archery..

[Rumblood]

It is about people saying that they should not adapt to fight a certain playstyle, so they want the other playstyle nerfed out of existence instead.

[Kafein]

Archers can't use any armor with higher rating than 20 if they want their whole wpp to be active, can't wear better gloves, can't wear head armor, limited boot choice...

On top of that they can't use many weapons because of slot system. Actually they can but in that case they don't have much arrows to shoot. Therefore most use crappy 0 slot weapons with little or no PS due to a fact that archery unlike xbows has special skill where you need to put points.

Damage they deal is good only if they have everything loomed and "victim" is moving towards them. It's not archery that deals such huge damage in some cases, it's speed bonus. Same goes for xbows, cav, throwing and melee. They all profit from speed bonus.

Now tell me that archery isn't gimped atm, will all these facts I've written here.

They are gimped in some specific way that makes fighting archers an unnecessary annoyance. It could be much more fun if archers weren't forced to be peasants totally dedicated to their bow and nothing else like some kind of asian kid that trained during 8 years to play harmonica with his feet. Why isn't archery wpf like melee wpf ? That is, with extremely diminishing returns from stacking it. Why are archers forced to wear peasant clothes ? Why is PD considered useless above 6, 5 or even 4 for most people ? All in all, the central problem is that archery depends too much on wpf. If the wpf curve was sharpened in a way that gives the advantage to hybrid and medium-armored archers (what they should all be in the first place), then you'd see a lot less complaints from people that are sick of chasing flies with bazookas.

[zagibu]

I am more for an archery buff if those "supporters" keep it up with the their current quality of argumentation.

I wouldn't be surprised. You have already proven that you are a great mod balancer, so this archery buff would perfectly fit your current track record. Maybe also buff cav while you're at it?

[Leshma]

I can shoot okay-ish in black armor and co on my archer, use a hornbow + 2 stacks of arrow and a top tier 1 hander.

You can cheat crosshair, you can shoot with low wpf but your damage will suffer a lot.

[Bulzur]

Well who should adapt to who?

Buff swashbuckler !

No.. wait... wrong topic. Nerf archery !

It doesn't matter that they get one hitted by 1h cav, by lance cav, and most of the times by triple heirloomed sniper xbow, the first two due to wearing crappy headgear, and the other one depending on luck.
It doesn't matter that the amount of ammo is limited, and that it's a pain to pick up different kind of ammos since it makes you drop your melee weapon, or loose all ammo.
It doesn't matter that one single quiver of tatar arrows weights twice as much as a bastard sword.
It doesn't matter that arrows sometimes just go through the target, for unknown reasons. (hitboxes)
It doesn't matter that it's THE long range weapon that you can effectively dodge at long range, due to a splendid missile curve, unlike the bolts.
It doesn't matter that any person with a melee weapon can "auto-kick" an enemy archer when closing in, resulting in a free melee hit.
It doesn't matter that archery is one of the only class where max wpf is needed to be viable, whereas i can have 100 in 1h and still own.

What matters is that they can kill my arabian horse in 4 shots, even when i'm trying to run away after having killed two of them. The fact that i'm still full health doesn't compensate my wounded heart after hearing the last mourn of my honorable horse.
What matters is that they sometimes get lucky and hit me when i'm fighting their melee teammates, resulting in me being stunned and their ally finishing me off. The fact that they need to aim very well, and can still hit their ally in such situation is irrelevant.
What matters is that they're all AGI whore who run away, just because they can and have 8-9 athletics. The fact that they have no IF nor PS is no excuse, take out your 0 slot hammer and fight my maul.
What matters is that i laugh when i get shot and loose 5% of my heath, when the next shot from the same archer makes me loose a total of 40%, when both are body shots. It's not that i got lucky first time, only getting 5% damage, it's that i got so unlucky the second time.
What matters is that i never lowered myself to play as an archer, and don't want others to.*



If i miss something, please point it to me. 

[MrShine]

They are gimped in some specific way that makes fighting archers an unnecessary annoyance. It could be much more fun if archers weren't forced to be peasants totally dedicated to their bow and nothing else like some kind of asian kid that trained during 8 years to play harmonica with his feet. Why isn't archery wpf like melee wpf ? That is, with extremely diminishing returns from stacking it. Why are archers forced to wear peasant clothes ? Why is PD considered useless above 6, 5 or even 4 for most people ? All in all, the central problem is that archery depends too much on wpf. If the wpf curve was sharpened in a way that gives the advantage to hybrid and medium-armored archers (what they should all be in the first place), then you'd see a lot less complaints from people that are sick of chasing flies with bazookas.

So now you want to buff archers? 

You can't have it both ways - archers are at the point they are because they've been nerfed to where they have to sacrifice a ton in order to be viable.  If you make them easier to hybrid people will continue to go full archer (and be stronger), there will just be more part-time archers.

Really what it sounds like to me is you want archers who don't play like archers...I think you may be playing the wrong game.

