Author Topic: A catchy title to start a debate.  (Read 15359 times)

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Offline Tor!

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #135 on: July 31, 2012, 01:52:02 am »
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Without looms?

Hornbow was +3, and also had a +3 melee weapon for a day! (until rufio stole it back)

Edit:
And before anyone asks, no, archery non loomed is very different than loomed and I would not have same stats.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #136 on: July 31, 2012, 01:55:58 am »
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I need 100 wpp in 1h mainly because of damage and less repair chance. So, with 7 WM I'll have 144 wpp in archery. Currently have 139 and let's say it's manageable but I still pull out melee weapon when someone gets too close because chances that I'll miss are pretty damn high.

Offline Bjord

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #137 on: July 31, 2012, 01:58:30 am »
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Leshma needs to stop "trying" other builds. Whenever he does, he starts lobbying for that class and speaks like he's been dedicated <insert class> forever.

Please Leshma, go cav or something and shut up.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #138 on: July 31, 2012, 02:04:19 am »
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Lobbying?

No, I'm not. Just telling how it is from average level perspective.

Offline Bjord

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #139 on: July 31, 2012, 02:11:25 am »
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This instance perhaps.

But surely you are not denying the tens and hundreds of threads about various buffs. Hoplite buff, make awlpikes usable with shield etc, then you went 1h/shield and you wanted to re-do and essentially buff every shield, now you are archer and you're already talking about balance in archery perspective.

Don't be so transparent. :wink:
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Offline 22nd_deprav

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #140 on: July 31, 2012, 02:12:24 am »
+2
Leshma if you can't manage to hit with 140/150 wpf I think you're just not supposed to play an archer and stick to other classes :3

And yeah remember some of us introduced the idea of changing some game mechanics to make kitting obsolete (motf flags spawing way sooner is an exemple). To find a balance the game needs to introduce a concept of goal other than killing everyone for e-penis. If archers want to kite and run when they see melee that would actually still be doable, but useless since they won't benefit their team if they're running away from the flags.

And if archers feels like going melee well, they make choices at the start of the round and take an adequat equipement. You can't have everything all the time, sometimes I have to make a choice if I want with my 1h : a 1 slot shield and 2 stacks of throwing, or a 2 slot shields and 1 stack, or 1 slot shield and a spear. That's part of the game, making judicious choices depending on the environnement. That's the good thing with having a "hybrid" (I don't call putting ~90 wpf in 1h hybrid for an archer, I call that common sense) build, you can make choices to weather use or do not use your side skills depending on the situation.


I get your general point, but I can't believe that in particular. I think what actually happens in build design is a very organic process that starts from what the game is and goes through popularity cycles until another change is made. That people would plan their build then ask for changes seems pretty far fetched. I think specialist builds rationally are the best adapted to the current balance, but people neglect the fact that specialist will have more difficulties facing their counter classes or some specific battle configurations (like 0 ath cav in towns), and that it is very frustrating. Being killed defenceless induces rage which leads to balance rants.

Anyway, blaming the players will not get us anywhere.


Btw, shields are about as effective a counter to archers as bunkers a weapon against people launching missiles on you.

I don't get your last line !

But yes you got my point and you kind of explained the same thing with your own words. It's like buffing scissors cause they get crushed by rock, so the "new cycle" starts and people choose to play scissors, but with that starts the whine of the rock being now underpowered against scissors and leaves, which leads to some leaves nerf to satisfy the rocks etc...
And all that because everyone makes "specialist" builds, and I repeat myself but that's the whole point off my thread, for fackin e-penis reasons. They keep arguing that specialist builds are the only way to have fun but end up raging at other classes 50% of the time, where's the fun in that, gentlemen ?
Rage that leads to more useless-ish tweaks of the game that will start a new build trend.

This is just plainly retarded, people needs to realize that they are either playing the game wrong, or playing an unsuitable class for them. You can't ask for things to change everytime you get killed in a multiplayer game, you'll always end up killed at some point if you play against other humans, they're not bot.
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« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:28:40 am by 22nd_deprav »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #141 on: July 31, 2012, 02:20:55 am »
-1
This instance perhaps.

But surely you are not denying the tens and hundreds of threads about various buffs. Hoplite buff, make awlpikes usable with shield etc, then you went 1h/shield and you wanted to re-do and essentially buff every shield, now you are archer and you're already talking about balance in archery perspective.

Don't be so transparent. :wink:

Everything besides 2H and melee cavalry should be buffed. Because it takes too long to kill people.

I'm playing on my main as well and I think that 2H shouldn't be buffed.

Offline Bjord

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #142 on: July 31, 2012, 02:24:19 am »
-1
Leshma if you can't manage to hit with 140/150 wpf I think you're just not supposed to play an archer and stick to other classes :3

And yeah remember some of us introduced the idea of changing some game mechanics to make kitting obsolete (motf flags spawing way sooner is an exemple). To find a balance the game needs to introduce a concept of goal other than killing everyone for e-penis. If archers want to kite and run when they see melee that would actually still be doable, but useless since they won't benefit their team if they're running away from the flags.

And if archers feels like going melee well, they make choices at the start of the round and take an adequat equipement. You can't have everything all the time, sometimes I have to make a choice if I want with my 1h : a 1 slot shield and 2 stacks of throwing, or a 2 slot shields and 1 stack, or 1 slot shield and a spear. That's part of the game, making judicious choices depending on the environnement. That's the good thing with having a "hybrid" (I don't call putting ~90 wpf in 1h hybrid for an archer, I call that common sense) build, you can make choices to weather use or do not use your side skills depending on the situation.


