Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[Siiem]

I don't think a 25cm blade being showed into your armpit, or through the vizier into your brain hurts much less Siiem.

Anyway back on topic, it's not about realism, but making cav somehow resemble cav, while keeping stuff balanced.

The chance of that happening is alot less then a couched lance smasheing into you. Because even if you can see a lancer coming you cannot protect yourself like you can vs a 25 cm blade.

[UrLukur]

You think it's like those guys in decent armors were just lucky, many of them ? Armor saved bruce. First, weapon had to strike with proper angle to penetrate for example coat of plates, mail and aketon. Second, blunt trauma was partially negated by armor. Third, even when it penetrated the would could be not fatal, you would be amazed how much beating can withstand guy pumped up with adrenaline.

And thrusting with lance lost much of it's energy during the process. Early lances (all bar couched lances in game) were built without empty core, so they were not that resilient so they were broken after some hits (in couching they were broken more often).

[Ujin]

You think it's like those guys in decent armors were just lucky, many of them ? Armor saved bruce. First, weapon had to strike with proper angle to penetrate for example coat of plates, mail and aketon. Second, blunt trauma was partially negated by armor. Third, even when it penetrated the would could be not fatal, you would be amazed how much beating can withstand guy pumped up with adrenaline.

And thrusting with lance lost much of it's energy during the process. Early lances (all bar couched lances in game) were built without empty core, so they were not that resilient so they were broken after some hits (in couching they were broken more often).

This topic is very amusing to read. Wonderful arguments used by Thomek and this guy too.

Tell me UrLukur, how many strikes of your 1handed sword are needed to take down a plated knight then ?

[bruce]

You think it's like those guys in decent armors were just lucky, many of them ? Armor saved bruce. First, weapon had to strike with proper angle to penetrate for example coat of plates, mail and aketon. Second, blunt trauma was partially negated by armor. Third, even when it penetrated the would could be not fatal, you would be amazed how much beating can withstand guy pumped up with adrenaline.

True. However, people in sub-coat of plate armours (most of crpg) are going to be almost certainly dead or disabled (which is dead for purposes of crpg, since we don't have "incapacited" people by a couched lance. In fact, charging a packed infantry formation with couched lances is very likely to do more then just kill the front row (corpses are not ethereal in real life)  - but on the other hand, if you couch infantry like that, you're almost certainly going to fight with some other weapon for the rest of the battle. 1257 AD actually has breakable lances (and they almost always break on couch).

Also, anecdotal evidence regarding what people can take while overdosed with adrenaline is not really a good argument. There are documented cases of people in modern warfare receiving 5-6 shots with a firearm including one to the head and continuing to fight. Imagine someone 500 years from now extrapolating the deadliness of firearms based on written information about such cases but without statistics how lethal firearms generally were... he could get to some really bogus conclusions that way ;)

However, look at it this way: in a game where armour is so weak that you can kill someone in mail or such with a single stab (and sometimes slash) on foot and someone in mail gets sliced in two hits of a onehanded sword, well, lance from horseback killing you in one go is a lot more reasonable then that.

[Thomek]

If i see a skilled guy who is prepared for me, i switch to a different target. It's a draw.

Maneuverability is what separates good horsemen who know how to use it from bad horsemen. It is more of a tool for survival than a killing tool, take that away and you can shove those extra hp/body armor points you-know-yourself-where.

No Ujin, Maneuverability as we are discussing here is a stat on the horse.

No one says we want to take it away.. But remove some of it, so that horsemen don't drive go-cart around the maps anymore, and give that power back to them in speed, trample-damage, and longer lances.

Everyone always take every idea to the most extreme in their own minds, it's getting tiring.

Come with some ideas and real arguments, rather than just dismiss it.

[UrLukur]

This topic is very amusing to read. Wonderful arguments used by Thomek and this guy too.

Tell me UrLukur, how many strikes of your 1handed sword are needed to take down a plated knight then ?

With correct technique 1. Just bashing, crapload. 2 good strikes in the head in short amount of time coupled with grappling do the trick most of the time. Neck strikes also hurts. Joint strikes are cool too. Much of this is skill dependent, but you have quite good control over those strikes and you can aim them better than on horseback

True. However, people in sub-coat of plate armours (most of crpg) are going to be almost certainly dead or disabled (which is dead for purposes of crpg, since we don't have "incapacited" people by a couched lance. In fact, charging a packed infantry formation with couched lances is very likely to do more then just kill the front row (corpses are not ethereal in real life)  - but on the other hand, if you couch infantry like that, you're almost certainly going to fight with some other weapon for the rest of the battle. 1257 AD actually has breakable lances (and they almost always break on couch).

Also, anecdotal evidence regarding what people can take while overdosed with adrenaline is not really a good argument. There are documented cases of people in modern warfare receiving 5-6 shots with a firearm including one to the head and continuing to fight. Imagine someone 500 years from now extrapolating the deadliness of firearms based on written information about such cases but without statistics how lethal firearms generally were... he could get to some really bogus conclusions that way ;)

However, look at it this way: in a game where armour is so weak that you can kill someone in mail or such with a single stab (and sometimes slash) on foot and someone in mail gets sliced in two hits of a onehanded sword, well, lance from horseback killing you in one go is a lot more reasonable then that.

Double mail, or aventail over surcoat over mail did the trick too, lamellar or kuyak over mail also. Or even double aketon with mail.

All weapons are meant to be lethal, sometimes after adrenaline wears off. But even people with mortal wounds can carry on fighting, people can shrug off pain reactions, if they dont have blackout or lost will to fight (and have capacity to move their body more or less like they wish to).

I was always pro decreasing lethality in warband.

[bruce]

I was always pro decreasing lethality in warband.

