Author Topic: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)  (Read 20953 times)

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Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2012, 12:57:48 am »
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Yes, make horses way stronger, but less maneuverable. So its not just about killing the unaware. It gives cav a better change against infantry, but it will require anticipation to succeed. +1

i agree a global +900 hp and -2maneuver for all horses is only fair, also we know horses arent go-karts like in the game

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2012, 01:07:20 am »
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i agree with that thomek should be an Dev
also Ninja gameplay can be compared with Al Adin
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2012, 03:26:59 am »
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But in fact your first priority target after spawning should be: fight enemy cav! Instead of autowalking towards the enemy, watch out for cav. Instead of shooting into the enemy infantry blob, shoot the horses at the flanks. Instead of running off with your shield and one handed weapon to have fun fighting three enemies at once, stick to teammates with spears. Instead of follwing the first two handed Kuyak wearer to support him with your pike, move along the flanks and the back of your team to form a protection screen against cav with the other pikemen.

And other idealist dreams. Go take a look at EU1. This has been discussed to death. Awareness my ass! You simply cannot be aware of all the cav and ranged and melee enemies, and duel 2+ people while still keeping a lookout for cav. The human brain is not capable of it.

Fact is there is more and more cav on EU1, and gameplay is getting lamer and lamer.

And certain horses and builds are still like go-karts.
And there is still easy as fuck to lance-headshot people as cav. (Aim mouse at right angle and keep it there)
And still heavy lance 1 hit people to the body not couched.
And still cav can choose their targets and run away at will. (which they should be able to, but they dont have to use)
And still the true Ninjas of this game are cav players.  (sneaky approach, 1hit kill backstabs, speedy escape, choosing their targets at will)

I predicted this 1 year ago, and here we are. Nothing has changed, every cav nerf has been compensated by an indirect buff. (Nerf to ranged, nerfs to pikes.)

Now the metagame is more ranged&cav than anything else. The only ones sticking to melee are those who love melee and have the skills to survive there.

Cav is boring to die to and boring to play, same as ranged. I'm not suggesting a nerf per se, just suggesting that it should be changed so they would have to be teamworkers in stead of backstabbing vultures.

As mentioned before somewhere, if 2 cav players had the intelligence to run a rape train, they could bump-couch for the win. Why are they not doing it?

Because they don't even have to try.

My suggestions would make terrain matter more, timing matter more, they would profit more from teamplay, and horses would behave more like a real horse in stead of a super precise homing missile with anti-bullet avoidance programming.

GK can go cry moar, everyone knows very few of you have any skills at all off the horse.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:29:51 am by Thomek »
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2012, 03:30:58 am »
+1
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Opinion...
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All of which your entitled to. But there are plenty of people who will disagree.
As long as melee are still getting the majority of over all kills on EU1 week in week out then I see no problem.

Next time you go on EU1 watch this before hand, play it whilst gaming, and enjoy dancing all over the place instead of always raging about cav and abusing your admin powers against it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIOUJ7by6U
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:33:28 am by Overdriven »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2012, 03:33:13 am »
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And other idealist dreams. Go take a look at EU1. This has been discussed to death. Awareness my ass! You simply cannot be aware of all the cav and ranged and melee enemies, and duel 2+ people while still keeping a lookout for cav. The human brain is not capable of it.

Still you forget that with a better infatry more cav would die, sorting out the bad cav players and encouraging to change their class. That way awareness would work again.

And I play on EU1, and the class I die least to is cav. Because I know how to be aware.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:35:17 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2012, 03:35:21 am »
+1
And other idealist dreams. Go take a look at EU1. This has been discussed to death. Awareness my ass! You simply cannot be aware of all the cav and ranged and melee enemies, and duel 2+ people while still keeping a lookout for cav. The human brain is not capable of it.
More or less. This is what makes cav so gay and random. Once you engage in a melee fight, you simply can't watch behind you and to the sides if you want to block your opponent. So then it's only down to chance whether or not there's a cav around who'll come to bump you/lance you. And then you die. Wohoo, fun fun fun.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2012, 03:37:33 am »
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Good for you Joker, but personally I hate being in an adrenaline pumping duel with shit flying everywhere just to get backstabbed by a noob on a horse.

Overdriven, show some respect and come with real arguments.

Really, I'm not trying to destroy cav,

BUT TO CHANGE IT

I don't see why you are resisting it so much. It's not like gameplay isn't already a bit stale for us vets :)

I want to change a bit the playstyle how it works, then buff it so the new playstyle is as effective as it is now.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2012, 03:38:44 am »
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Overdriven, show some respect and come with real arguments.


The only way I would support this is if polearms didn't stop a horse. Otherwise the nerfed manoeuvrability would make polearms vs cav way to OP and insta kill every time, regardless of the increased HP. There would also have to be a complete overhaul in the maps in rotation. 90% (shitty village maps ect), would be awful for the changes you are proposing, thus negating an entire class of players for a lot of it. The maps would need to be much more open as a whole to give cavalry a chance of actually doing something as these changes would nerf them insanely on closer/hillier maps.

I love the idea of big cav charges ect. And on paper it sounds great...but that only works with clan organisation. Pubby implementation of these changes would be appalling.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2012, 03:42:00 am »
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Yes I agree Overdriven.

But this is details :D

There should be very few weapons able to stop a horse, weapons that don't double super-effectively to melee duels. In any case..

IT'S NOT SO HARD TO SPOT AND AVOID A PIKE.

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2012, 03:44:07 am »
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Good for you Joker, but personally I hate being in an adrenaline pumping duel with shit flying everywhere just to get backstabbed by a noob on a horse.

