Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !

[B3RS3RK]

So what makes you think then a xbower with a normal xbow and a shield which is absolutely vulnerable while reloading with only mediocre damage is superior to a fast-ass shooting archer with Bodkins piercing your ass heavily?

Yeah hes superior, but only in melee, and even there he is slower than the archer fucking him up.

[Ylca]

So what makes you think then a xbower with a normal xbow and a shield which is absolutely vulnerable while reloading with only mediocre damage is superior to a fast-ass shooting archer with Bodkins piercing your ass heavily?

Yeah hes superior, but only in melee, and even there he is slower than the archer fucking him up.

Range: Bow
Rate of Fire: Bow
Speed on Foot: Bow (most of the time)
Damage (per shot): Xbow (by a longshot)
Melee ability: Xbow by a mile (archers don't have spare points for real PS. No xbow build i've ever made had less than 6PS with plenty left over).
Armor Choice: Xbow
Upkeep: Xbow by a mile (i just respecced from archer to heavy cav and i'm actually paying significantly less than any of my archer gens).
Accuracy: Toss up. (Xbow can aim all day for that headshot, archers can notch another arrow quickly and refire. Averages out).
Shield usage: Xbow

They both have pros and cons. The issue was that the guy claimed that ranged shouldn't have a decent melee and i pointed out xbowmen (and i forgot throwers) get ranged and melee ability and shield usage should they choose. I'm not complaining its unbalanced, i'm saying that people take classes advantages in a bubble and forget the whole picture when trying to make comparisons.

[B3RS3RK]

Actually, Archers can be decent at melee too.Just take a 1slot bow.

I agree with him that ranged shouldnt be GOOD at melee, but I dont see any problem with that since neither xbow nor Archers are really good at melee unless they hybrid or have exorbitant skills.

[Ylca]

Actually, Archers can be decent at melee too.Just take a 1slot bow.

I agree with him that ranged shouldnt be GOOD at melee, but I dont see any problem with that since neither xbow nor Archers are really good at melee unless they hybrid or have exorbitant skills.

Archers have less skillpoints available for PS unless they significantly sacrifice WM and accuracy. Archers cannot carry shield effectively. Archers cannot wear more than about 5 pounds of body armor (9.5 if you're  a masochist). In no way do archers and xbowmen have anywhere near similar melee capabilities, that's the point. An xbowman and a thrower are ranged with significant melee capability yet people are complaining about archers having a single 1 slot item with possibly 3 PS.

Also you need to make a distinction between player skill and build power. An archer can be good at melee and some are in fact superior. The archer build is not a good build for melee, however.

[B3RS3RK]

Yeah, they dont have the same Melee qualities, but they dont have the same Ranged qualities either.Archers are 100% ranged while Xbowers are only 80% or something because of their long reloading time etc.

[Kato]

Archers have less skillpoints available for PS unless they significantly sacrifice WM and accuracy.

false

You can do a solid build with 7ps,7pd, 5if, 5wm,5athl and if you bring mace, you can be very capable in melee. You sacrifice little bit of accuracy, and athletics, but thats ok, because instead of running you can actually fight. Thats my build on archer alt, i am bad in archery, but at least i am not roofcamping running bundle of sticks.

[Ylca]

false

You can do a solid build with 7ps,7pd, 5if, 5wm,5athl and if you bring mace, you can be very capable in melee. You sacrifice little bit of accuracy, and athletics, but thats ok, because instead of running you can actually fight. Thats my build on archer alt, i am bad in archery, but at least i am not roofcamping running bundle of sticks.

I am not meaning this to insult you, but this is the point i'm trying to make. Below 6WM you start to seriously sacrifice accuracy and with the fact that PD actually decreases your effective WPF (for whatever reason) 7PD 5WM is actually worse than 6/6. Yeah you can melee well, but you sacrifice being an archer to do so. Also, sacrificing mobility also is a significant disadvantage for archery, as is carrying a heavy mace. People make it work but it's far from optimal, and nowhere near standard. Stellar players make it work, however- so kudos to you for having the ability to do so.

[Dezilagel]

I am not meaning this to insult you, but this is the point i'm trying to make. Below 6WM you start to seriously sacrifice accuracy and with the fact that PD actually decreases your effective WPF (for whatever reason) 7PD 5WM is actually worse than 6/6. Yeah you can melee well, but you sacrifice being an archer to do so. Also, sacrificing mobility also is a significant disadvantage for archery, as is carrying a heavy mace. People make it work but it's far from optimal, and nowhere near standard. Stellar players make it work, however- so kudos to you for having the ability to do so.

