Author Topic: archery..  (Read 51085 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: archery..
« Reply #855 on: April 27, 2012, 11:24:37 pm »
+1
Exactly, you don't want archers to be strong as archers, you want them to be a melee oriented class that can shoot (we already have that -> crossbowmen & thrower hybrids).  As was mentioned before in this abortion of a thread the slot system was implemented so archers couldn't be as good in melee.  Go figure, people were butthurt about archers who could perform in melee.

This is more or less what I wanted to say, but you miss the subtlety : I don't want archers to be melee oriented. They have a bow and they are here to shoot, that's not the question. Their strongest characteristic as a soldier is the bow. I certainly don't want archers to be like 2h that take a crossbow as sidearm.

The slot system wasn't only directed at archers. Besides, it doesn't prevent them to use the weapon they should be using. It only prevents them to use those they should not. Like pikes, mauls or flamberges. I don't know whether that particular change affected the archer metagame that much tbh. There are plenty of other potential reasons, and it occured on a quite long timescale. The only thing I remember for sure is that in pre-upkeep cRPG, archers were OP due to wpf stacking through retirement, old archery animation, and being able to snipe across the map. Most archers didn't had to run at all.

In pretty much any multiplayer game ever that I can recall of the top of my head ranged class types tend to try to stay at range.. kiting isn't new and certainly isn't unique to cRPG.

Yes but it is still lame for the melee player. Melee vs melee combat is not constantly awesome, but it can't get as lame as melee vs kiting. That's why when I see this :

Well, to state the obvious, what is fun to you might not be fun to someone else.

I can't help thinking about something called irony. You can't get a full review of the issue without taking how asymmetrically lame kiting is for one of the players into account.

Offline Rumblood

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Re: archery..
« Reply #856 on: April 29, 2012, 01:38:33 am »
0
I can't help thinking about something called irony. You can't get a full review of the issue without taking how asymmetrically lame kiting is for one of the players into account.

And yet we don't see 1hand shielders making a 58 page post on lancer cavalry that they can never catch and that have an insurmountable weapon length advantage. Perhaps you feel that war is already lost, and 15 archery nerfs could easily lead to 16-20?
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: archery..
« Reply #857 on: April 29, 2012, 01:58:11 am »
+1
I'm sleepy. I wonder if archery would be easier if I drank more coffee. We should discuss archery tips in this thread, it might liven things up so we stop repeating what has already been said.

I like to shoot people. Shooting people is fun. I like it when the enemy falls to the floor dead, that makes me happy.

I like arrows.

I also like shooting at cav. Trying to shoot a horse that is coming straight at you is fun too.
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Offline Wraist

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Re: archery..
« Reply #858 on: April 29, 2012, 02:04:21 am »
0
And yet we don't see 1hand shielders making a 58 page post on lancer cavalry that they can never catch and that have an insurmountable weapon length advantage. Perhaps you feel that war is already lost, and 15 archery nerfs could easily lead to 16-20?

Most lancer cavalry suck to the point I could take them out with a scottish :)

Offline Havoco

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Re: archery..
« Reply #859 on: April 29, 2012, 05:12:09 am »
0
I'm sleepy. I wonder if archery would be easier if I drank more coffee. We should discuss archery tips in this thread, it might liven things up so we stop repeating what has already been said.

I like to shoot people. Shooting people is fun. I like it when the enemy falls to the floor dead, that makes me happy.

I like arrows.

I also like shooting at cav. Trying to shoot a horse that is coming straight at you is fun too.

Protip #1 always take the shot

Yes but it is still lame for the melee player. Melee vs melee combat is not constantly awesome, but it can't get as lame as melee vs kiting. That's why when I see this :

I can't help thinking about something called irony. You can't get a full review of the issue without taking how asymmetrically lame kiting is for one of the players into account.
Well, the game can't be perfect. If u want archers to stop kiting you'd have to take out the slot system or increase bow and arrow weight. If the latter happens then youd basically have to take out archery altogether because archer would simply be nerfed into submission and not be a viable class.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:14:29 am by Havoco »
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Offline Wraist

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Re: archery..
« Reply #860 on: April 29, 2012, 06:24:03 am »
0
If u want archers to stop kiting you'd have to take out the slot system
Elaborate
Quote
or increase bow and arrow weight. If the latter happens then youd basically have to take out archery altogether because archer would simply be nerfed into submission and not be a viable class.
How so?

