Crossbows and the Return of FPS

[Rhade]

Well how you wanna measure it then? Let's put it this way then. Having someone like Tommy, who is arguably one of the best cavalry on EU, is game changing, and there is quite a chance that his team is gonna win if the map is at least remotely suited for cav. Having someone like Phyrex on your team is the same case. And there are more players both cav and melee that can and are able to turn the tides easily. What about ranged then? There is only one crossbowman that can make a difference like those guys, and that is DaveUKR, and even he is not that effective when it's raining in game. For archers, I don't think there is any that can have that significant impact on the game. IMO Jambi and Bambi are one of the best EU archers an none of them can really affect the game. Yes, they are annyoing, and they can get kills and help other melee guys get easy kills, but they are never as dangerous as equally skilled cav or melee.
What I'm trying to say is, that ranged defintely has much higher annyoing factor, but that's it. They are not as dangerous and they will not one shot you, usually not even two shot you unless you're cloth wearing peasant. If you wanna reduce crossbows as sidearms, go ahead and make wpf restrictions for weapons. But I don't think that will stop the crying.

As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.

Coming from a dedicated archer as my main, I am going to say that there is too much range atm. I would like to see less xbow sidearms, and less thrown. As for the archers, I am mostly fine with the amount in NA, though EU sometimes gets to be nuts with the level of archers there.

Agreed.

[Bravadu]

I am X. X is fine. Nerf Y and Z.

[Kophka]

As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.


Agreed.

Sadly though, K:D is the only method we've been given of measuring battlefield effectiveness. You may personally know how many times you've helped your team win with support, rather than kills, but there is no tangible evidence, hence nothing to introduce in the numbers game that is a balance discussion.

[Rhade]

Sadly though, K:D is the only method we've been given of measuring battlefield effectiveness. You may personally know how many times you've helped your team win with support, rather than kills, but there is no tangible evidence, hence nothing to introduce in the numbers game that is a balance discussion.

A highly experienced, talented and intelligent player (expert witness, if you would) and having him talk with other such players regarding the situation is more than enough tangible evidence. That is usually what forums are for, actually, but the problem is you have too many idiots giving opinions that they really aren't too informed so it usually devolves into a flamefest. Just because KD is a number doesn't make it any more or less "valid" than anything else. Balance is not about numbers, it's not that black and white.

[Kophka]

A highly experienced, talented and intelligent player (expert witness, if you would) and having him talk with other such players regarding the situation is more than enough tangible evidence. That is usually what forums are for, actually, but the problem is you have too many idiots giving opinions that they really aren't too informed so it usually devolves into a flamefest. Just because KD is a number doesn't make it any more or less "valid" than anything else. Balance is not about numbers, it's not that black and white.

Without numbers, it's merely opinion, "I feel that", or "it seems like". I agree with you that support is just as, or more, important than k:d ratio, and should be included in balance planning, but facts are facts, and opinions are subjective.

[Gorath]

Balance is not entirely about numbers

Fixed that for ya bud.     At it's heart balance is truly about math and figures, however KDR as you said is not the end-all-be-all as it's simply one variable to take into account.

The thing about ranged is that it's a player mentality.  Yup, I carry an x-bow around nowadays.  I put a significant amount of wpf into it as well (130 min, 160 max depending on which toon I'm on).  So in essence I am part of the "range excess" problem.  However the reason I have done this is because I'm tired of other ranged bitches camping stupid areas and either forcing me to hide, run in crazy circles hoping I don't get shot to shit in the time it takes to get to melee range (where they have the option to just pull out a random 2h/polearm and fight just as well as someone spec'd for melee), or be shielder #18928479874982749579287495874 with a side katana.  Same with cavalry.  And HA's.  So it's a situation of might as well join them so that when my team is cowering behind cover while thousands of projectiles rain down upon us with horse bastards circling like sharks I can at least DO something, IE:  shoot back.

I go some rounds without my x-bow (mostly to avoid the insane upkeep cost when it breaks) and even if I'm alive by the end of the round I'll have 2-3+ arrows/javelins/etc in my body with no health left and maybe a kill or two because the entire round was spent just TRYING to GET into melee range.  Fuck that, I'd rather shoot back.

[Rhade]

Fixed that for ya bud.     At it's heart balance is truly about math and figures, however KDR as you said is not the end-all-be-all as it's simply one variable to take into account.

