[STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof

[Tot.]

Make it 2h proficiency. Its really nice addition but hardly anyone uses it. Now, with collision changes, its even more useful, but its not possible to have both enough 2h wpfs to be competetive against dedicated 2-handers and enough wpfs in polearms to make it useful.

Original thread in suggestions

PS. I recently realized some people dont even know that there's such thing as halfswording. It's an alternate mode for two handed swords where your guy changes the grip on the sword to something like this:

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It has much shorter range, is slower but you are able to use your sword for close range thrusting. Useful pretty much only in tight corridors and such.

[Jarlek]

First of all. You do know you would lose the "rear horses" part? Just so you are clear of that.


Now about the suggestion:
First of all, I don't think it is a good idea to do this. It would make 2handers even better at clusterfuck fighting then they are now, without them having to use wpf in something else. The few 2h/pole hybrids I've seen that switches between normal/halfsword mode are very good already and I can't think of how annoying it would be if they still had 150-ish wpf in both modes.

Secondly, there was also a suggestion for making some polearms able to switch to the 2h animations while still having polearms wpf (but unbalanced) and there was a lot of complaining about that. I don't think they should do this without doing it to both 2h and polearms.

Finally, I thought the different wpfs was meant to represent the different "fighting" styles i.e. how you swing and hold the weapon. The polearm axes and the glaive and LHB and the like are all technically 2h weapons, they are just held further in and not at the hilt which 2hs are. So wouldn't it go against the system of "this is how i know how to fight" that wpf does? Although this is a realism argument so it's not that important anyway.

[Tot.]

First of all, I don't think it is a good idea to do this. It would make 2handers even better at clusterfuck fighting then they are now

You clearly havent used any sort of long weapon for a bit. Currently longer two handed swords get stuck on completely everything around you (and behind you, when doing overheads).

[Jarlek]

You clearly havent used any sort of long weapon for a bit. Currently longer two handed swords get stuck on completely everything around you (and behind you, when doing overheads).

Actually I have. They are still very decent in big groups if you actually know how to swing.

And nice totally ignoring the rest of the thread. Fuck no if we are gonna discuss this like reasonable beings! Let's just reply to one single part of what someone posts!

[Fraemi]

Horse rearing is completely useless for polearm mode since you have a much better bet at gravely injuring/killing the rider and his horse with a stab, not to mention you would get outreached.
It also doesn't make much sense why someone who dedicates his entire fighting training to 2h swords would be completely unable to use this technique competently, while someone who specializes in polearm weapons (say - a pikeman) would be more than proficient with it. Many people are using the too-strong-for-price mace very often is sieges or massive clusterfucks because it's a lot better than a GS in those, where halfswording should be almost intuitive - while it's far from effective.

[Jarlek]

Horse rearing is completely useless for polearm mode since you have a much better bet at gravely injuring/killing the rider and his horse with a stab, not to mention you would get outreached.
It also doesn't make much sense why someone who dedicates his entire fighting training to 2h swords would be completely unable to use this technique competently, while someone who specializes in polearm weapons (say - a pikeman) would be more than proficient with it. Many people are using the too-strong-for-price mace very often is sieges or massive clusterfucks because it's a lot better than a GS in those, where halfswording should be almost intuitive - while it's far from effective.

True. But would it not be a bit too powerful to have both normal and halfswording for someone with 6 PS and 157 wpf in both? I say the fact that you have to spread your wpf to be be able to fully use a greatsword is a good thing.

Although I get your point from a gameplay point of view (polearm better than 2handers with a greatsword?) it makes sort of sense from a realism point of view (fighting style is similar as to axes and that kind of polearms), but realism shouldn't be what we should balance from.

[Fraemi]

I don't really think it would be op, it would still be rather weak and useful only for close quarters combat. It deals less dmg on swings, it has tremendously inferior reach to 2h mode, no overhead. The only advantages are - ever so slightly better for close quarters (and by close quarters I mean heavy clusterfucks, imagine the fight after siege ladder arriving at walls) and higher damage on stab, but I personally find the polearm stab a bit harder to work with slightly.

Even if it DID use 2h prof, I imagine it would still be inferior in 19/20 battle cases and personally I'd nearly never use it since even then overheads are a solid, high dmg standard to use with 2h anims in big fights, ofc halfswording doesn't have overheads and generally weaker attacks. It just feels completely pointless for me atm.
Also, guess why noone uses 2h weps as polearms - they make really shitty polearms.

