Author Topic: New ranged change  (Read 43008 times)

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Offline Ujin

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #300 on: January 19, 2012, 12:37:44 am »
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From what I've seen this has helped cavalry a lot too, they're at far less risk from arrows now which used to deal a lot of damage to their horses, it seems they've got a more free reign over the battlefield due to this. Of course it's gonna be a week or two before the pikes come back out but the previous slot changes may effect this.

Also horse archers suck now.
It's a heavy hit on cavalry actually.There's alot more spears+pikes around, and archers that  know what they're doing  can 1(head)shot my champion destrier.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 12:38:58 am by Ujin »

Offline Kafein

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #301 on: January 19, 2012, 12:44:47 am »
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It's a heavy hit on cavalry actually.There's alot more spears+pikes around, and archers that  know what they're doing  can 1(head)shot my champion destrier.

Huh, didn't knew that. I happen to get my horse headshot quite often :s

But one thing is sure, a decrease in ranged will indirectly help pikes since pikemen are sort of forced to stay out of cover to be of any anticav use.

Offline Fandrall

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #302 on: January 19, 2012, 12:47:24 am »
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Then I don't understand all the bitching about the patch. Most ranged on the forums only had this single phrase in their mouth when discussing the issues : "deal with it" or a variation.

So now that they have to "deal with it", it's not fair anymore ?


Isn't there a problem ? You know, something about hypocrisy.

I say, melee had to "deal with it" during ages. And if it's that bad, the balance team will buff the most hit classes/playstyles (throwing first I think) soon enough.

Im pretty sure I havent bitched about anything. I did however say its too soon to know how this have affected game balance and that the ranged people will adapt or change class. I also dont think this has in any way made ranged more skill based. Its certianly harder to kill someone with body shots but on the other hand you can oneshot guys in the heaviest gear (which is silly for everything but the heaviest crossbows). Thing is because of game mechanics its more about luck then skill.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 12:54:49 am by Fandrall »

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #303 on: January 19, 2012, 12:55:44 am »
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You really want to base arrow dmg off of realism? Having arrows stick and not do any significant damage to things like mail? Bouncing off of plate and scale?

I would say yes.  Bodkins should do significant damage to anything other than plate.  However, bodkins at close range should have a chance to penetrate plate for some damage.  Other arrows should do the same to anything other than plate and mail.  I'd always go for the realistic treatment of armor and weapons. 

The armored knight was the tank of the ancient battlefield and he should be here.  He was opposed by armored men on the opposite side.

A better way to deal with everybody going plate on servers would be perhaps to limit percentages of armor, 2h, ranged etc that could join the server.  Model the percentages after traditional medieval armies.  Perhaps they had 10% knights, 10% ranged and 80% infantry?  That way you could have realistic damage without domination by one class.  It'd be one way to get rid of upkeep too.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #304 on: January 19, 2012, 01:20:27 am »
+2
Shield forcefield shouldn't really be there for cav. The amount of times I'm stabbing a horse's face to have it magically sucked up by the shield of the rider and then being run over for 20 % of my health is retarded. When I hit the horse, the horse should be damaged, not the shield of the rider.

Also, buff arbalest/heavy xbow and throwing weapons. 8-)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 01:36:38 am by Gurnisson »
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Ujin

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #305 on: January 19, 2012, 01:30:26 am »
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Also, buff arbalest/heavy xbow and throwing weapons. 8-)
Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.And throwing.. well, let  throwing just ignore thenew ranged body/headshot values imo =).

Offline Blackbow

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #306 on: January 19, 2012, 01:41:19 am »
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Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.

NO WAY BRO IT'S PERFECT LIKE THAT  :twisted:
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #307 on: January 19, 2012, 01:51:54 am »
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A mw javelin thrown with 5 pt, 145 wpf did 15% hp to a champion arabian.

Same javelins failed to kill a guy in a leather vest with 2 javelins :S

Throwing rarely score headshots, its just not accurate enough so why did it need a loss in body damage also :P

I'm a horse thrower and I want at least some viability back please :D
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Offline Meow

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #308 on: January 19, 2012, 01:56:41 am »
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Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.And throwing.. well, let  throwing just ignore thenew ranged body/headshot values imo =).

I am kinda impressed to read that.
When i went throwing it felt like it created a 50m death zone for cav around me.
Mostly focused on taking down horses though.