The thing about ranged is that it's a player mentality.  Yup, I carry an x-bow around nowadays.  I put a significant amount of wpf into it as well (130 min, 160 max depending on which toon I'm on).  So in essence I am part of the "range excess" problem.  However the reason I have done this is because I'm tired of other ranged bitches camping stupid areas and either forcing me to hide, run in crazy circles hoping I don't get shot to shit in the time it takes to get to melee range (where they have the option to just pull out a random 2h/polearm and fight just as well as someone spec'd for melee), or be shielder #18928479874982749579287495874 with a side katana.  Same with cavalry.  And HA's.  So it's a situation of might as well join them so that when my team is cowering behind cover while thousands of projectiles rain down upon us with horse bastards circling like sharks I can at least DO something, IE:  shoot back.

I go some rounds without my x-bow (mostly to avoid the insane upkeep cost when it breaks) and even if I'm alive by the end of the round I'll have 2-3+ arrows/javelins/etc in my body with no health left and maybe a kill or two because the entire round was spent just TRYING to GET into melee range.  Fuck that, I'd rather shoot back.

Yeah, that's kind of my point, too. You're almost forced to go range these days, really.

Anyway, you can't quantify a lot of the issues regarding balance -- numbers are subjective as well, because you still need to assign relevance and the level of that relevance to each number. In reality, balance always comes down to opinion of some sort, but when you have the majority of experienced players saying the same thing (certain people will always defend imbalances when that imbalance happens to be their crutch or preferred style), it's generally an indication of a balance issue.

[Bravadu]

Balance is all about numbers. 5% here, 2% there. Not all numbers are out in the open, though. Maybe if we could display for everyone damage dealt/received instead of just kd ratio. Also, damage dealt by weapon type and kills by weapon type.

Having said that, it's my observation that it's melee that get most of the kills and thus melee that get most of the high kd rankings every game even though there's usually a sizable amount of ranged players.

Even the highest kd ranged are usually very good in melee and rack up a sizable part of kills from melee.

I'm starting to believe this is a troll thread.

[Trippin]

You must realize that range (from throwing weapons to archery), help to balance out two handed combat. A nerf to range would just compliment the already favored play-style of two handed melee; the reason most of you are complaining is because you fit under that demographic. Melee is definitely the best part about this game in my opinion (and surely that of most others), but other play-styles need to have a place as well without being completely gimped.

Hybrids really aren't that big of a deal either. They sacrifice to be a hybrid, realize that. They sacrifice not even in just stats or weapons and armor, but in combat in general. While they are firing range from a distance, pure melee can spend the time to get closer to the enemies and find more people to kill. A lot of kills in battle servers come from catching people off guard, and that's something that is hard to do from a range (killing them before they have time to react). Keep in mind that if they aren't using their throwing weapons or crossbow, then they are not being an effective hybrid. I understand that there are situations where range is "necessary", but those situations are more or less based on the map and they rarely arise. There is usually always something that pure melee can do that will net them more kills than someone who even pulls out their ranged weapon occasionally.

[Sofa_King]

I love excessively quoting the same thing over and over again, even to my own detriment.

[Elmetiacos]

You must realize that range (from throwing weapons to archery), help to balance out two handed combat. A nerf to range would just compliment the already favored play-style of two handed melee; the reason most of you are complaining is because you fit under that demographic. Melee is definitely the best part about this game in my opinion (and surely that of most others), but other play-styles need to have a place as well without being completely gimped.

That used to be the case, before the patch. However, pwnage as a 2hander depended on heavy armour, reasonably high str and high wpf and you can't have all those anymore. Look at the Kills table and who's on top now - it's not the old greatsword wielding tin cans, it's shielders and the better cav, depending on the map. The class that has been nerfed most is the two handed users. Therefore the argument that lots of shooting is needed to stop 2 handers reigning supreme no longer applies. Once again though, this isn't a moan on behalf of 2h fighters (I am no longer one) it's a complaint that there is just too much shooting and it loses the feel it should have; as 2h or polearm infantry you have to cower behind buildings, as shield infantry you have to keep your shield up all the time as you slowly advance under fire and as cavalry you have to ride around the edge of the map staying out of range.

[Nemeth]

As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.

You obviously didn't undertand my post. Try read it again. I'm talking about contributing to the team, not KDR. I said ranged is not as dangerous as equially skilled melee. If dangerous in your dictionary means KDR, that's your problem, not mine.

[Gnjus]

You're almost forced to go range these days, really.

It has been like that since the early beta days and it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.

[Jambi]

If Crpg turns into something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

i wont mind
If chadz could add the grappling hook, it be awesomesauce! 

[Gorath]

If Crpg turns into something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

i wont mind
If chadz could add the grappling hook, it be awesomesauce! 

So you won't mind that the only game to have a good melee combat system is killed by the playerbase's desire to gay it up with ranged spam rather than fight?

Seriously, the state of the game and the players as it pertains to the ranged crap is truly sad.