Author Topic: NA gets Patch  (Read 20218 times)

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Offline Shatter

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #165 on: June 23, 2012, 01:54:48 am »
+1
Spin stabs are a part of the game. They are not a "glitch" or "abuse," but just a tactic in the game. Are people that are turning into their swings abusing some kind of broken game mechanic? No, they are just playing the game.

What is the reason for the nerf? Realism? There are tons of things that are unrealistic in this game. Why would you choose to take out something and lower the complexity of the game?

I still don't know what is trying to be fixed with this nerf other than to completely throw off the balance of the game or to make the game easier.

I could understand a change that added complexity to the game and threw off balance. It could be fixed over time and the game in the long run could be better. But throwing off balance and removing complexity doesn't seem like the right decision.




Offline Huey Newton

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #166 on: June 23, 2012, 01:58:22 am »
+2
play stronghold kingdoms with me, poophammer, badplayer, sequel, shik, world 3, ireland, county leitrim.

its like strategus but 10000x better and we need more people to grief shithead polacks that ruin ireland for us and razed me my first week and eventually invade wales and scotland

I just might.
I've been M2tw lately and somehow managed to get every christian nation to go to war with me, while having 6 islamic allies.
(i'm playing as venice)  :shock:



Also
they need to make a game with Europa universalis's diplomacy/policy shit, M2tw large scale battles and city/castle management and Warband's combat system.
And lets throw in 10 person online co-op as well.
Now that would be a game.

P.s. don't really care about how they change crpg at this point. I'm still gonna kill a metric fuckton of people cause cav is hard

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #167 on: June 23, 2012, 02:09:45 am »
+1
INCOMING ESSAY ON GAME DESIGN/CRITIQUE OF CHANGES

The nerf was a big part because on eu servers, the dominant 2handers are german danish and greatswords with agi heavy builds, that probably abuse the living shit out of the stab while backpedaling and spinning and you don't see it so often on NA

One thing I really like that it stopped, is some of the bullshit 360s people did with pikes, halberds, etc.  sorry to people like tanken and sosarian_knight, you guys are awesome players (lol at sosarian using a great long bardiche, not so lol at tanken wanting to quit the game) but you guys are some of the best examples of abusing the animation system for unfair advantages compared to more orothodox players.

What you guys did was go 30/9 or even more extreme builds, which should punish people for not being able to establish proper range control against enemies engaging them in 1 vs 1s, good builds to be in a frontal line and supporting people, but easily overwhelmed or beaten by someone like a fast 2 hander or shielder.  However with the way it was before, you could effectively, as you've done to me and many other playes countless times, start up an attack and do a 360 jump backwards, forcing glances as you spun in heavy armor with 10 if and no weapon master, and landing a perfect, extremely high damaging piercing attack regardless of distance.  You were using the game mechanics to pretty much bypass the implied balance by weapon types and builds and I don't think the crpg devs were happy about this, and saw the Warband engine as being against their idea for smooth and balanced medieval gameplay.

I can understand you Tristan and Sauce in not thinking they should mess with Warband native mechanics too much, but cmp as a programmer, chadz as a task manager/also programmer and the rest of the team have really made cRPG their own baby, and cmp's amazing work as a programmer is enabling them to interpret melee combat as they would build a game, but are still stuck using Warband as their framework.

Native still exists to get all the urges out (old lancing angles baby) but I know people are too attached to their characters in cRPG to really want to give it up entirely if they like this kind of game.

So I respect the effort and design concepts the team are using, more work than I've seen in cRPG in the past few months then since the gen/exp system overhaul a year and a half ago, and think you guys are one of the most talented mod teams I've seen, even if this game has a pretty limited base of players.