You do not seem to grasp the concept of balance. How does the spawning of flags stop archers from running in the middle of a round? You think they only run during last minute of round?

So long as there is a considerable drawback for engaging in melee, archers will always run. It doesn't matter if they ruin their team's chance of winning, nobody thinks like that sadly.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #143 on: July 31, 2012, 02:28:36 am »
+1
Would be crazy to buff 2h, shielder or polearm anyways. They are dominating the battle field, most people play melee builds (including melee cav).

Rounds are usually decided in melee combat. Only on certain maps the round ends with an archer/crossbow duel, not even mentioning throwers and Horse Archers (or even horse throwers).

I don't know how to stop kiting because limiting the Archers movement speed is not an option. I simply do not fight with less than 5 Athletics. I never played any build with less than 15 AGI. All my infantry builds had at least 15 AGI because footwork really needs more than 4 Athletics and less, especially in a battle situation and in a duel.
Hybrids maybe need a bit more love, without destroying "pure" builds, but they are simply better than an AGI or STR build as they have both, medium dmg and medium speed. That is better than concentrating on either.

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Offline 22nd_deprav

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #144 on: July 31, 2012, 02:32:23 am »
+1
You do not seem to grasp the concept of balance. How does the spawning of flags stop archers from running in the middle of a round? You think they only run during last minute of round?

So long as there is a considerable drawback for engaging in melee, archers will always run. It doesn't matter if they ruin their team's chance of winning, nobody thinks like that sadly.

It doesn't stop them from running in the middle of a round, just let them run, if they want to be useless and never get any multiplier and be hated by their team let them run as much as they want. The principle of the idea isn't to suppress kitting it is to make it useless, you don't have to run behind them anymore, you go to the flag and get your win.

Balancing something doesn't necessarily implies tweaking each side, you can slightly change the goal so each side have to assume a slightly different role/behaviour that matches their already existing attributes/characteristics.

Edit : And if you dislike being kitted that much but like to chase archers like a dog, take stones to slow them down \o/

I'm off for tonite
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:44:22 am by 22nd_deprav »
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #145 on: July 31, 2012, 03:14:56 am »
-1
But yes you got my point and you kind of explained the same thing with your own words. It's like buffing scissors cause they get crushed by rock, so the "new cycle" starts and people choose to play scissors, but with that starts the whine of the rock being now underpowered against scissors and leaves, which leads to some leaves nerf to satisfy the rocks etc...
And all that because everyone makes "specialist" builds, and I repeat myself but that's the whole point off my thread, for fackin e-penis reasons. They keep arguing that specialist builds are the only way to have fun but end up raging at other classes 50% of the time, where's the fun in that, gentlemen ?
Rage that leads to more useless-ish tweaks of the game that will start a new build trend.
Honestly, kiting needs to be removed, it's just gay, ain't insanely effective, it's just gay, all the way, but besides that, archery is fine/needs a slight accuracy 'n' speed buff.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2012, 03:17:50 am »
0
Rounds are usually decided in melee combat. Only on certain maps the round ends with an archer/crossbow duel, not even mentioning throwers and Horse Archers (or even horse throwers).
A person mentions horse throwers over horse crossbowmen, proof I'm fucking epic.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2012, 08:01:21 am »
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A person mentions horse throwers over horse crossbowmen, proof I'm fucking epic.

maybe on NA.

discuss

Offline Molly

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #148 on: July 31, 2012, 08:45:56 am »
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A person mentions horse throwers over horse crossbowmen, proof I'm fucking epic.
maybe on NA.

discuss
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Offline Zerran

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2012, 10:46:48 am »
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Shooting someone so they will get 1hit in melee is the the advantage archers have. That's what I did in my archer gens. Shot at people at a distance, someone tried to close in I shot at them, they got close I finished them off with my sword. Never more than 1 or 2 hits, unless a) I missed my shots (my own mistake) or b) they were more than 1 (why should they not have the advantage) or c) if they have a shield (natural counter to my shots).

And saying they can't wear armour. Bullshit. You can't wear plate, that's for sure. Rus Scale armour? Nope. But anything from light kuyak and down is completely ok.

Agreed. I'd say part of the problem is the concept a lot of archers have that they need to be a 100% ranged class that instantly dies in melee. Because of this they don't get any melee skills, have no armor, die in 1 hit, can't deal any damage, and have to just run away.

My archer alt has 6 PS and 50 2H wpf using a Fighting Axe with 1 stack of arrows and either a Rus or Longbow. I can fight in melee just fine with that (And I do well at range too). In fact, I often insta-kill people because they expect some 0PS 0 WPF archer, and I'm hitting them with a 6PS axe.

Something needs to be done about these archers that completely disregard their melee skills. Maybe something like what Blindguy suggested, make the slot system use dedicated slots. So archers can only get 1 stack of arrows, and have no excuse to not get a melee weapon. I'd also say anyone with a bow equipped needs their ath capped at a reasonable level, so we don't have these 7+ ath archers in no armor that simply can't be killed.

I recently saw a HA get dismounted and drop their bow... along with 3 stacks of arrows. How the hell do you use 3 stacks of arrows in 1 round if you're actually taking ANY time to aim your shots?
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