A catchy title to start a debate.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

No, archers dont run away for pleasure. The fact that archers have sligtly more accuracy with light armor is reason enought to go for it. couple that with retarded melee capability and we have kiting. So, like I've explained before, armor is the way to fix it.

Dude, you currently got 15/10 weight points that mean nothing to your accuracy, what more do you expect? Plate? I've seen you in game, you wear a straw hat, a white shirt, and you run like a bitch, drop ath and you get ps, but, as long as my old friends like you would rather kite kiting needs to be removed, you're perfectly capable of being decent in melee while having decent archery capabilities, but you choose kiting.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I'm still amused that so many people complained that Archers could melee and wanted it took away, and now they want it back as archers are now running. Give it 6 months or a year after "melee archer" becomes viable again, and the cries of nerf will be back to take it away the instant anyone becomes good at it.

I used to melee and not run away before the slot nerf, actually. Now I use a +3 stick because why the hell not, given the current state of things.

Tears, you can still melee if you don't kite! So stop kiting! my old friend! And let's duel! Bring it on you one-mouse button dog! (just map blocking to some other damn button!)

[Tears of Destiny]

To be fair, being decent at melee and being decent at archery is worse then being great at melee with no archery, or being great at archery with no melee. Jack-of-all-trades are terrible classes, Hybrids are awkward unless you are at high levels especially considering the slot system punishes you for picking up two specialties at once.

[22nd_deprav]

A game is for fun.

If "figuring it out" is not to the taste of the player, the game needs betterment. It's not the other way around.

My thoughts exactly.

I get that point and it's for sure another truth.

But people are constantly wasting their energy whinning about some details to tweak/balance/change/nerf , some are constructive and some ain't, but that will lead nowhere, they will never be a perfect middle ground, no one will ever agree on that cause everyone wants to have the strongest build. It's like playing rock, paper, scissors and constantly asking to buff rock cause it pwnz scissors to hard and once it's done the game is obviously totally fucked up, so you keep tweaking them one by one for the same result at the end.

It obviously needs some tweaking from the dev team, but it seriously needs some common sense and thoughts from the players.

I think you guys don't really get my point, people make retarded builds and push it to the extreme cause they know it can be tweaked to their will if they whine hard enough on the forums; so they'll finally have the perfect build they've always dreamed about. If the devs weren't that close the players and didn't give a fuck, we would just be adaptating our ass to the game as it would be - like most multiplayer games actually.

And maybe if one day people start playing the game properly the devs will be able to deliver some real proper tweakings and balancing.

Sure it's fun to be an epic aragorn-like swordman and run on the battlefield like u no fear death, but if you want your favorite game to be balanced one day you better start think wisely now. You'd like it to be tweaked at your will, cause your thoughts ain't less subjective than mines, so it gets fun for you. And subjective fun in mount&blade -when I see the state of mind of most players- probably means slaughtering everyone... But in that case your fun ruins the fun of the other classes. That's not how you balance a game cause every class will whine for its own sake.

Do you get where am going ?

You just can't make a balanced game if players are asking to be able to run on the battlefield unprotected and not getting slaughtered by other classes, you can't make it cause that's just not possible. You just don't make 100 men charge the ennemy unprotected if you want to win a fight, maybe in holywood movies they do.

Think rock, paper, scissor.

Edit :

To be fair, being decent at melee and being decent at archery is worse then being great at melee with no archery, or being great at archery with no melee. Jack-of-all-trades are terrible classes, Hybrids are awkward unless you are at high levels especially considering the slot system punishes you for picking up two specialties at once.

Denied ! I'm multi-class (3 and a half actually, I pushed the concept to the extreme) and he result will be perfect on 34. 34 for 3 and a half class, means you can make a totally viable double-class char on level 30-31 and it would probably be stronger than mine actually.

[Jarlek]

Exept dieing with 1 hit doesn't encourage going melee. With the weight of armor archers wouldn't be able to kite properly, that's the trade off. A dedicated melee charater should still have little trouble dispatching an armoured archer, unless the meleer had no skill. What I propose is that archers actually look like they did and not kite.