[Entaro]

I don't really think it would be op, it would still be rather weak and useful only for close quarters combat. It deals less dmg on swings, it has tremendously inferior reach to 2h mode, no overhead. The only advantages are - ever so slightly better for close quarters (and by close quarters I mean heavy clusterfucks, imagine the fight after siege ladder arriving at walls) and higher damage on stab, but I personally find the polearm stab a bit harder to work with slightly.

Even if it DID use 2h prof, I imagine it would still be inferior in 19/20 battle cases and personally I'd nearly never use it since even then overheads are a solid, high dmg standard to use with 2h anims in big fights, ofc halfswording doesn't have overheads and generally weaker attacks. It just feels completely pointless for me atm.
Also, guess why noone uses 2h weps as polearms - they make really shitty polearms.

^

The reason it isn't the same logic as polearms getting 2H animations, is because polearms are already very long.  The swords loose a great deal of range when switching to the pole mode and get the stat penalty as well.  I am 2H cav so I actually have 100 wpf in polearms but still use the mode sparingly, only in close quarter clusterfuck situations.   Having played with it for awhile, it adds a litle bit of utility, but It's never been like turning on imba mode or some such, just gives you a bit more versatility.  Really no reason why it shouldn't use 2h wpf.

[Teeth]

The whole halfswording thing is ridiculous in my opinion. It gives polearm users even more versatility than they have now, they can use 2h weapons with decent efficiency by halfswording, can be useful in strategus. Apart from polearm users being able to use 2h swords halfswording is completely useless. Nobody uses it.

[HarunYahya]

This  was my suggestion about giving 2h mode for poleaxes but i think even if that happens,poleaxe on 2h mode should use 2h wpf.
Just same as this situation.
WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.
No from me.

[Siiem]

Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.

I don't see how that comparison is valid... at all.

[Slamz]

WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.

... Actually, you've convinced me.  I voted yes but if I could change it to no, I would.

I started to argue that we should do the same thing for all the weapons, because cRPG discourages hybrids so much that these secondary modes don't get any use.

But maybe that's not the point.

Should a person with a throwing axe be able to switch modes to use it as a 1H but still be able to use throwing axe skill?  That would be interesting.  Pure throwers could also melee decently just with all their points in throwing.  Should someone with a Fighting Axe (1H) be able to use it in secondary mode (2H) and still use 1H skill?  Should someone with a Long Sword (2h) be able to use it in secondary mode (1H) and still use 2H skill?


I think most people would say "no" to all of those.  Why should half-swording be an exception?

[Jarlek]

... Actually, you've convinced me.  I voted yes but if I could change it to no, I would.

I started to argue that we should do the same thing for all the weapons, because cRPG discourages hybrids so much that these secondary modes don't get any use.

But maybe that's not the point.

Should a person with a throwing axe be able to switch modes to use it as a 1H but still be able to use throwing axe skill?  That would be interesting.  Pure throwers could also melee decently just with all their points in throwing.  Should someone with a Fighting Axe (1H) be able to use it in secondary mode (2H) and still use 1H skill?  Should someone with a Long Sword (2h) be able to use it in secondary mode (1H) and still use 2H skill?


I think most people would say "no" to all of those.  Why should half-swording be an exception?

That's what happens when someone (kocik) comes and says what I've been trying to say in a way MUCH better explained than what I did

[Fraemi]

Using realism as a main argument is retarded and it's not like it's any major buff. It's probably the "Oh, no! Someone posted something that ever slightly buffs 2h, they surely should not!"
also lol at thinking poleaxes actually should get a 2h mode.

Edit: To not be as much as of a dick:

Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.

Do you think the difference between a pilot and a driver license is nearly similar to that of putting both hands in one place on a sword and then putting one hand a bit further? Halfswording is also something that any real "heavy 2h swordsman" would have learnt.
Not to mention that using realism as a basis for balance is and always will be - weak and baseless, realism would deem necesarry so many changes that the game would be unenjoyable. Fun is and should be basis for balance(ing).
The examples you gave are far more drastic than halfswording, which is basically a secondary/tertiary technique which would be almost necesarry for anyone who brings a really big sword (ex2h) to an actual battle - where space could be limited. Throwing requires obviously a completely different set of skill than slashing an axe, swinging an object with 1 and then 2 hands is also quite different.

Try not to read too deep into halfswording using same animations as polearms - it's that way for best representation. Using a 2h sword with a spread out grip is nothing alike to a pike or a glaive.

[Tot.]

WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.
No from me.

1. Realism argument.
2.  So in your opinion in real life if a skilled swordsman is using his two handed sword with halfswording technique he is also experienced and proficient while using halberds, poleaxes and all other polearm weapons?  Since thats what comes out logically if your argument is valid.