dumbfucks in here realise that ?

[oprah_winfrey]

It is absolutely fucking unbelievable how often you can read the exact same bullshit thread after thread, day after day.

Can you people after years of playing not just realise already that not archery is the problem but its rather that you simply SUCK DONKEY DICK at the game ? Its really simple as that. How many more years and nerfs does it take to make all the lobbying dumbfucks in here realise that ?

How is it that after every nerf to archery, archers complain that their class is completely useless and then a week later nothing is said until it is nerfed again?

[XyNox]

How is it that after every nerf to archery, archers complain that their class is completely useless and then a week later nothing is said until it is nerfed again?

Archery gets nerfed everytime melees cry. And there isnt really a time where melees dont cry. The week of silence in between is probably due to melees laughing their asses of when they realise that stupid devs actually fell for their lobbying again.

[Aderyn]

How is it that after every nerf to archery, archers complain that their class is completely useless and then a week later nothing is said until it is nerfed again?

we're complaining still aren't we? Not a week ago since it happened.

What XyNox said. If even I as a 120 pinger can dodge arrows and catch up to archers with my pikeman presupernerf. how come 60- pingers can't?

[oprah_winfrey]

we're complaining still aren't we? Not a week ago since it happened.

What XyNox said. If even I as a 120 pinger can dodge arrows and catch up to archers with my pikeman presupernerf. how come 60- pingers can't?

If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?

[Don_Montega]

If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?

Allthough i personally hate archers for ruining most of my days
(and loving them for being good targets for me bolts.).

I do have to say, that shooting across the map takes some sort of skill.
You have to calculate movement, speed, distance, your own weapon
and need high wpf to be accurate.

Same tis with melee,
with one exception,
you can spam swings and still do good.

With ranged weapons you cannot,
since your ammo is limited.

Yesterday i looted a Masterworked Arbalest
and Masterworked steel arrows,
hit a "knight" in the upper body.
He didn't drop dead,
i just thoguht "wtf?! in 12 meters,
a shot to the lung, not deadly?!"
Dropped the damn thing and went to bed.

Ranged as it is,
is no real fun, even as hybrid.

[Aderyn]

If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?

clearly everyone is.

[XyNox]

If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?

Read his post again, then redecide whether you understood it.

[Tzar]

It´s really a shame the devs forced archers to have awareness an use teamwork with the inf.

We get it, you miss being able to kite around like a solo legolass rambo hero....

Im pretty sure if the devs wanted that. They wouldn't have added the extra weight..