NERF INFANTRY

[Adamar]

Since you run like the wind and can run and shoot for an eternity stunning chasers along the way you're basically untouchable by a major part of the playerbase.

No, archers can't afford athlectics and we do run out of arrows prety quickly in this mod.

I tried it, too. Started to score one kill after another with a STF character. Like single player or any other game: aim, click, profit. 

You must be prety good since the rest of us have to click first then aim.

Im getting sick of this, stop calling for an archery nerf! The score board still favours inf and cav, stop trying to set your difficulty even lower.

[Araxiel]

People who wants an archery buff is trying to break the mod.

[MrShine]

Meow, being an archer is not easy, I know that from tons of playing time as archer. Your awareness need to be even better than what you need as infantry I'll admit. However, it's not the playability that should decide the power of the class. Archery should be hard to play to keep the amount of ranged at an acceptable level. Now, at least when it comes to archers with +3 bow and +3 arrows, they have it too easy. With 18/21 or 18/24 builds there's almost no downside to being an archer since you can 2-4 shoot different armored infantry and run like the wind. The only weak part is your melee capability (which you don't need with 7-8 athletics and low armor) and health. Since you run like the wind and can run and shoot for an eternity stunning chasers along the way you're basically untouchable by a major part of the playerbase. The damage of archers ain't a bad thing, but the combined forces of high athletics and still having massive damage is.

Either bows should be weaker for only 9-10 PD builds to 2-4 shot infantry, because they would be at a disadvantage at kiting and running away, or the bows/quivers should be heavier. As of now the archers can have their cake and eat it too which makes it too appealing to players. I would myself prefer a heavy weight increase on bows and/or arrows (maybe arrows to make 1 stack + a good melee backup a good alternative to keep the kiting down)

Archery needs to be a bit harder. As of now it's too good making it appealing to too many, making archers massively overused (small servers, I'm looking at you)

Some points of clarification.

- I'm not sure what archers you're fighting with 18/24 builds that can run like the wind... at level 30 an 18/24 build has 3 athletics, 0 PS, and 0 IF so they're sitting at 53 hp. 

-18/21 archers will have 7 athletics yes, but they have 3 extra points to put into either PS or IF.  Both of those totals are pretty pathetic, so again you're stuck with an archer that will be toast in most melee conflicts and will be dying in 1-2 melee hits.  7 athletics is high but not gamebreaking... besides don't you EU dudes love those agility builds?  You can build a completely viable melee build with 8 athletics no problem... 15/24, 18/24, 15/27 are all effective archer huntin' builds that can perform well in melee.

-Your suggestion that bows should be weaker unless they get to 9 or 10 PD is ridiculous and backed without any knowledge about archers; a 10 PD build is impossible for a level 30 archer (most wpf you can get is 138, which isn't enough to get use out of that 10th PD point), and a 9 PD build is fucking awful.

Once again, people seem to be afraid of all the 10 athletics, 10 PD archers running around.

[Kafein]

You still assume though that hitting stuff is anywhere near as easy as it is in melee, which it is not.

This thread is obviously not meant seriously and the balancing of the game should be build around melee, I agree with that - no doubt.

Still if I could I would force all of the ranged haters to play an archer for a full generation.
Then judge.

Trying to make it look like hitting people with a bow/xbow/throwing is as easy as hitting them with melee weapons at melee range is just ridiculous.

I am sure Tzar will jump in here and make sure you all know I used high str builds but for real, after 9 gens of pure melee always between 30str/9agi and 18str/21agi chars I can say that melee is easier but still what the game is focused around.

I understand people get pissed if they get headshot and insta die because it is not a series of blows and them failing to block those but a way different kind of skillset + luck that makes it possible.
People who say ranged should go back to playing CS either never played CS or never played an archer for more than five minutes.
This is not anywhere close to a shooter and you are mainly a support class like pikers and horse archers.
Good players will still be okish with them but getting anywhere close to inf or cav scores is just way way harder than as inf or cav.

The rage factor for the people you hit is just way bigger

The problem is not the power of one archer per se. It is how dull the game can become when the amount of shit flying in the air is above a certain treshold.

1) People playing ranged push other people on the same server to do the same. Melee aren't able to retaliate to range, and when all you do is getting shot, hiding and chasing runners, the game is't really a game anymore. It is only normal to chose a build you can actually play with.
2) As Joker said, archers and range in general are always able to use their firepower to the full potential, because their (ranged) teammates hardly ever get in the way. This is why 1 vs 4 melee fights are sometimes won by the hero, but never 1 vs 4 ranged fights. This has to be taken into account.


