New ranged change

[Joker86]

Think everyone knows that, no?

That it is my bottom line or concerning the content?

[Vibe]

That it is my bottom line or concerning the content?

The content aka easier gameplay as archer.

[Overdriven]

Sorry, but I disagree.

I think in no way you can compare footwork, manual blocking and attacking to aiming above, leading a target and releasing the LMB at the right time. Only the sheer amount of inputs by mouse and keyboard during melee exceeds the amount needed for archery by far, let alone the reflexes and the concentration needed to persist against good melee fighters. An archer duel with sidestepping is nothing compared to it.

And infantry is threatened by cavalry and archers at the beginning of the round, same like archers, with the small difference that at this point archers can already participate in combat, infantry can't. When the melee starts, infantry has to watch out for all three classes, infantry, cavalry and archers, while archers stay out of the melee and have only to be aware of archers and cavalry. And being in the central melee is the most dangerous place on the entire battlefield, there is no discussion about it. Only at the end of the round archers have to watch out for infantry, but even then latter first needs to walk up to them.


My bottom line: being infantry is much harder than being archer.

This was a misunderstanding, I meant cav in general, and especially light cavalry, as this is a class which is close to being sustainable with the upkeep budget.

I'm not talking about an archer duel. But they require completely different skill sets. If you are to blind to see that then so be it.

Archers have to watch for melee as well. Now that there is no roofcamping and long range archery is mostly luck based, it's very easy for melee to catch archers out. Take a shield and just work your way around towards them, it's perfectly manageable. It is the most dangerous, but that doesn't make it the most difficult. If you use some brains you can survive quite easily. The people it's most dangerous for are the ones who charge straight in and end up fighting multiple people because not enough of their team is with them. If you stick with your team properly and work with clan members or even friends, it reduces any form of danger drastically. But regardless, they require different skill sets and each has their own difficulties. But one is not particularly harder than the other to get a lot of kills and damage out put.

[Dezilagel]

An infantryman's life is not tougher. My hoplite has 0 trouble with ranged. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been killed by ranged in one full generation. My archer gets killed far more than ranged than that ever does. Furthermore, I have never once had a problem chasing down ranged. Usually if I give up the chase they just keep on running so they aren't an issue. It's about playing smart. But for some reason a 2h sword seems to render a lot of you meleer's plain stupid and you just charge in hacking and slashing away and expecting to come out of it alive.

I admit my 2h is more susceptible to ranged, but even then it was still an annoyance, most of my deaths came from melee without ranged every playing a part. But still, if you stuck with your team, avoided archers and dodged if you saw them aiming at you, you could avoid the vast majority of ranged fire.

Both types of play have individual challenges. Neither is easier or harder. You can spam both, but you can also be incredibly skilled at both. The majority of players are average in both classes, but I bet the best melee and the best archers took a similar amount of time to reach the highly skilled level. People have preferences and shouldn't be punished for those preferences. This applies for cav, melee and ranged.

Well, Overdriven it's pretty easy to see why you don't die from ranged too much.

1. Your hoplite guy runs around with a huscarl

2. You're a horrible duelist

What'd be weird is if you'd not die in melee the majority of times.

But I for one can say that even though I carry a shield and I basically just bugger off as soon as someone points a ranged weapon at me at range, I still take a lot of damage from ranged. Now with the latest patch I'm definitively taking less of it, and now it seems that only the good archers can reliably kill me before I can run away (which is a good thing imo).

Thing is, ranged is what tends to hit me first. Even though you might not notice it, even if we infantry don't die we still take a lot of damage. My goal during a pub match is usually to get into some good fights and have fun. Which is why you'll see me die less to ranged since if I'm taking heavy damage I'll just go "fuck it" and try to get into some decent fight at least hoping not to get arrowstunned to death.

EDIT: Oh but the best thing about the patch is of course going to be the market hysteria, as everyone tries to get hold of the new fotm bow before anyone realizes what the patch has done.

[[ptx]]

Basically, the idea is that people without extensive experience in both various ranged and melee classes should GTFO of balance discussions.

[Kafein]

Im pretty sure I havent bitched about anything. I did however say its too soon to know how this have affected game balance and that the ranged people will adapt or change class. I also dont think this has in any way made ranged more skill based. Its certianly harder to kill someone with body shots but on the other hand you can oneshot guys in the heaviest gear (which is silly for everything but the heaviest crossbows). Thing is because of game mechanics its more about luck then skill.

It wasn't really directed at you, sorry if you thought so :s

[bonekuukkeli]

Ranged tends to hit first? Really Mr. Einstein? Maybe that's what they are supposed to do? Or even this isn't ok for wannabe melee heroes?  But first hits are made from long range and those are not head-shots, so they deal next to nothing damage (which is bs).