I wouldn't be surprised. You have already proven that you are a great mod balancer, so this archery buff would perfectly fit your current track record. Maybe also buff cav while you're at it?

You know,I gave a +1 to some of your earlier posts because I thought they were so clearly exaggerated and absurd you had to be trolling.  Now I'm not so sure.

[Leshma]

What are part time archers? Players who shoot until someone gets near and then don't run for 5 minutes, but fight them with their weapon (which is supposed to be decent)!

Seems to me that only definition of archery by you is kiting and running.

Yes, I want to buff archer's melee side. Not because I want to see them fighting instead of shooting, I just don't like cowards like Legio archers for example who don't even have any melee weapon in their inventory...

[Ronin]

So now you want to buff archers? 

You can't have it both ways - archers are at the point they are because they've been nerfed to where they have to sacrifice a ton in order to be viable.  If you make them easier to hybrid people will continue to go full archer (and be stronger), there will just be more part-time archers.

Really what it sounds like to me is you want archers who don't play like archers...I think you may be playing the wrong game.

I think the problem here is, archers have crappy melee. But they can run fast. Because they can run fast, they make their distance and continue to shoot. When the enemy comes near, they go run away and repeat the same. That's what drives people mad. My suggestion would be:
Buff:
... their melee capabilities. Not as a pure melee, but make them decent.
Nerf:
...their running speed. Increase the weight of all bows to compensate their high agility/athletics.

So there will be no reason for them to shoot, run, shoot, run, shoot, run.

[Cup1d]

Make all bows 1slot. Double quantity of arrows in quiver, double weight of quiver and make all quivers 2slot. This way you can limit overall quantity of arrows for pure runnin archers\ha (bow and arrows only) and leave place for decent backup weapon. So archer will have chance to participate in melee too.

Anyway, the root of «runchers» problem is slot system, and all this «running» was predicted weeks before slot system was implemented.

[Cup1d]

Or just limit amount of quivers by 2, and make bows 1slot.

[Ronin]

Make all bows 1slot. Double quantity of arrows in quiver, double weight of quiver and make all quivers 2slot. This way you can limit overall quantity of arrows for pure runnin archers\ha (bow and arrows only) and leave place for decent backup weapon. So archer will have chance to participate in melee too.

Anyway, the root of «runchers» problem is slot system, and all this «running» was predicted weeks before slot system was implemented.

It's more because of 0 ps and 1 wpf in melee I think and the possibility of running away. But yes that has an effect too.

[Cup1d]

It's more because of 0 ps and 1 wpf in melee I think and the possibility of running away. But yes that has an effect too.

It's more because you can have 6PS, but this do not make 0 slot weapons viable choice.

[rufio]

ive decided to make my alt an archer ''again'' after this gen, and then buy fraps, and proceed with that movie i was boasting to make early in this thread. then you will c me rufio on my archer alt trolling crpg eazymod (0 archerlooms)

[MrShine]

ive decided to make my alt an archer ''again'' after this gen, and then buy fraps, and proceed with that movie i was boasting to make early in this thread. then you will c me rufio on my archer alt trolling crpg eazymod (0 archerlooms)

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[Kafein]

So now you want to buff archers? 

Not a general buff. They are globally balanced but IMO aren't the right way, like ninja cavalry (but that's not what this thread is about).

You can't have it both ways - archers are at the point they are because they've been nerfed to where they have to sacrifice a ton in order to be viable.  If you make them easier to hybrid people will continue to go full archer (and be stronger), there will just be more part-time archers.

Archery depends too heavily on wpf. What I want is 100 effective wpf archers that would only be marginally less accurate and fast compared 160 wpf archers. Diminishing returns is where it's at. This would :

- Reduce the need of going pure archery.
- Reduce the need of using peasant armor

Both would be very good thing for archers. If 100 effective wpf is enough and going any higher doesn't really improve anything, why bother ? You are better wearing more armor and being able to kill people in melee. If what I wanted was implemented, full archers would be weaker than now and hybrid archers would be a lot stronger than now.

Really what it sounds like to me is you want archers who don't play like archers...I think you may be playing the wrong game.

No. Playing an archer isn't about hit & run. It actually is in cRPG currently because it's optimal for cRPG archers, but it shouldn't be like that. In cRPG the archers we got are peasants doing hunt as a sport, not soldiers facing death. True archers have a proper light melee weapon such as a 1h sword and wear medium armor because they die otherwise. They don't run, they fight. And their chances in melee aren't that bad at all.

I think cRPG corrupted your view of what an archer is so much that you forgot about the basics.

You know,I gave a +1 to some of your earlier posts because I thought they were so clearly exaggerated and absurd you had to be trolling.  Now I'm not so sure.

Exaggeration is a weapon like any other. I just wanted to get my point through.

Finally, and I know some people will disagree on that like if I was raping their grandfather in law, the speed and acceleration of nude/lightly armored characters is both unbalanced and unrealistic. Adding a fixed weight to the character's body would prevent people in cloth armor to be some sort of mix between Usain Bolt and a mosquito, partly fixing the running archer problem.