This double hit business

[Kafein]

It's a shame I didn't use training lessons to make that 42/3 build.

Do. It.

I mean not very long ago I roleplayed a mentally challenged knight in nearly max armor and a 30/9 build with my STF and I scored first of my team in siege about half the time. Not as much in battle as spam just won't work against archers and cav. But in siege, good lord.

[Teeth]

Is it just me or this community's feedback consists of demanding while having zero respect towards developers for they are doing?

The demanding and hate has especially become noticeable after the recent investment plan worked out. I guess people think that, by investing money into the next game, they also get to dictate development of cRPG and judge behavior or developers. This is hardly a way of "A gentleman and a Scholar".

Well, I am glad I am not on the elitist bandwagon that will inevitably ruin this mod by trying to judge every change only trough "best crpg players" perspective. I am also glad I got to see how mod development worked in oldschool days where every new feature for your favorite game was greeted with a smile(out of respect, because without developers, you could not change anything yourself), and where people actually tried something out for a couple of day instead of instantly writing off what they THINK is bad.

Now if cmp would try this a couple of days he would come to the conclusion it's bad, sadly he barely plays the game. Which means we have to try it for him. If he doesn't take the criticism seriously of an entire community except you and Sagar, then the dev's attitude is a lot more worrying than the community's. Zero respect for the community.

[Dalhi]

People will appreciate improvments in combat system, that's for sure. Unfortunatly sharing hits is not an improvement and I don't see how one could even consider  this as a step forward.

[Kafein]

Is it just me or this community's feedback consists of demanding while having zero respect towards developers for they are doing?

The demanding and hate has especially become noticeable after the recent investment plan worked out. I guess people think that, by investing money into the next game, they also get to dictate development of cRPG and judge behavior or developers. This is hardly a way of "A gentleman and a Scholar".

Well, I am glad I am not on the elitist bandwagon that will inevitably ruin this mod by trying to judge every change only trough "best crpg players" perspective. I am also glad I got to see how mod development worked in oldschool days where every new feature for your favorite game was greeted with a smile(out of respect, because without developers, you could not change anything yourself), and where people actually tried something out for a couple of day instead of instantly writing off what they THINK is bad.

But of course, this community is horrible. We criticize the dev team for everything immediately without discriminating. I mean everytime they try to add armors we create 5 threads saying those armors don't fit in the time period of cRPG. We also said "no it's crap" back when Ozin literally created rageball from scratch and each time Paul improved it. Same thing with DTV or even Stronghold and adding CtF. For cRPG players, all changes are bad. That's what you are saying ? What you are implying is that we just don't try to analyse and project what the effects of whatever change happened are going to be ? I mean it's very clear we are disgrateful of every single thing the dev team has done.


It's not like that and you know it pretty well. The oldmy old friends are the ones that are the most vocal about gameplay tweaks they think are bad because they suppose having sufficient knowledge of the gameplay to know what the consequences will be. All the fuzz about this particular (and honestly, minor) issue is only greater because 1) It's nearly as popular as the turn rate nerf right now, and the turn rate nerf is still in despite everything that has been said about it, and that the "test period" has long finished. 2) cmp trolled with his first response on the topic, yet the donkey crew is expected to become more serious about community feedback in the future. I mean this is literally written on the M:BG page. Most of these people complaining love the game and would hate to see it become less good than it is, that is why reactions can go full retard even with minor issues.

Right now if I had to name two issues with gameplay elements that were added to cRPG, I would say : 1) turn rate 2) double hits. Those two are for me "fully bad" changes, that is, they don't bring anything good and it's not a matter of weighting the different effects. I don't really like the armor soak/reduce changes either but that one has upsides.

[Falka]

I am also glad I got to see how mod development worked in oldschool days where every new feature for your favorite game was greeted with a smile(out of respect, because without developers, you could not change anything yourself), and where people actually tried something out for a couple of day instead of instantly writing off what they THINK is bad.

Are you talking about development of cRPG? I don't know since when you're here but believe me, slot & upkeep patch wasn't "greeted with a smile". Current discussion is nothing in comparison to shitstorm which that patch brought on.

[Kafein]

Are you talking about development of cRPG? I don't know since when you're here but believe me, slot & upkeep patch wasn't "greeted with a smile". Current discussion is nothing in comparison to shitstorm which that patch brought on.

Remove upkeep, more grind ! Never forget 2010 !

I like everything about slots though. And I got over my nostalgia of 2010 cRPG.

What I meant was the changes to game mechanics, I would've thought that it was implied since 20 pages are about game mechanics, not about models. But, being vicious you are, you took the opportunity to point out how I am talking about EVERY CHANGE IN WHOLE CRPG. Again, very gentlemanly of you. "A snake and a scholar", more appropriate term.

Fair enough.

Still, I like slots.

[Gnjus]

Is it just me or this community's feedback consists of demanding while having zero respect towards developers for they are doing?

The demanding and hate has especially become noticeable after the recent investment plan worked out. I guess people think that, by investing money into the next game, they also get to dictate development of cRPG and judge behavior or developers. This is hardly a way of "A gentleman and a Scholar".