The above points are independant of the skill of ranged involved. I personally am a terrible archer, but I do okay as 15/24 xbow sniper. That doesn't mean anything and the debate could progress if some people stopped with the ad hominem argument.

[Vibe]

Blah, this would've been good if the OP was serious

[TheNeX]

I tried it, too. Started to score one kill after another with a STF character. Like single player or any other game: aim, click, profit. 

Sure.

STF = 10k

Meaning you start with Horn + Barbed (at best) not loomed, which means kill after kill is not gonna happen.

[Wookimonsta]

I agree, inmy old friendtries are super OP. They can use so many different weapons. I am on a horse with a lance and suddenly there is inmy old friendtries with pikes wtf?
Also, inmy old friendtries can dodge my lance wtf?

[Zerran]

No, archers can't afford athlectics

wut. Then explain to me, good sir, how archers regularly can outrun even melee chars with 6 ath and medium armor if they can't afford athletics?

we do run out of arrows prety quickly in this mod.

1 stack of unloomed bodkins = 15 arrows. Round limit is generally 6 minutes. This means for a round that draws out, if you spawn at the very beginning of the round with 1 stack of bodkins, you can fire an arrow once every 24 seconds and just run out of arrows at the very end. This is the worst possible scenario for running out of arrows.

More average scenario: 2 stacks of unloomed bodkins = 30 arrows. 4 minute round, and you spawn in at the start of the round. With this scenario you can fire an arrow every 8 seconds and just run out as the round ends. The only way you're going to hit that is if you spam fire nonstop.

[Cup1d]

wut. Then explain to me, good sir, how archers regularly can outrun even melee chars with 6 ath and medium armor if they can't afford athletics?

1 stack of unloomed bodkins = 15 arrows. Round limit is generally 6 minutes. This means for a round that draws out, if you spawn at the very beginning of the round with 1 stack of bodkins, you can fire an arrow once every 24 seconds and just run out of arrows at the very end. This is the worst possible scenario for running out of arrows.

More average scenario: 2 stacks of unloomed bodkins = 30 arrows. 4 minute round, and you spawn in at the start of the round. With this scenario you can fire an arrow every 8 seconds and just run out as the round ends. The only way you're going to hit that is if you spam fire nonstop.

The most epic post ever

Every smart horseman can kill half of your team for 24 seconds. And only this mode have heavy AND fast horses from wet fantasy. (you do not have this crazy loomed horses  bonuses in native)
Every good 2H or polearmer can kill other half of your team for same 24 seconds. Say thanks to balance team, that you can have 80+ body armor and 8-9 athletics at same time.

Why your «melee only» servers are always empty?

(click to show/hide)

Because it's too boring to die by the hands of 2-3 pure 2handers with 5-20 ping?

[Mlekce]

i tried and it is very hard. I just can't hit anything. Since i tried to be archer i don't hate them like i used to. Infrantery is the easiest class.

[cmp]

Easiest to play and hardest to master.

[Gurnisson]

No, archers can't afford athlectics

 

- I'm not sure what archers you're fighting with 18/24 builds that can run like the wind... at level 30 an 18/24 build has 3 athletics, 0 PS, and 0 IF so they're sitting at 53 hp.

Not talking of level 30 when it comes to 18/24 build.

-18/21 archers will have 7 athletics yes, but they have 3 extra points to put into either PS or IF.  Both of those totals are pretty pathetic, so again you're stuck with an archer that will be toast in most melee conflicts and will be dying in 1-2 melee hits.  7 athletics is high but not gamebreaking... besides don't you EU dudes love those agility builds?  You can build a completely viable melee build with 8 athletics no problem... 15/24, 18/24, 15/27 are all effective archer huntin' builds that can perform well in melee.

That build would have to have low armor to catch up to the archer(s). With 15/27 build or whatever you'll be crushed like an ant by the projectiles. How native balanced out the running archer was that all infantry had a chance to get a good shield + melee weapon + throwing for base cash. Throwing is devastating to archers but because of the slot changes and changing to throwing it's only viable for 1H/shield or dedicated throwers nowadays. No 2H/shield/2 stacks of throwing that I used back in the day

-Your suggestion that bows should be weaker unless they get to 9 or 10 PD is ridiculous and backed without any knowledge about archers; a 10 PD build is impossible for a level 30 archer (most wpf you can get is 138, which isn't enough to get use out of that 10th PD point), and a 9 PD build is fucking awful.