Well, 2 points:

1st: you are a Ninja, which means you are running around in light armour with a rather short weapon and without shield far off the rest of your team, which makes you the perfect lancer victim. 2 lancers or more and you are dead. Always check whether you could be biased against cav or not. I can't really judge it, but I just noticed this fact.

2nd: actually I am not against your suggestion. It is definitely interesting, and I don't say it couldn't work. I just think that it's the better way to change something about the way the infatry plays the game, before you completely rework an entire class.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2012, 03:48:52 am »
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Agreed it's not to hard to avoid a pike with most of the horses now. But if this was implemented it would make it a lot harder. And we have way to many bottleneck village maps with lots of fences and buildings that would be a pike players wet dream with these changes. If every map was open plains and included a significant amount of team work (massive clan tourny for example) then it would work well. But the manoeuvrability is needed because of the way pubby game play works by nature. Every player is an individual and will rarely work as a team. Due to the higher speed nature of cav, working as a team is much harder because usually you are far more separated and its a lot harder to stick together and gage another randomers mentality. GK only manages it because we are on TS or are generally used to working together. So it is much more on the individual player and his horse than ganking melee is which is generally forced blob team play naturally.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2012, 03:53:10 am »
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Well.. Joker..

1. I'm not a good player but I top the charts often enough. I'm wearing Lordly lamellar with +2lamellar gloves sitting at 48 body armor at lvl33 (no IF 18STR).
That's a more like a heavy medium armor near plate. I'm almost never getting lanced when alone in the open, people see I carry jarids and that I know how to throw them. Most cav players make that mistake only once.

2. I don't see how to change how infantry works. Make them smarter? Read my better battles idea..

Less maneuverable, more powerful cav is what I imagine could work. If it doesn't work? Make them moar powerful. (Longer lances, more charge damage)

Until it is balanced.


There are not THAT many village maps either.. 4? :) Most cav builds work fine on foot, use the opportunity to save some cash for a more expensive horse.
OR adapt your tactics in the village maps.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:54:42 am by Thomek »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2012, 03:54:30 am »
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Personally, I don't mind cav much. Many of them are avoiding me if they don't have huge advantage (3 cav or more vs one little me). Yes, it's boring to watch for your back all the time but I got used to it. Hate throwers and pikes way more than cav and other ranged.

I wanted to become cav but couldn't make it. Thomek is right, cav is boring to play and quite horrible after all these "changes". I do backstab people as melee quite a lot but at least I have a choice not to. As cav you have no choice, you're always backstabbing. Boring.

Cav was pretty cool before lance nerf, I could toy with noob pikemen even if they were aware. Good times.

HC is a lot more fun than lancer/1h cav.

What would I do? Change cav to how it was. Lower couch damage but wide lance angle. Noob cav will suffer, good ones won't feel a thing. There will be no more one hit kills by couching, something that noob cav like so much, you'll have to aim for head which is something not every cav is able to do every time.


Offline Joker86

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2012, 04:06:32 am »
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2. I don't see how to change how infantry works. Make them smarter? Read my better battles idea..

Well, to be honest, I read it, but I didn't get it. Perhaps due to lingual problems, perhaps because I never played a strat game, but I didn't get it  :oops:

Judging from what I understood it's about organized battles, and that would be my solution, too. Implement a commander system with...

... capable commanders being put in charge (I suggest forum votes, every automated system would deliver inferior results)
... every player starting "in" the command system, having to leave it actively, instead of having to join actively
... following orders giving rewards
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2012, 04:09:33 am »
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Personally, I don't mind cav much. Many of them are avoiding me if they don't have huge advantage (3 cav or more vs one little me). Yes, it's boring to watch for your back all the time but I got used to it. Hate throwers and pikes way more than cav and other ranged.

I wanted to become cav but couldn't make it. Thomek is right, cav is boring to play and quite horrible after all these "changes". I do backstab people as melee quite a lot but at least I have a choice not to. As cav you have no choice, you're always backstabbing. Boring.

Cav was pretty cool before lance nerf, I could toy with noob pikemen even if they were aware. Good times.

HC is a lot more fun than lancer/1h cav.

What would I do? Change cav to how it was. Lower couch damage but wide lance angle. Noob cav will suffer, good ones won't feel a thing. There will be no more one hit kills by couching, something that noob cav like so much, you'll have to aim for head which is something not every cav is able to do every time.

I can't remember the last time I didn't hit the head with a thrust from horseback (unless the enemy was bumped on the ground :wink:). Jousting vs. a great sword user is much harder than just stab him in the head, and it's a lot cooler too. Rather nerf thrust damage on lances but buff the damage you can get from speed bonus. Would make lances worse for ground use and slow trot but stronger on medium to high speed

You can still toy with bad pikemen/hoplites, but it depends on the horse/build. Was easymode with 7 riding and an arabian, not as easy with 5 riding and a destrier.

I wouldn't mind cav being different, but they shouldn't be nerfed compared to current state. The leg damage on horses now is retarded, and make heavy horses pretty shit. Old lance angle would be nice, would encourage more cav vs. cav which leaves less cav for backraping too. Also, those cav duels can be pretty tense and cool. However, I would like to see a change to the bump mechanic. Either you should have to get into higher speed to knock someone down or the damage should be reduced by quite a bit. The bumps are overpowered as they are now, and is usually and insta-win button against any infantry (barely walk over the inf and he's defenseless for almost 2 seconds)

Also, cav spawning 30 seconds later would be nice too. I hate seeing people die 2-4 seconds after spawning, without being able to do anything. :(

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 04:10:46 am by Gurnisson »
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