But I do think, at LEAST the overhead angles, should be broaded a bit.  Its as restrictive as you made lancing, which I argued  at the time should've been broadened a bit, was told that it wasn't capable with old WSE, and now realize that the game is much more balanced for it and wouldn't want to change it (if anything cav needs more nerfs lol)

But the overhead nerf is really impeding some of the fluidity of the gameplay, it feels not so different from the effects of polestagger when you do an overhead.  Overheading was easy enough to miss before, and you had to track your target after you released the animation to not leave yourself a big open target.  This was doubly true when you added the weapon stun after connecting to the ground if you miss.  The reduced turning angle of overheads, coupled with the weapon stun when colliding with the map, I think ends up too great of a nerf to melee combat, not leaving it more balanced but instead making it just less fun and WAY too much risk to overhead which is the superior attack for group fighting/support (which you people should be encouraging!)

So my evaluation, so far, is that I understand the intent behind it, agree with the concept, but think it was just a little too dramatic and would be happier with a broader turn radius for overheads.

edit:  on second thought, I think the main problem is the speed which you can pivot while doing an overhead, not the radius.  I think better balance will be achieved by increasing acceleration while keeping a similar restriction on the angles you can turn into, much like lancing.

I just might.
I've been M2tw lately and somehow managed to get every christian nation to go to war with me, while having 6 islamic allies.
(i'm playing as venice)  :shock:



Also
they need to make a game with Europa universalis's diplomacy/policy shit, M2tw large scale battles and city/castle management and Warband's combat system.
And lets throw in 10 person online co-op as well.
Now that would be a game.

P.s. don't really care about how they change crpg at this point. I'm still gonna kill a metric fuckton of people cause cav is hard

Hit me up on Steam if you decide to give Stronghold a shot, so I can give you a referral and some pro tips.  Even Thax started playing as my vassal haha.

You saw me playing cav for the first time in months on a skip the fun character since I could put my champ desti and lance on it.  18/24 8 riding pure cav build.  35 kills my very first map after 4 rounds and not playing cav in seriously 4-6 months.  What a joke lmao
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 02:54:45 am by Smoothrich »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #168 on: June 23, 2012, 02:12:49 am »
+2
Spin stabs are a part of the game. They are not a "glitch" or "abuse," but just a tactic in the game. Are people that are turning into their swings abusing some kind of broken game mechanic? No, they are just playing the game.

Spin stabs are possible because people who made this game either had no time to implement intertia or were just lazy. Thefore, human movement is just like in every other game, unrealistic. It doesn't fit well with many other aspects of this game which are very realistic compared to other video games.

I do understand that spin stab is "skilled" move or trick but it's simply not realistic. It's like something from Quake 3 Arena or Tribes. It takes skill to perfect but you'll never see any fighter irl fighting like that.

This game is built to be realistic medieval battle simulator. They couldn't make everything they wanted to so we have to live with certain badly done mechanics. Cmp is trying to fix that, nothing more.

Offline Digglez

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #169 on: June 23, 2012, 02:33:22 am »
-4
Seems really easy to dodge polearm overheads now.

OMG, just like it would be in REALITY?

Probably the best patch I've seen from the perspective of a 1h/shielder.  Getting rid of half of the stupid game breaking mechanic shenanigans that veteran players used to shit on noobs.  OMG fights last longer? You might have to USE TEAMWORK in a multiplayer game?

Offline TugBoat

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #170 on: June 23, 2012, 02:37:53 am »
+2
OMG, just like it would be in REALITY?

Probably the best patch I've seen from the perspective of a 1h/shielder.  Getting rid of half of the stupid game breaking mechanic shenanigans that veteran players used to shit on noobs.  OMG fights last longer? You might have to USE TEAMWORK in a multiplayer game?

I'm having trouble following agility characters by swinging overheads because I can't even turn my body fast enough to meet them. Unrealistic.

Offline Shatter

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #171 on: June 23, 2012, 02:40:05 am »
+1
Spin stabs are possible because people who made this game either had no time to implement intertia or were just lazy. Thefore, human movement is just like in every other game, unrealistic. It doesn't fit well with many other aspects of this game which are very realistic compared to other video games.

I do understand that spin stab is "skilled" move or trick but it's simply not realistic. It's like something from Quake 3 Arena or Tribes. It takes skill to perfect but you'll never see any fighter irl fighting like that.