8-9 PD, sorry. No knowledge about archers? I've been archer for most of my native play and crpg play and I even have an archer alt now. I have played tons of archery and it's too viable making it appealing for too many. I prefer the suggestion of having a high weight increase on quivers making a good 1-slot weapon backup more appealing than having two quivers. Also, if the damage had been lowered for only 8-9 PD archers to do the massive damage archery does nowadays, the accuracy should've been boosted for sure. Archers don't need worse accuracy, that only reduces the skill factor and increases the luck factor. However, the archers should have to choose between good kiting abilities and extreme damage instead of getting both like now to make it less appealing but still strong.

Once again, people seem to be afraid of all the 10 athletics, 10 PD archers running around.

No, the average build is too viable giving you good kiting abilities and extreme damage at the same time (+3 bows and arrows 2-3 shoots almost all infantry with 6 PD). Archery should be strong, but not give you all options with the same build. That will lead to a lot of people going archer (again) which is the real problem. Archers could've had good kiting abilities and great damage like now if it wouldn't lead to the amount rapidly increase. The small servers have already got the plague, should the big ones get it too?

[Zerran]

The most epic post ever

Every smart horseman can kill half of your team for 24 seconds. And only this mode have heavy AND fast horses from wet fantasy. (you do not have this crazy loomed horses  bonuses in native)
Every good 2H or polearmer can kill other half of your team for same 24 seconds. Say thanks to balance team, that you can have 80+ body armor and 8-9 athletics at same time.

Why your «melee only» servers are always empty?

(click to show/hide)

Because it's too boring to die by the hands of 2-3 pure 2handers with 5-20 ping?

As I said, that was the worst case scenario possible (As in it is literally impossible to have a scenario where you have more of an opportunity to run out of arrows). Additionally that's only if you start firing from the very beginning of the round, and every tick at the dot, fire again.
How many pure archers actually carry 1 stack of unloomed bodkins and start firing the moment they spawn? My average case scenario was every 8 seconds, and even that was once again firing the first shot at the 6:00 left mark. As I've said, I have played as an archer for a short time, and despite carrying 1 stack of arrows, I don't think I ever ran out.

Also, nice exaggeration on the melee stats. 8-9 ath with full plate is a surefire way to fail horribly. Most melee have around 45-55 body armor and 4-6 ath. Most matches last 3-4 minutes anyway so I somehow doubt "every good melee" and "every good cav" can kill half the team in 24 seconds. Were that the case matches would be over in less than a minute on a regular basis.

I have never said, nor will I ever say, that ranged should be removed from the game. It adds a very good tactical element to fights. The main purpose of that post was merely to point out flaws in his argument, not to say that ranged needs to be removed. The only nerf I think ranged needs is to have shotgunning removed or weakened, and to disallow ranged from being able to run from medium ath, medium armor inf.

The only thing that bothers me about ranged as it is currently, is that archers don't need ANY support. Due to their high speed and high acceleration, they can kite 90% of melee indefinitely until either they decide to fight in melee, do something really foolish, or an admin tells them they need to stop running. Carrying a shield doesn't even work well, since due to shotgunning, as soon as melee pulls out their weapon, they get shot for most of their health, and due to kiting because blocking with a shield every time the archer turns around slows you to a crawl.

[Leshma]

Easiest to play and hardest to master.

You can say that for every class out there. Every class is easy to play. Get on horse and press X, you'll certainly kill some noobs like you who are infantry players. Pick melee weapon and spam like retard, you will kill people with similar skill who don't spam but first skilled opponent will annihilate you. Pick Xbow and shoot in crowd, you'll probably hurt/kill someone.

You can't master any class in c-rpg so we can say it's equally hardest to master all of them. To master melee combat you would have to chamber block perfectly every time, to have absolutely perfect timing and to hit the head every time. No one can do that, not even the best melee fighters we have in this mod. To be perfect xbowmen you'll have to hit heads all the time, no one can do that. Same goes for cav, there are some plenty epic cav but they make mistakes all the time.

Archery isn't any easier nor harder to master than any other class.

[Dravic]

I've suggested that few times.

Once again - give me your feedback on this idea, please:

Remove stun from arrows as they hit enemy.

For one patch give us such a "feature".

If there will still be too much so-called "ranged spam" (even though I prefer to call it "rain of death), then proceed to the next step.
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Make weight of arrows quivers higher by +3 to each type of arrows.
Change weight of arrows so it looks like this:

Arrows - lightest
Barbed - heavier
Tatar - heavier
Bodkin - heaviest

Compared to reversed order as of today. At the moment for maximum kiting ability you have to get best arrows... Wrong.

For one patch give us all above features.

If there will still be too much so-called "ranged spam" (even though I prefer to call it "rain of death), then proceed to the next step.
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Delete the game from your harddisk.