I have been playing quite a lot of ranged and maybe that's why I know how to deal or avoid them. But I didn't have any problem with ranged even when they were roofcamping in unreachable places. Want solution? Get shield, throw something at those archers, go behind someone else with shield... can't do it because you want to be pure melee hero? Avoid that roof, problem solved. Now that archers are unable to camp in roofs, which is ok... they have to deal with horses and it's much more lethal for them. It's easy to dodge arrows as cav and wait till archer is distracted by melee or other ranged and then backstab (yes during my 16 gens I have been playing cav as well).

I don't understand why all those pure melee heroes think that they should be able to beat anything out of there without any support from others in situation, but still every other should need support or are marked as support for pure melee?

- It's easy to sidestep+slash that incoming horse in last moment, but as archer you need time to pull out shot (what means often it's already too late if cav/player catches you).

- As archer you lose your fighting potential when you run (even worse as xbow), as melee you can just keep running and swinging. Is it really that hard to stay at range, dodge first bolt and then charge at that xbower who needs craploads of time to reload? Yeah yeah that's for xbowers, but to beat archers you need tree or two or just go and kill something else. It's not like you should be able to beat quick archer in 1 vs 1 situation and open field (unlike you are thinking ofc.... you are true hero afterall, shields are for pussies)

It's sad that ranged need to be nerfed because melee is lacking skill. But I guess that's way it has to be when there's mostly Conan the Barbarian wannabe teenages playing this game and whining when they can't learn new things besides hack & slash. Often you see couple archers doing nice teamwork out there and that's what causes whining. Why you don't do same as melee with someone else? Ah yes *waaaaah!* you want to beat anyone anywhere, no matter how many there are against you. I know, it's fun to charge pack of archers and beat crap out of them (which often happens btw, just use your brain and think how they manage to do it!). I can give tip, they don't charge through that open field when ranged is watching.

I want challenge in this game and currently as melee (pure melee without shield actually), ranged is still least of my problems out there. Before patch and even more after. And and game feels boring as it is now. It doesn't feel any harder to play as melee when compared to ranged, it just has different skillset as told before. Anyone can learn to shoot accurately just like anyone can learn to block and finess reflexes to suit their playstyle. Only thing it needs is time and motivation. I often do really bad runs as melee but that's not because melee is hard, it's because I'm watching movie in background and my thinking isn't in game. Charging mindlessly tends to be suicide. Same goes when playing archers, you die without awareness. Maybe it's melee who should "deal with it" and learn to play instead demanding nerfing to everything else? How I can't see any decent melee whining here or didn't see them whining here before patch? Maybe they knew how to deal with situations, adapting to them.

I can already hear incoming whining about cavs, let's nerf them next to please you? Afterall, cav is easymode when compared to your superskillz melee yes? Just press W and left mousebutton, even less what archers need!

I feel that game was really nicely balanced before patch. Only "problem" was roofcamping as it was impossible to make sure that guys came down when they were last ones. Nerfing all ranged (xbows and throwing is total crap now) wasn't needed.

One suggestion would be to add total damage in scoreboard or give points for kill assists / horse kills so people would feel that they achieve something when they don't get killing blows. That would also show how much different playstyles actually help in combat. Or they need to make sure that arrows (other than bodkin) don't hurt heavy tincans much, but still do decent damage to leather using guys which would be quite nice. Then people always would have option to pick heavier armour if they face a lot of ranged and feel overwhelmed by it.

This wasn't pointed at any user, but generally to super melee wannabe heroes. *whine and rage protection activated*

[Kafein]

Ranged tend to say 'deal with it' to melee because my God will melee not shut the fuck up about it. Every patch ranged is nerfed, and every patch it is still not enough. There is always something wrong. That is why ranged think melee should just suck it up and 'deal with it'. Because melee is never happy. You can bet in another 3-4 months time there will be constant complaining about ranged once again, and trying to find 'solutions' to the ranged 'problem' that is plaguing our servers...

Rarely have I seen ranged calling for the nerfs of any other class. But for some reason melee constantly call for the nerfs of any form of ranged, cav, anything that can interrupt their uber ability to be superman. So yes, melee should just bloody deal with it because archers and ranged have had to deal with nerf after nerf after nerf, simply because melee will NEVER stop whining.

And during all this time melee called for nerfs, there was NO reason for those ?

Melee were just doing for the fun of it. Because of course, all melee are bizarre human beings that tend to whine 10x more than others, under the same (just and balanced of course) conditions. Is that what you really think ? That the actual players have completely different mindset that would make some whine more than others ?

Ranged tend to say 'deal with it' to melee because my God will melee not shut the fuck up about it.

Okay then. I hope you, like all the other ranged, will stand by your words and immediately stop whining, shut up and deal with the patch. Otherwise, you are no better than melee whiners before it.

[Overdriven]

1. Your hoplite guy runs around with a huscarl

2. You're a horrible duelist

Even with a lighter shield I didn't really have trouble.

Yes I am 

And during all this time melee called for nerfs, there was NO reason for those ?

Melee were just doing for the fun of it. Because of course, all melee are bizarre human beings that tend to whine 10x more than others, under the same (just and balanced of course) conditions. Is that what you really think ? That the actual players have completely different mindset that would make some whine more than others ?