Offline Havoco

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Re: archery..
« Reply #861 on: April 29, 2012, 07:46:49 am »
0
Elaborate

Well, before the slot system was introduced I used a rus bow, 2 bodkin quivers, and an elegant poleaxe. I loved this build but I wasn't able to use it after the slot system. Now I know there are people that will still go pure archer if slot system was taken out, but with the freedom of being able to have a 2 slot bow and a weapon that isnt a garbage 0 slot weapon may give archers the tendency to engage in melee.

Btw I doubt you'd find any archer using just one quiver in this game b/c the number of arrows per quiver isn't large enough to comepensate for having to take 1-2 slots just for the bow.

How so?

Well with the factors currently for archers in crpg, of u take out their running speed through increased weight the only real chance the archer would have is to shoot from a hill at targets until the enemy infantry gets close to them. At that point There isn't any other thing to do for the archer other than to fight in melee (unless the archer has really high ath and/or the pursuer has low ath and high weight.)

How many kills would the archer get in this time?
Not many. Not even the best archer is accurate 100 percent of the time. And with the current reload speed and missile speed, archers would get maybe 6-8 arrows off from max effective range to melee range( assuming the enemy was charging straight at them.)

But what gets me is that any good melee player knows how to evade arrows. It isn't hard in a 1v1 situation. Even in a 2v1 situation. Granted archers may still hit u, but its a lot harder for them to hit u if u evade.





« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 08:58:41 am by Havoco »
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Offline Wraist

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Re: archery..
« Reply #862 on: April 29, 2012, 11:17:00 am »
0
Well, before the slot system was introduced I used a rus bow, 2 bodkin quivers, and an elegant poleaxe. I loved this build but I wasn't able to use it after the slot system. Now I know there are people that will still go pure archer if slot system was taken out, but with the freedom of being able to have a 2 slot bow and a weapon that isnt a garbage 0 slot weapon may give archers the tendency to engage in melee.

Btw I doubt you'd find any archer using just one quiver in this game b/c the number of arrows per quiver isn't large enough to comepensate for having to take 1-2 slots just for the bow.

A rus, bodkins and poleaxe doesn't seem excessive to you? I could see running away if you're a strength archer, but if you're an agi archer, a 1slot bow, two quivers and you still have room for a 1her, the mace or a few polearms.

Quote
How many kills would the archer get in this time?
Not many. Not even the best archer is accurate 100 percent of the time. And with the current reload speed and missile speed, archers would get maybe 6-8 arrows off from max effective range to melee range( assuming the enemy was charging straight at them.)

Everybody's so uptight about kills for some reason  and that's why archers piss me the fuck off. I've noticed that wearing heavy armor makes me die from arrows less. While the cause is that I am wearing heavy armor, the reason is that archers target me much less, and in heavy armor, I should be more of a primary target since I could do shit like break lines, make somebody glance and get a lucky hit [if I absolutely suck], etc. I admit that I shot at peasants if I couldn't get a clear shot at a heavy [although to be fair, I have a very unhealthy fear of peasants :(, maybe that's why I like dressing as one?]

Quote
But what gets me is that any good melee player knows how to evade arrows. It isn't hard in a 1v1 situation. Even in a 2v1 situation. Granted archers may still hit u, but its a lot harder for them to hit u if u evade.

For evasion, you could just do the sensible thing and shoot into melee; I've noticed that I either missed completely or hit the enemy significantly more than I hit an ally, and only did so when they did something significantly different from their usual pattern, which makes me wonder why friendlies hit me all the time [Compared to the times I see an enemy staggered from an arrow]. I forgot what I did when somebody was trying to evade me, I probably shot at their average position once and then charged them [One advantage about hybrids is that you're still decent at both things, so I spent half of level 30 pretending to be pure melee].