This game is built to be realistic medieval battle simulator. They couldn't make everything they wanted to so we have to live with certain badly done mechanics. Cmp is trying to fix that, nothing more.
I'm okay with the game trying to be as realistic as possible. But, I would hope the actual gameplay comes first before absolute realism. Where do you draw the line between realism and unrealistic features that make gameplay better? Should certain weapons have a chance of getting stuck in armor? Should lances break on couch? Should getting hit by a full speed horse kill you or at least do significantly more damage than it does?

Personally, I play this game because I love the gameplay and the mechanics. All the work the cRPG devs have put into this game has significantly increased the quality and longevity of the game. I just hope the actual gameplay is the priority and not making it into a "medieval battle simulator."

Offline bruce

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #172 on: June 23, 2012, 02:48:58 am »
+1
Should certain weapons have a chance of getting stuck in armor?

Maybe, if well done.

Should lances break on couch?

Yes, also on prolonged use of any sort.

Should getting hit by a full speed horse kill you or at least do significantly more damage than it does?

Yes, definitely. And zero-inertia infantry is lols. (then again, so is the maneuver of the agile horse line) However, a real (unarmoured, and armoured even) horse won't merrily gallop around with a arbalest bolt in its flank. And running into a chambered weapon should hurt like hell. Running into a chambered spear should count as a couch against the horse (it's actually done in 1257 AD and it is epic).
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #173 on: June 23, 2012, 02:49:28 am »
0
I'm having trouble following agility characters by swinging overheads because I can't even turn my body fast enough to meet them. Unrealistic.

Its difficult to track because to enable the degree reduction in your turning, they simply greatly reduced the acceleration of your spinning (so it seems to me.)  Perhaps if you want to enable a certain degree radius in turning during a weapon swing, you could accomplish it with some kind of limit (like lancing), instead of reducing the acceleration/speed of your turn?  People who I keep in front of me and try to overhead in a group fight or duel, it feels like the engine of the game is fighting against the player instead of enabling the player to execute pretty simple moves.

And I repeat, along with missing overheads, the fact that you get stunned to shit when you hit the ground makes this a bit bigger nerf to melee than I would like.

Basically I think you guys need to focus on making support attacks/weapons (like long ass weapons and long ass pokes on swords) be less effective in 1 vs 1s without establishing proper reach before you attack, but not being able to effectively compensate for random erratic player movements after beginning your animation is kind of lame and clumsy. 

My playstyle has evolved to use great swords in mostly a support role, trying to flank and sneak in overheads on people out of position or mid duel with other people, taking pressure off teammates, killing cav with the stab, padding my KD with killsteals, and using a weapon that I like in 1 vs 1 situations well enough (which the greatswords honestly aren't the best at, notice the dominance of longsword in NA weapon statistics).  The patch hasn't nerfed me THAT bad, but the 2 handed overhand animation was one of my favorite "finishers" in Warband, easy to feint into, and you need to be able to track your target to make it land.  Just increase turning speed a bit please.

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Offline Shatter

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #174 on: June 23, 2012, 02:52:34 am »
0
Should certain weapons have a chance of getting stuck in armor?

Maybe, if well done.

Should lances break on couch?

Yes, also on prolonged use of any sort.

Should getting hit by a full speed horse kill you or at least do significantly more damage than it does?

Yes. However, a real (unarmoured, and armoured even) horse won't merrily gallop around with a arbalest bolt in its flank. And running into a chambered weapon should hurt like hell. Running into a chambered spear should count as a couch against the horse (it's actually done in 1257 AD and it is epic).
It's fine that you think those changes should happen. They are more realistic. But would they make for a better game? Weapons breaking, getting stuck, instant killed by horses just makes the game more random, so I would argue that they would make the game worse. It all comes down to where the devs draw the line between gameplay and realism.

Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #175 on: June 23, 2012, 02:56:57 am »
+2
play stronghold kingdoms with me, poophammer, badplayer, sequel, shik, world 3, ireland, county leitrim.

its like strategus but 10000x better and we need more people to grief shithead polacks that ruin ireland for us and razed me my first week and eventually invade wales and scotland

If anyone does take up this offer and moves into Leitrim hit me up and I will be your lord which is pretty important to have, especially someone of my rank

dont let badplayer be your lord or else you will get razed on day 4 lmao (ask smoothrich all about it)
Uther Pendragon: dont worry i wasnt planning on trusting you anyway

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #176 on: June 23, 2012, 03:55:32 am »
0
If anyone does take up this offer and moves into Leitrim hit me up and I will be your lord which is pretty important to have, especially someone of my rank

dont let badplayer be your lord or else you will get razed on day 4 lmao (ask smoothrich all about it)

We do want some of the cool crpg players to start playing with us, its honestly a lot like the Strategus they tried to make in 3.0 but a lot better (no offense, some of the dev team should actually check out stronghold kingdoms for inspiration for the future, shik is playing it too).

The more players we get in cahoots with us, the stronger faction we can make, and all help each other out.  Its free to play, doesn't require much time but pretty addicting and fun to get your fiefs growing strong and mass producing shit, trading, building a castle, raids, sieges, its kind of like farmville but a lot more depth, and the world is open ended for griefing, complete razing of villages.. the only thing that can protect ur precious farms and mines is your own army and your faction bros.

Maybe I'll make a thread about it in Other Games to help organize shit, I think a lot of the players here like games like europa and Strategus and it could become popular with this community.

And POOPHAMMER is right.  If BADPLAYER, the bundle of sticks banqueter with a shit army and no respect, is your liege lord, you will probably get razed within days and have to start over.

Sequel is actually the leader of our faction (nK lol) and POOPHAMMER is a pr0 baron dude with mad shit, check it out yall
My posting is like a katana folded 1000 times to perfection.. and the community is what keeps the edge sharp.. and bloody.  -  Me.

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Offline Penitent

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #177 on: June 23, 2012, 03:56:02 am »
0
Actually, now trying it for a while it might not be that bad.  You can still twist with overhead and thrust attacks pretty fast within a cone in front of you.  I think it will take more time to try.

Offline Vodner

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #178 on: June 23, 2012, 04:00:32 am »
+2
Quote
Spin stabs are possible because people who made this game either had no time to implement intertia or were just lazy.
Limits on turning speed were intentionally implemented in the beta for sideswings. Thrusts also gained a slight turning rate limit. Those limits were intentionally set low.

Quote
Getting rid of half of the stupid game breaking mechanic shenanigans that veteran players used to shit on noobs.
New players *should* die quickly when facing a more experienced opponent. That's what the duel server is there for - building up person skill.

Quote
OMG fights last longer?
They already lasted a silly-long time between experienced players. All this does is make it even easier to drag a fight out.

Mistakes in a fight should be very easy to make, and making them should kill you. Melee should not be forgiving, and should require a large amount of dedication.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 04:13:31 am by Vodner »

Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: NA gets Patch
« Reply #179 on: June 23, 2012, 04:29:20 am »
+2
We do want some of the cool crpg players to start playing with us, its honestly a lot like the Strategus they tried to make in 3.0 but a lot better (no offense, some of the dev team should actually check out stronghold kingdoms for inspiration for the future, shik is playing it too).

The more players we get in cahoots with us, the stronger faction we can make, and all help each other out.  Its free to play, doesn't require much time but pretty addicting and fun to get your fiefs growing strong and mass producing shit, trading, building a castle, raids, sieges, its kind of like farmville but a lot more depth, and the world is open ended for griefing, complete razing of villages.. the only thing that can protect ur precious farms and mines is your own army and your faction bros.

Maybe I'll make a thread about it in Other Games to help organize shit, I think a lot of the players here like games like europa and Strategus and it could become popular with this community.

And POOPHAMMER is right.  If BADPLAYER, the bundle of sticks banqueter with a shit army and no respect, is your liege lord, you will probably get razed within days and have to start over.

Sequel is actually the leader of our faction (nK lol) and POOPHAMMER is a pr0 baron dude with mad shit, check it out yall

I am not a Baron you bundle of sticks, I am a Viscount about 2 ranks away from hitting Earl, and once I hit Earl I am hauling my ass to take over Wales
Uther Pendragon: dont worry i wasnt planning on trusting you anyway