Well, I am glad I am not on the elitist bandwagon that will inevitably ruin this mod by trying to judge every change only trough "best crpg players" perspective. I am also glad I got to see how mod development worked in oldschool days where every new feature for your favorite game was greeted with a smile(out of respect, because without developers, you could not change anything yourself), and where people actually tried something out for a couple of day instead of instantly writing off what they THINK is bad.

You're starting to sound like Leshma........don't go there brother.

[Falka]

Remove upkeep, more grind ! Never forget 2010 !

I like everything about slots though. And I got over my nostalgia of 2010 cRPG.

I love slots and upkeep, best patch ever! 

[Tennenoth]

Having watched gameplay, having had it happen to me as well and just the general silliness of when it happens.

It's a-load-a rubbish.

Makes totally no sense gameplay wise, rewards... nothing and penalises a lot of things!

[rustyspoon]

This change is...not good.

In all of my builds, I rarely take IF. I also like to use light armor. I find it fun to move really fast and to die in a couple hits. My entire playstyle revolves around me trying to not get hit ever as any hit is a HUGE detriment. The average player kills me in 2 hits. (3 or 4 for a 1-hander).  I usually average around 4-5 hits to kill someone in medium armor. I LIKE playing that way.

I play very aggressively and try to get in hits wherever I can. I use footwork and speed to break the block/attack rhythm of my opponent.  Glancing is one of the most horrible things that can happen to me because the other person's attack won't be interrupted.

If this change were to go through, it would invalidate my entire playstyle. I myself would have to go back to the block/attack rhythm because I couldn't take the risk of a single attack going through. Usually whenever I'm hit by a polearm or 2-hander it takes 65-75% of my health in one hit. Some people on NA can even 1-shot me with a side swing. Now, even if their damage was reduced by 50% on that non-interrupted swing, it would still take off about 32-37% of my health. Just taking 3 hits like that means I'm guaranteed to be dead.

Let's reverse the roles. Say I'm swinging and my opponent gets his swing in first. Mine still hits. However as the damage on mine is reduced by about 50%, I can pretty much guarantee that mine will glance.

If this change were to happen, any intelligent person would know that the best way to beat me would be to never stop swinging as I would lose every time. My only hope would be to chamber every single attack that is brought against me and I kind of find that to be a bit unreasonable.

In games, gameplay always trumps realism. Realism in games only belongs when it enhances gameplay. All this change would do is benefit playstyles that already have a lot stacked in their favor.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

I think Kulin has good points, though I didn't read the whole discussion.

back to topic: It is horrible. Like Rusty said, but not only for your playstyle. There are so few but very risky ways to break through the block/hit rythm. If you took the risk before the change you either did it wrong or right and your enemy could react accordingly wrong or right. Now you just don't really know what happened, often it is hard to tell who was hitting first and it doesn't even matter anymore because both are fucked, there is no wrong or right behaviour in certain situations. So basically it added a big random factor to the combat.

[NuberT]

I still like it and I have 0 IF on lvl 34.

[Joseph Porta]

No upkeep? Old players playing heavy loomed armor whilst new players are getting smacked? Atleast from what i've heard making money enough for say a milanese plate would take ages. And then 6 months later those players wouldve ran around in heavy armor without any reason to put it off besides eastethic wise..
It would be an armor stacking fest, archers will get buffed because of the higher average armor thus making lower armor bad and not viable.

Gay

[Butan]

No upkeep? [...]It would be an armor stacking fest.

Dont forget to take into consideration that heirlooms + marketplace + armoury / bank clan + good old begging for gold my lord = most players that wants to play heavy armor, already play heavy armor.

Only the clanless, not retiring, not grinding at all, w/o friends do not have the option to... so even if upkeep was removed completely, you would only see a very small % of them trying heavy plate build for real, and most of them would be only to troll a server an evening or two a week. Sorry but I never bough the "heavy armored dudes will be everywhere" conspiracy theory as a good argument in favor of upkeep. I was there playing before upkeep was in, and except a handful of players specialized in plated charger+steel shield+milanese plate, the heavily armored population didnt get hit hard. WPF weight and moving speed was and always will be why there is not much of the playerbase choosing this path.

IMO upkeep plays a role only into forbidding items stack in combination of slot systems (like say, heavy armor set + crossbow; or for an archer, number of arrows; or for a cavalry, medium/heavy armor with a armoured/manoeuvrable horse), but it will not totally replace the gameplay mechanics penalties applying to a certain playstyle, related to whether or not you will choose such or such build/class.

[Rumblood]

You know this gives archers in lighter armor and no IF even more of a reason to want to run away from a melee skirmish? It already takes them being perfect to get in several (or a dozen) hits to kill tincans without getting 1 hit killed in return. Now the tincan doesn't even need to block, just keep swinging right through those hits.

This is the wrong direction to balance out Strength + IF vs Agility + athletics and especially the wrong way to encourage archers to stop camping high places and stop running and pull out a melee weapon and fight.

How do you counter the Strength + armor + IF crutchers now? With even more ranged of course...