Well... if people wanted to do that, ramping up armour rating by ~50%, accompanied with removing pierce from most weapons (bar spears/lances, with lower damage amount however) and upping cut damage on a few (arrows), would be an easy way to do the trick (so mail would be the equalivent of current plate, for instance, like in  RCM-type mods).

It would also cause epic whine, however.

[Michael]

I am not sure what your (Thomek) motivation is/ was for this topic.

Another cav nerf? Well, fine, we noblemen are the best anyway, so please give us a bigger challenge. =)

Balance? Realism?
Well, you might remember my war elephant. I had maps with about 40, 50 kills when I played "for real", using horse and lance. 38/47 of those kills were unaware people.
Every two minutes another vote-ban against me.
Similiar bad things happened to the Finn. (Not me, a different person).

The majority of crpg players is not capable to use their brain. In other words: anything above CAMP/ CHARGE/ shoot with a bow is too complicated for them.

So no, let it be.

(The only horses that are easy to maneuver are Sarranid, Steppe and Desert anyway, and those horses die easily by one javelin or 2 bolts/ arrows.)
All other horses are kinda hard to maneuver, even with riding 7. In some weeks I should have 8. I will see if that makes a difference, but for now, charging anyone except a turtler is risky. Charging a thrower is more luck than skill-based (hoping he gets nervous and misses). Same, not as extreme, but similiar for archers and crossbowmen.

Charging a 2h is suicide.

Polearms, even a pitchfork, can stop your horse. As long the horse doesnt get a "crushthrough" chance, and as long 2hstabs are not nerfed (yeah yeah yeah I wear heaviest armor jump 6 metre in the air and 1 stab both rider and horse lololol I am awesome) we wont/ cant change our playstyle - sneaking behind the enemy lines and back-stabbing, thats all we can do. 

[Thomek]

I am not sure what your (Thomek) motivation is/ was for this topic.
we wont/ cant change our playstyle - sneaking behind the enemy lines and back-stabbing, thats all we can do. 

I don't want to nerf cavalry. But make it different. (for the nth time)

I want to see if there is room in the game mechanics to see if another playstyle is viable and balanced.

Like it is now it's just silly.

[Bonze]

Well, you might remember my war elephant. I had maps with about 40, 50 kills when I played "for real", using horse and lance. 38/47 of those kills were unaware people.
Every two minutes another vote-ban against me.
Similiar bad things happened to the Finn. (Not me, a different person).

The majority of crpg players is not capable to use their brain.

Shut up! Michael wannabe cav expert.  troll another tread with your ego propaganda.


Polls against Finn every round or 2 minutes ??  Stop the dirty lies you brain-damaged douchebag . Finn was Pro cav . You = troll in game and forum . I am certain of it, troll in RL. 

New_Player_Noob
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TOP Weapons you use
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trash-talker ! 29 Spear kills .....
 

[Bonze]

..

[Rumblood]

Well... if people wanted to do that, ramping up armour rating by ~50%, accompanied with removing pierce from most weapons (bar spears/lances, with lower damage amount however) and upping cut damage on a few (arrows), would be an easy way to do the trick (so mail would be the equalivent of current plate, for instance, like in  RCM-type mods).

It would also cause epic whine, however.

I would simply like to see it take 2 shots to die. If you get hit for 100% of your hit points in the first strike, you should have 1hp left. That would improve the game I think, though might slant more towards an Agi build.

[bruce]

That would improve the game I think

no

, though might slant more towards an Agi build.

Exactly.

People who say things like str/ironflesh is useless, armour is useless, etc, get oneshotted by a sniper crossbow / throwing whatever, a choice you make when creating your char and equipping it with cloth to be faster / have no wpf penalties.

As you say, your char gets oneshot by a sniper crossbow. Mine loses 50-60% hp. However, if there's a magical field protecting you from dying in one shot, then guess what, my armour/IF/str doesn't offer me extra protection over your clothes and magical oneshot protection.

If people want lethality to go down and things to make more sense, then buffing armour (and rebalancing some weapon damages) would be the way. I suspect it isn't, and I guess most people find the current stats more fun / interesting.

[panderson]

I don't want to nerf cavalry. But make it different. (for the nth time)

I want to see if there is room in the game mechanics to see if another playstyle is viable and balanced.

Like it is now it's just silly.

You claim you just want to make it different, but the fact is that maneuverability is the only thing that keeps cav alive.  Your proposed change would be nothing but a nerf.

Why should we completely change the playstyle when the current game works as is.

Any claims to realism is just a non-sequitir because this is a game.  Very few things in this game are realistic.

[EponiCo]

no

Exactly.

People who say things like str/ironflesh is useless, armour is useless, etc, get oneshotted by a sniper crossbow / throwing whatever, a choice you make when creating your char and equipping it with cloth to be faster / have no wpf penalties.

As you say, your char gets oneshot by a sniper crossbow. Mine loses 50-60% hp. However, if there's a magical field protecting you from dying in one shot, then guess what, my armour/IF/str doesn't offer me extra protection over your clothes and magical oneshot protection.

If people want lethality to go down and things to make more sense, then buffing armour (and rebalancing some weapon damages) would be the way. I suspect it isn't, and I guess most people find the current stats more fun / interesting.

No it's not good. What is bad on heavy armor is not that people can take more hits, but glances. Damage is random - and if the damage is too low attack will not interrupt him and his attack will hit you, even though you hit first. Sure, you can say you can get the same armor and get lucky, too, or get more str (which doesn't do that much actually, real solution is a blunt weapon, since it's less random). But the point is, the only one who gets something out of this mechanic is someone who keeps swinging away without regard for defense.
Raising hp (everyone gets +10 if extra f.i.) is a better solution if people want to take more hits.