Then again, I sucked at aiming, until I started using a tatar (Testing to see how fucked I would be at archery if I used my thrower build, then I got carried away with seeing why people rarely went to 9PD... and probably would've done better if I played like I intended to do or actually maximized my build). Playing as an archer for a gen didn't make me appreciate the class for its difficulties, but instead, made me hate them for forcing me to archer duels. Oh and xbowers.

One thing that I don't get is why is there this topic, but not one about xbows? Fuck, xbowers [deleted a lot of rage filled experiences :(]

Hell, an archer generally spends maybe 3ish+ points in WM, which meleers would typically spend differently, so I could kindof see the get a shield argument [although I guess the reverse would be I have to get a shield to approach you so pull out your fucking weapon when I get there].

I'm starting to rage about xbows now...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 11:18:24 am by Wraist »

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: archery..
« Reply #863 on: April 29, 2012, 12:34:32 pm »
0
I'm sleepy. I wonder if archery would be easier if I drank more coffee.

Americans talking about coffee?

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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: archery..
« Reply #864 on: April 29, 2012, 01:34:01 pm »
-1
Well with the factors currently for archers in crpg, of u take out their running speed through increased weight the only real chance the archer would have is to shoot from a hill at targets until the enemy infantry gets close to them. At that point There isn't any other thing to do for the archer other than to fight in melee (unless the archer has really high ath and/or the pursuer has low ath and high weight.)

How many kills would the archer get in this time?
Not many. Not even the best archer is accurate 100 percent of the time. And with the current reload speed and missile speed, archers would get maybe 6-8 arrows off from max effective range to melee range( assuming the enemy was charging straight at them.)

But what gets me is that any good melee player knows how to evade arrows. It isn't hard in a 1v1 situation. Even in a 2v1 situation. Granted archers may still hit u, but its a lot harder for them to hit u if u evade.
Well, arrows would need a speed increase to make insane random turning not that insanely effective I guess, but only if devs could change the arrow arch to still be the same.
Considering that I never run from melee on my archer alt and that I often use my entire quiver (use a oneslot tatar bow, a tatar quiver, and a dadao) I personally don't think you should be afraid of not being able to shoot many arrows, 'cuss you often will be, just stick near a small group of melee, but never the actual blob, and unless your small group is heavily outnumbered draw your melee weapon and attempt to help your teammates (if you are outnumbered badly then run like a bitch while the enemies and allies fight and try to find a new group of people to stay near), and if you're the last guy alive 'cept for a few scattered players then yeah, you're gonna get caught, which is good.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Kafein

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Re: archery..
« Reply #865 on: April 30, 2012, 12:18:08 am »
0
And yet we don't see 1hand shielders making a 58 page post on lancer cavalry that they can never catch and that have an insurmountable weapon length advantage. Perhaps you feel that war is already lost, and 15 archery nerfs could easily lead to 16-20?

You are making things easier pointing out the 1h vs lancer thing. There are few threads about that simply because that one is far from being one sided. Although the lancer has a range advantage, he lacks maneuverability to be sure to hit a footman. And in this case since any melee cav is forced to come up close to deal damage unlike ranged classes by definition, not hitting means there is a chance you are hit yourself. As a shielder you can block a lance thrust, or you can chamberblock it and attack the horse or rider. You can also dodge a couched lance and kill the horse at the same time.

Offline Crazywolfman

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Re: archery..
« Reply #866 on: May 03, 2012, 02:48:30 am »
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I know everything's probably been said already, but I just want to throw my opinion into the mixing pot anyway. It's cathartic if anything. Anyway, I started playing a little while back as an archer and went for several hours before getting a single kill with a bow. I might add that I'd got a fair lot with a club, and even more with a pitchfork, even though I used them a lot less. Assuming it's just one of those cases where archery only gets remotely useful when you get better gear and skills (fair enough) I figured I'd wait it out and see how it goes when I reach a higher level. Since getting a longbow, bodkins and some 140 points into archery I've concluded that in spite of comments from irate two-handed types archery really never gets good.