No, archers dont run away for pleasure. The fact that archers have sligtly more accuracy with light armor is reason enought to go for it. couple that with retarded melee capability and we have kiting. So, like I've explained before, armor is the way to fix it.

Shooting someone so they will get 1hit in melee is the the advantage archers have. That's what I did in my archer gens. Shot at people at a distance, someone tried to close in I shot at them, they got close I finished them off with my sword. Never more than 1 or 2 hits, unless a) I missed my shots (my own mistake) or b) they were more than 1 (why should they not have the advantage) or c) if they have a shield (natural counter to my shots).

And saying they can't wear armour. Bullshit. You can't wear plate, that's for sure. Rus Scale armour? Nope. But anything from light kuyak and down is completely ok.

[Tears of Destiny]

Tears, you can still melee if you don't kite! So stop kiting! my old friend! And let's duel! Bring it on you one-mouse button dog! (just map blocking to some other damn button!)

Alright, at level 30 I need, to be an effective archer, at least 5 ATHL to not be gimped in a melee fight 6 since I have a short stubby weapon so I don't want to be back-peddle spammed to death by a real melee fighter not using a toothpick and instead a real long sword/polearm, 6PD to effect anything I shoot at (Preferably 7 so I can actually hurt armored people), 160 wpf so i can actually hit my targets, anything lower then 150 and it becomes too much luck. I also need 6PS to hit anything and not glance constantly, though I can make do with 5 if I have the ATHL to properly footwork (which case I need 6 or 7 ATHL not 5).

So essentially I will be a lightly armored agi character with no HP or Armor but forced to use a short weapon without the ATHL that real AGI characters receive as well as without the wpf, so against an equal-skilled opponent I am already fighting a gimped battle... This does not sound attractive, at all.

I am sorry but with the current system, an archer with any attempt at real melee is gimped from the start against an equal skilled opponent, and I don't like uphill battles.

[22nd_deprav]

And archers probably wouldn't get 1 hitted if the largest part of the infantry would sacrifice a bit of their overpowered build and lower their speciality to take some protections (spears for cav or shields for ranged). And archers not being one hitted maybe they would melee a bit more often.

so the thing that unbalances the game the most is making retarded "specialist" builds.

[Adamar]

Dude, you currently got 15/10 weight points that mean nothing to your accuracy, what more do you expect? Plate? I've seen you in game, you wear a straw hat, a white shirt, and you run like a bitch, drop ath and you get ps, but, as long as my old friends like you would rather kite kiting needs to be removed, you're perfectly capable of being decent in melee while having decent archery capabilities, but you choose kiting.

Actually I use a helmet with neckguard, scale armor, hide boots, longbow, mace and bodkin arrows. I know what Im talking about when I mention armor vs accuracy and melee. I shouldn't have to sacrifice my accuracy to have a chance to survive in melee.

And saying they can't wear armour. Bullshit. You can't wear plate, that's for sure. Rus Scale armour? Nope. But anything from light kuyak and down is completely ok.

I didn't say archers can't wear armor, in fact sometimes I pull out my plate armor and gs so I can kill more as a meleer than I do as an archer, even with archer stats. The point is, weight reduces your accuracy. In my curren longbow build I can barely hit stuff at long range unless I switch to light armor.

[Bjord]

And archers probably wouldn't get 1 hitted if the largest part of the infantry would sacrifice a bit of their overpowered build and lower their speciality to take some protections (spears for cav or shields for ranged). And archers not being one hitted maybe they would melee a bit more often.

so the thing that unbalances the game the most is making retarded "specialist" builds.

You are so fucking wrong. The reason we have "specialist" builds(really just pure classes...) is to counter another build. It's all connected. But archers are special, as they are the class with next to zero melee capabilities. They have their own circle of balance, the only thing that affects archers is other archers, or other ranged even. A footman can dream about engaging an archer in melee, so long as he can run. Cav fucks everyone up but their horses die easily, so they at least have a weakness you can take advantage of. Archers have ability to kite basically forever, without taking account for other teammates and my old friendchers to assist you.

As I said before, give archers better zero slot weapons. Something that is viable, not the fucking gimpy hammer and pick axe.