Still i did not feel op just like a natural counter to cav, hitting inf charging me was random and i do not want to imagine how it is right now cause aimed headshots seem completely impossible outside of 3 meters range.

I am not sure what changes need to be done but maybe it really needs a semi set class system with different roles rather than a system where everyone is supposed to be equally effective.

Offline Joker86

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #309 on: January 19, 2012, 01:58:30 am »
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Sure...?
...for balancing the missile speed on ranged weapons it was a realism argument,
but for balancing the damage it isnt? ... interesting interesting

I only remember there was some kind of projectile speed nerf long time ago, but I never didn't pay attention to it. If the reasoning really was realism, then it was a fail nerf, but if it was balance then it was okay. But even if the official reason was realism, archers were still too... viable until 1.260 came out. So it was a hidden balance nerf anyway  :wink:

This is the job of ranged.
They have to kill the enemy while they stay outside the battlefield ... doesn't matter how good the enemy is.
And luck is a big part of this game especially for noobs(and not only for archers) ... deal with it.

So I have to deal with the fact that if I, as infantryman, DO have to care how skilled my opponent is, to kill him with a lot more effort (melee > shooting), just to gain the same result, under much higher risk? Is it this you want to say?

Well, I think you could be right. Luck seems to play a big part in this game, so you need to be quite lucky to land headshots over medium and long range. Deal with it.

I really wanted to support the claim to revert the archery nerf, but if I see that archers still don't appreciate how incredibly togher an infantryman's life is compared to that of an archer I say you deserve all bows nerfed to 1c damage. Really.  :evil:

(A few weeks ago I created an archer alt and level him up with STF, and logged in to the battle server. On my very first round with that completely new character I shot the Nr. 2 and Nr. 4 on the scoreboard of the enemy team. All I had to do is to aim a bit higher and to lead a bit, and then I clicked. Ridiculous.)


[...]

Lol Kafein, I think I formulated my sentence poorly. I didn't mean "I see that heavy cavalry will dominate the server", but "I see a heavy domination by cavalry". But probably the mistake was that you don't have a "heavy" domination, perhaps it's a strong one? A big one? Great? Severe? I think "ugly" will be right in any case  :mrgreen:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #310 on: January 19, 2012, 02:06:14 am »
+2
Yes indeed. Melee had to deal with it from the dawn of Warband. You know in Native archers still shoot like M249's ? cRPG evolved in the right direction with most of the patches. And it is only now that I see we are close to something remotely fair.

Basically, melee making whining threads resulted in the ranged saying "deal with it". This is not about nerf/buff patches and the epidermic reactions that ensue. This is about the state of the game. It's only human that ranged whining gets the same stupid answer.


I made the same remark, but I think Sebastian in particular will never get this.

Ranged tend to say 'deal with it' to melee because my God will melee not shut the fuck up about it. Every patch ranged is nerfed, and every patch it is still not enough. There is always something wrong. That is why ranged think melee should just suck it up and 'deal with it'. Because melee is never happy. You can bet in another 3-4 months time there will be constant complaining about ranged once again, and trying to find 'solutions' to the ranged 'problem' that is plaguing our servers...

Rarely have I seen ranged calling for the nerfs of any other class. But for some reason melee constantly call for the nerfs of any form of ranged, cav, anything that can interrupt their uber ability to be superman. So yes, melee should just bloody deal with it because archers and ranged have had to deal with nerf after nerf after nerf, simply because melee will NEVER stop whining.

So I have to deal with the fact that if I, as infantryman, DO have to care how skilled my opponent is, to kill him with a lot more effort (melee > shooting), just to gain the same result, under much higher risk? Is it this you want to say?

Well, I think you could be right. Luck seems to play a big part in this game, so you need to be quite lucky to land headshots over medium and long range. Deal with it.

I really wanted to support the claim to revert the archery nerf, but if I see that archers still don't appreciate how incredibly togher an infantryman's life is compared to that of an archer I say you deserve all bows nerfed to 1c damage. Really.  :evil:

(A few weeks ago I created an archer alt and level him up with STF, and logged in to the battle server. On my very first round with that completely new character I shot the Nr. 2 and Nr. 4 on the scoreboard of the enemy team. All I had to do is to aim a bit higher and to lead a bit, and then I clicked. Ridiculous.)