All in all, the damage isn't my main gripe though. Instead it's largely about the accuracy. In any encounter with melee weapons, usually the better player wins, but with archery it's all about the lucky shot. By the time you have a bow which is physically capable of killing even peasants the aiming reticule is so obsenely large that it's as good as rolling dice to see what happens. No matter how well I position myself, how accurately I target enemies, or how well I lead shots and compensate for range, it's all a huge waste of time because fundamentally any hits I get are 'lucky shots'. On the other side of the coin, doesn't it bug players on the recieving end that exactly no skill was required to put that arrow into their head? Except at close ranges dodging shots is pretty pointless too. Walking in a perfectly straight line gives the same chance of getting hit as dodging around or moving irratically. Of course, don't get me wrong, damage is always a factor, but even with damage as it is, if I could have a realistic hope in hell of headshotting someone intentionally that'd change everything.

So yeah, overall archers struggle to hit targets consistently due to the weapon's inaccuracy, are especially poor against moving targets, and are very, very bad against armour. They are good against lightly armoured, stationary targets. Therefore, they are good against peasants, evenly matched against other archers, a little bit outmatched by horse archers (unless you're in good cover, which more than evens things up), and abysmal against everything else. My question therefore is, 'what's the point at all'? If archers just fight out their own private battle and have no influence on anything else besides the occassional stagger (if you're reckless enough to fire into a melee which includes friendly troops - I'll roll some dice to see who gets hit), then why even have an archer class?

Instead wouldn't improved archery develop a situation where teamplay is encouraged between classes? By making archers better than useless it would mean that seeking shelter behind a buddy's shield until you close the gap and give them hell is sensible, shield walls would be functional and using siege shields wouldn't be a waste of slots. It would also mean that cover would become important, predicting and dodging shots would be a useful skill and overall a castle would become more than a decorative piece of level design. I've occassionally seen good stuff happen of course, like when four guys were battering at a door and I fired at them from an upper level, two immediately shielded the others which meant I couldn't do a thing to stop them. Simple, coordinated teamwork. Even though I got killed horrifically it still felt like their minor act of badassery was rewarded. I just want more stuff like that in the game, and less of everyone milling around trying to Rambo their way to the top of the leaderboard.

Dammit, I shouldn't care about this, I should really just quit whining and stop playing, but other aspects of CRPG are so good that I genuinely want it to improve.

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: archery..
« Reply #867 on: May 03, 2012, 04:38:24 pm »
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Its easy to get 30+ kills on  siege as archer but saying that archery is just luck based is just herpderp,  get wpf and dont  build hybridshit. everything undr 160 wpf is quit useless if  you dont have 8+ pd. Archery is balanced.atm.


Offline Crazywolfman

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Re: archery..
« Reply #868 on: May 03, 2012, 06:00:01 pm »
+1
Anyone can get 30+ kills if they're on a server long enough so that's not exactly a measure of anything. Compared to two-handers the archers will still be way down in the leaderboards though. As for 'hybridshit', I never even hinted that was the case, I've gone pure longbowman with 6 Power Draw and everything else into Weapon Master and archery. Even with no points in melee it's easier for me to just pick up an axe off the floor and go kill people than it is to try and shoot them.

On the other hand, if you reckon it's just a matter of throwing more points into archery then OK, I'll reserve judgement until I'm level 30 then, though I don't suspect anything will change. No offense, but your avatar has a trollface on it. Not sure how I should take that. :D

Offline Cup1d

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Re: archery..
« Reply #869 on: May 04, 2012, 08:07:36 am »
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Arrowblood mean 30 kills on one map. It's quite possible with good position, good aim, good gear and bit of luck.

Anyway, if you expecting same effectivity as in Native, you choose wrong mode dude.
Also archer with loomed gear have more comfortable gameplay, so, if you do not have any looms your archer experience can be very dissapointing.