Then just go full six...?

With 6 ps, 6 ath and a solid 1-slot melee weapon you'll hardly be *gimped* in melee, especially considering that just by being an archer you nullify your opponents ability to control the range since lest he wants you to pull your bow he has to constantly chase you.

[Ylca]

Then just go full six...?

With 6 ps, 6 ath and a solid 1-slot melee weapon you'll hardly be *gimped* in melee, especially considering that just by being an archer you nullify your opponents ability to control the range since lest he wants you to pull your bow he has to constantly chase you.

Still don't get armor and are slower than comparable 6Ath characters. Bow has a massive penalty to movespeed, 1hers weigh twice their weight in terms of speed, and 2 stacks of arrows is 7 pounds at minimum assuming you can afford bodkin, and much more if you can't. It's doable, but it's not optimal, and it certainly isn't a melee beast in any way shape or form.

[Konrax]

I made a great suggestion on page 1, if you guys are done peen flexing and arguing over nonsense then please feel free to bring this thread back to a constructive manner.

ggkthx

[Dezilagel]

Still don't get armor and are slower than comparable 6Ath characters.

Well, you're an archer. Can't expect to perform up to pure melee standards BUT 6ps/ath is still more than enough to kill people. Light armor compensates for the speed loss against most melee players. Also, who the fucks wears armor for anything other than ranged/th's? lol.

Bow has a massive penalty to movespeed,

Source? But yeah, I do believe that bows slow you down somewhat, but it can't be that bad since I get outrun by most archers anyways (7 ath).

1hers weigh twice their weight in terms of speed

False: EDIT: Also, long weapons carry a massive movespeed penalty (disadvantage for 2h, worst for polearms) when combined with high weight.

Listed one-handed weapon weight                      Effective weight for calculation
                 1                                                                         1.5
                1.5                                                                        2
                 2                                                                          3

[Konrax]

You forgot the extra 6-8 lbs for a shield in extra weight too.

[Rogue_Eagle]

Actually, he got a point. One of the ways of making archery less rage inducing is nerfing the ranged part and buffing the melee abilities.

I sure used to melee more and run less when I could carry a good longsword instead of a weak hatchet.

[HarunYahya]

I think devs will consider giving some love to melee survivability of archers but tbh i don't think that could be the solution cuz i experienced limitless times that when it comes to archer vs melee at the end of the map archer just kites the infantry and shoots him to death.
You can always loot a fucking awesome +3 loomed weapon on the ground if you want to melee but i've never seen an archer bothers to do that while he can win easily by run-shoot-run-shoot combo.

there are 3 types of archers :
1)Longbow/Rusbow archer who excels at killing infantry with their hard hitting but slow bows. They carry a shitty 0 slot backup weapon to be able to block if they get cought.(Those guys run like hell if it comes to melee)
2)Hornbow archers who excels at killing enemy archers with their fast bows and those kind can go melee also since they don't give extra 3 points in STR and 1 skill point to PD,they give those points to PS and grab a mace or langesmesser . (Those may spam the shit out of you on melee but most of the time they just runaway if they can.)
3)Exceptions like Tenne longbow+langesmesser + only 1 quiver gameplay type is close to hornbow archers type but their priority target to shoot is infantry.

The common speciality of all those types is this:
Running away from melee is their priority move , if it's their last chance some may melee but most of them keep running.

Result:
Why would a guy bothers to fight melee with confusing mechanics like attack/block/glance/speed bonus etc while he can deal 35-45 damage from hundreds of meters ?
With my archer alt , i wouldn't do that even if the mod allows me to carry a fucking flamberge.

[Tzar]

Like koyama explains their is no profit for archer to go melee since they carry a freakin death dealing depleted uranium anti tank missile launcher thx to the bodkins arrows getting pierce dmg.

Remove the pierce dmg from bodkins an make only the longbow have that attribute and all our archer problems will go away.

Once archers have to aim their shot for weak spots an not just spray their arrows to hit someone 3 times to kill em regardless of armor everyone with a weak stomach for melee will be archers an thus increase the range spam that we all ready are dealing with.

If the devs wanted to fix the problem they should imo.

A. Increase the weight of the bows so they cant kite around all day an remove ladders archer´s can keep their High dmg pierce bodkins arrows but their counters such as shielder have a chance to catch em plus they cant be immune to melee/cav on roofs.

B. Archer´s lose their bodkin arrows with pierce and only the longbow have the pierce dmg like before the archer buff but they can still kite all day an camp roofs but they will be forced to aim for weak spots to deal the same dmg as before.