Okay then. I hope you, like all the other ranged, will stand by your words and immediately stop whining, shut up and deal with the patch. Otherwise, you are no better than melee whiners before it.

There was a need for the nerf that came waaaay back in the jan patch with the animation changes ect. Then it was needed. Anything after has just been compensating for a problem that wasn't there. The cav nerfs, the HA nerfs, the throwing nerfs, the archery nerfs. All were nerfs that actually changed fuck all, because within a month or 2 melee was whining yet again. And that's the point, it just seems to us ranged that melee will not be happy until anything that can kill them other than other melee is nerfed into the ground. Melee can say 'deal with it' to ranged all you like, but the fact is melee will find something else to whine about very very soon. Probably cav again.

We've had to deal with a lot of nerfs. We have a right to whine about it considering it makes our gameplay a lot less enjoyable each time it happens. The difference is (which you don't seem to grasp), ranged complain about being nerfed, melee whine that things need nerfing.

The particularly stupid thing is that when a slight delay on the swing is introduced and 2h bitch and moan about it, it's reverted despite the fact that it is incredibly insignificant. But a huge damage nerf for ranged that seriously changes not just one class (the class for which it was intended), but multiple classes and nothing is done about it.

Devs should really just revert this change until they can actually think of something better.

[bonekuukkeli]

Real problem is that devs can't program better playing IQ for melee. Problem is between chair and monitor and that's hard to fix.

There's quite many melee players (without shield yay!) that can round after round cause huge problems for pack of ranged players. You just can ask how and why? Then there's melee that round after another takes same route over open field... and end up here in forums whining what to nerf next.

[justjr]

My bottom line is that I have 200 ping, and now I can't b effective and get kills with no class.
I have the right to kill people too, is in the constitution. 

Cav is so much fucked up and overpowered then any other class, so nerf them instead.

[Leshma]

From my brief after patch experience I must say that friendly archers were pussywhipped real hard.

Back in November 2011. while wearing armor with 71 BA I could take no more than 4 body shots from average archer. Right now, wearing light armor with I can sustain the same amount of damage, I can survive up to 4 arrows. Devs, thanks for that

Xbowmen being cunts like they truly are, right now are a little less dangerous than before. Thanks for that as well

Throwing was really strong before. I was dying to a single body hit from throwing axe in my light armor back in November 2011. Imho, throwing should always be gimped because it's pretty stupid way of fighting.

But cav... no matter are they lancers or back-slashers, are ruling the battlefield. Occasionally some really gifted 2H end up on top but most of the time it's 5 or 6 cavs having 200 kills combined...

It was sad to see that spam is still very viable and that most polearmers still abuse stupid polestagger. Also most 2H still abuse hiltslash. Same ol', same ol'...

[MrShine]

There was a need for the nerf that came waaaay back in the jan patch with the animation changes ect. Then it was needed. Anything after has just been compensating for a problem that wasn't there. The cav nerfs, the HA nerfs, the throwing nerfs, the archery nerfs. All were nerfs that actually changed fuck all, because within a month or 2 melee was whining yet again. And that's the point, it just seems to us ranged that melee will not be happy until anything that can kill them other than other melee is nerfed into the ground. Melee can say 'deal with it' to ranged all you like, but the fact is melee will find something else to whine about very very soon. Probably cav again.

I agree that this is probably the part that's most annoying for players who go ranged/archer.

Some of the major whines I see from melee users boiled down:
- Archers can hit them from range
- Multiple archers can 'gang up' on people from range, increasing their effectiveness
- 'Arrow-stun' in melee clusters

Time and time again I see players bitch about these three things, and no matter how many nerfs are introduced these issues will never be 'fixed' unless something fundamental is broken in the archer class that makes them cease to be archers at all.

So damage will be nerfed, but these issues still persist so players will whine.  Then escape abilities & camping abilities get nerfed, but again there is still the potential for archers to run and to gang up on players, so players will still whine. 

 Not to mention the fact that the community seems mixed on what to do for archer melee potential: everyone hates the running my old friendchers but GOD HELP US if archers get the tools necessary to actually be able to fight back successfully in melee (note: 'archer sidearm' the mace was just nerfed this last patch as well).

I was surprised the ranged damage nerf wasn't reverted this patch, especially on the heels of the Armageddon .1 right swing speed nerf that was so briskly brushed under the rug.  I suppose it's only better for me as I'm going 2H this next gen since I'll get to laugh at the tickle or arrow fire.  But in the interest of balance, this really needs to be fixed/reverted.

[slimpyman]

It was sad to see that spam is still very viable and that most polearmers still abuse stupid polestagger. Also most 2H still abuse hiltslash. Same ol', same ol'...

2h weapons outrange the non sheath able  polearms. and 2h weapons do admirable damage upclose.    they still need to figure out a way to balance polearms if they remove the hitstun.

[Overdriven]

Vote away:

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,24339.0.html