Now please stop saying that it's our own fault for not wearing shields. Do you think archers will stop running if we get shields? Wake the fuck up, that will only make them run more. In fact, when archers see a shielder approaching they begin running instantly.

So then back to square one, everyone iscomplaining about archers kiting and running.

[Leshma]

Tears is right about everything. Archery + melee hybrid is extremely unpleasant to play. I'm still far from lvl 30 but I doubt it will be better considering my knowledge of the game and experience. At this level (23) I can kill 60% of player base with a pitchfork. With bow I'm just a sitting duck.

I see no reason why should I waste 5 or 6 skill points on power draw when I can have one more PS/IF or ATH/WM or put all those points into horse or shield. Wpp I wanted to put in archery (144) will be a lot more useful in xbow. With 144 xbow and crossbow I can snipe a bit, and I'll be very accurate at short/medium distances. With 144 wpp in archery I can't snipe at all and medium distances are 50% luck.

With 1 wpp in crossbow I can reliably shoot people from short/medium distances. With 130 wpp in archery I have 20% chances to hit someone from point blank!

If you don't believe my words, test it yourself. First xbow/1h char from 1 to 30 then archery/1h char from 1 to 30. I bet you'll quit trying to level hybrid archer who's supposed to fight in melee.

[TurmoilTom]

Who cares if archers run or not?

It's not like their arrows do damage or anything.

[Kafein]

I'm still amused that so many people complained that Archers could melee and wanted it took away

I think that is abusive interpretation.

Many people don't want (and never wanted) archers to carry pikes, flamberges and great mauls and the slot system fixed that elegantly.

Now, archers should be able to fight alright with one slot weapons (or more if they sacrifice a quiver) and I think most people agreed about that even before the introduction of slots.


The problem at hand clearly is kiting. It ruins the fun of the game for the recieving end and therefore should not be the most effective archery tactic. Part of fixing it is giving archers some flexibility and the expense of speed and their specialisation in archery.

I think you guys don't really get my point, people make retarded builds and push it to the extreme cause they know it can be tweaked to their will if they whine hard enough on the forums; so they'll finally have the perfect build they've always dreamed about. If the devs weren't that close the players and didn't give a fuck, we would just be adaptating our ass to the game as it would be - like most multiplayer games actually.

I get your general point, but I can't believe that in particular. I think what actually happens in build design is a very organic process that starts from what the game is and goes through popularity cycles until another change is made. That people would plan their build then ask for changes seems pretty far fetched. I think specialist builds rationally are the best adapted to the current balance, but people neglect the fact that specialist will have more difficulties facing their counter classes or some specific battle configurations (like 0 ath cav in towns), and that it is very frustrating. Being killed defenceless induces rage which leads to balance rants.

Anyway, blaming the players will not get us anywhere.


Btw, shields are about as effective a counter to archers as bunkers a weapon against people launching missiles on you.

[Bjord]

I cannot for the life of me imagine anyone who enjoys chasing archers, never being able to catch them. That's like playing a game that you can't win because winning is not an option.

And with bodkin arrows, they will always deal damage. Miniscule at long ranger, but pierce damage has a 20% damage bonus to head and considering they recently increased the hitbox for head, it's fully possible to be viable with 5 PD and 8-9 athletics.

[Tor!]

Tears is right about everything. Archery + melee hybrid is extremely unpleasant to play. I'm still far from lvl 30 but I doubt it will be better considering my knowledge of the game and experience. At this level (23) I can kill 60% of player base with a pitchfork. With bow I'm just a sitting duck.

I did this build at lvl 30:

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 18
Agility: 18
Hit points: 63
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 6
Athletics: 6
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 60
Archery: 150

And it worked wonders for me. 150 was enough for hornbow, bodkins for arrows and warhammer or flanged mace for melee, cant remember which one. I think my KD was about 2.7 with the majority of my kills by ranged. I will admit though, I shot most at the short - medium distance.

Archer hybrids are capable, but it is obvious you will not be most accurate archer or capable meleer.

[Teeth]

I think my KD was about 2.7 with the majority of my kills by ranged.

Without looms?