Ok Joker enough. Go and load up a stf ranged char and post screenshots of your scores. Until you can show that you are any good at it quit whining that ranged is far easier than melee. I sincerely doubt on a full battle server that you would get anywhere near the top of the scoreboard or even mid-scoreboard. Shooting the number 2 and number 4 of the enemy team means crap all. For all we know there could have been 4 players on the enemy team.

An infantryman's life is not tougher. My hoplite has 0 trouble with ranged. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been killed by ranged in one full generation. My archer gets killed far more than ranged than that ever does. Furthermore, I have never once had a problem chasing down ranged. Usually if I give up the chase they just keep on running so they aren't an issue. It's about playing smart. But for some reason a 2h sword seems to render a lot of you meleer's plain stupid and you just charge in hacking and slashing away and expecting to come out of it alive.

I admit my 2h is more susceptible to ranged, but even then it was still an annoyance, most of my deaths came from melee without ranged every playing a part. But still, if you stuck with your team, avoided archers and dodged if you saw them aiming at you, you could avoid the vast majority of ranged fire.

Both types of play have individual challenges. Neither is easier or harder. You can spam both, but you can also be incredibly skilled at both. The majority of players are average in both classes, but I bet the best melee and the best archers took a similar amount of time to reach the highly skilled level. People have preferences and shouldn't be punished for those preferences. This applies for cav, melee and ranged.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 02:25:52 am by Overdriven »

Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #311 on: January 19, 2012, 09:51:48 am »
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NO NO NO AND NO

i dont know who said heavy cav will now prevail is wrong

Iv already said it, but i feel more vulnarable to range on a heavy horse then a light horse!
Since the patch iv had so many rounds i'd come up to an archer to get oneshot.

The thing is, heavier horse are less manoeuvrable and have less speed, so when you go for an archer, he'll just aim for your head.

Going without a shield is just suicide, but even if you have a shield, at one point you'll have to uncover to thrust your slow lance. So archers with a bit of skill will just one shot you, if not youll be hit and it will cancel your thrust.
And trust me it feels like a punishement when you pay insane upkeep just to be one shot
im not the kind of player that goes round the battlefield, shields up and bumping players to death.

I now avoid archers as heavy cav

as light cav...this is another story.

So plz dont say its gonna be easy for a class if you dont play it at all

oh yea my champion courser already went down in one ranged shot...

Offline Joker86

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #312 on: January 19, 2012, 09:57:09 am »
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Sorry, but I disagree.

I think in no way you can compare footwork, manual blocking and attacking to aiming above, leading a target and releasing the LMB at the right time. Only the sheer amount of inputs by mouse and keyboard during melee exceeds the amount needed for archery by far, let alone the reflexes and the concentration needed to persist against good melee fighters. An archer duel with sidestepping is nothing compared to it.

And infantry is threatened by cavalry and archers at the beginning of the round, same like archers, with the small difference that at this point archers can already participate in combat, infantry can't. When the melee starts, infantry has to watch out for all three classes, infantry, cavalry and archers, while archers stay out of the melee and have only to be aware of archers and cavalry. And being in the central melee is the most dangerous place on the entire battlefield, there is no discussion about it. Only at the end of the round archers have to watch out for infantry, but even then latter first needs to walk up to them.


My bottom line: being infantry is much harder than being archer.

NO NO NO AND NO

i dont know who said heavy cav will now prevail is wrong

This was a misunderstanding, I meant cav in general, and especially light cavalry, as this is a class which is close to being sustainable with the upkeep budget.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #313 on: January 19, 2012, 10:02:33 am »
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My bottom line: being infantry is much harder than being archer.

Think everyone knows that, no?

Offline djavo

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Re: New ranged change
« Reply #314 on: January 19, 2012, 10:02:52 am »
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I am kinda impressed to read that.
When i went throwing it felt like it created a 50m death zone for cav around me.
Mostly focused on taking down horses though.

Still i did not feel op just like a natural counter to cav, hitting inf charging me was random and i do not want to imagine how it is right now cause aimed headshots seem completely impossible outside of 3 meters range.

I am not sure what changes need to be done but maybe it really needs a semi set class system with different roles rather than a system where everyone is supposed to be equally effective.

Throwing died with this patch, arbalest is almost useless, and archery will just move to spamming arrows.
Whos gonna stop that noob cavalry like Gnjus if theres no pikers with 5m lances!
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