Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[UrLukur]

Well... if people wanted to do that, ramping up armour rating by ~50%, accompanied with removing pierce from most weapons (bar spears/lances, with lower damage amount however) and upping cut damage on a few (arrows), would be an easy way to do the trick (so mail would be the equalivent of current plate, for instance, like in  RCM-type mods).

It would also cause epic whine, however.

Not this way, rather change how armor soak hits from damage types. It's the table:
armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75

Soak decrease damage by set amount (multiply it by armor value), reduction is percentage of leftover damage that vanish. So if you take 100c and you have armor with say 44 protection value, soak make it 65, reduction make it 39 damage. 100 c is not that rare, with 32c weapon with PS6 and 150 wpf you hit for about 59 with no speed bonus. With some speed bonus it could mean even twice the amount.

I think that reduction values need to be increased further, so percentage of leftover damage would be reduced more which will lead to lesser amount of instant kills with most weapons while it would leave current balance of turning into swing and sweet spots untouched.

[Storm[HUN]]

You know I am member of a gaming community with hondred members based upon a shooter, also low admin on one server there, and well... it is just the same as here:

98% of posts regarding what to change are nothing but low skill people whining because high skill people PWN them like hell. (And people who played only a few hourse and have only basic equipment whininh because people who spent weeks saving up for the warhorse or plate armor do bid damage and take low.)

For the remaining 2%, well... Try to make your voice stand out of the crowd... Good luck, you will need it.

[Thomek]

Dunno who you are talking about.

I've been in cRPG almost from the very beginning. (May.) There was a storm back then also. That you?

Think I got an ok feel for what could be changed. Just my opinion however.

[Storm[HUN]]

Sword swings at heavy armor should kill in 2-3 hits from blunt trauma

Sorry but totally BS. Have you ever seen REAL armor from close? Have you ever been hit with anything IRL while wearing solid armor?

Heavy armors are well designed.
1, If you git a plate, the force will be mostly evenly distributed by the plate on the surface of body part under it, makes it less N/cm2
2, They used to wear padded cloth, lather, etc. under it to further help the absorption and distribution of force from hits taken (and also help the distribution of armor  weight).

In real life, there is only two way to damage someone wearing a full plate (not counting in throwing him down from a high place. )
1, Attack unarmored spots - this was the main technique back then. In the base stance they held the sword with two hand, one on the handle and one holding the blade about at its half, using the sword like a short spear, trying to pierce and targeting spots not covered by plates (like armpit) or where armor parts join and not overlap properly (ex.: between breastplate and helm if there is no neck guard). There were also special swords designed directly for this.
2, Crushing through armor. This was the hard way, mostly preferred by those not skilled enough for the first, aka common soldiers. This is what war hammers, war picks, morning stars and axes were mainly used for. Heavy crossbows (those that used a mechanism to be drawn) were also strong enough to crush a bolt through most armor. Later when firearms appeared, after a while better or stronger hand cannons, pole cannons, later pistols, arquebuses etc. were also breaking through armor, that's why the use of armor disappeared. Though, in the early firearm stages strong, high quality armor were ABLE to stop a bullet from a pistol or a common carbine. At those times high quality armor were often tested by being shot at with a gun. If the bullet did leave a mark but not crushing through, the armor passed the test. Then often the mark of the test shot was surrounded by ornaments as a proof of quality.

So actually, heavy armor in M&B is still MUCH WEAKER than it would be realistic. But if it were realistic not too many could ever kill the players wearing it, right?

[Storm[HUN]]

Dunno who you are talking about.

Just look through the history of this topic, or trigger a discussion about this on a populated server.

Knight in Gothic Plate with 2H Sword kills 30 player alone, then he at last gets killed with someone using a heavy crossbow, and what happens? Guys starts whining and complaining how NOT FAIR is that crossbowman killed him and telling crossbows are too strong (After he one-hit-killed a few dozen poor players)....

Did you notice players almost NEVER complain about the strength of their own preferred weapon and style, but always about the weapons of those who used to kill him on the field?


My respect goes to the few who are not like this, and are really trying to improve the gameplay with their suggestions.


P.s.: Nah, it wasn't me. I always play games with the name Storm[HUN] with usually the |>B<| tag (http://bunker.aaxxs.com) added. In M&B spec chars not allowed so my name looks like __B__Storm_HUN (Optionally with a number at the end in case of cRPG characters)

[Janis_Corp]

Light cav is not easy to play for many peoples.
you pay almost every 3-5 round over 1100 gold pieces
the health for light cav are poor,rushes you from the horse then its over because u need 3-5 sec to stand up after the horse get smashed. in this seconds enemy throwing ,pikemen,arrows and sword cuts.
so when u horse falls its over,and light cav falls damn fast.2 arrows or 1 throwing javelines are enough

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

First off, I'm a medium cavalry guy (courser, lammelar armor, heavy lance), and I love playing as cavalry. It's epicly fun.

The non-fun issue with cavalry is survivability. As my name suggests, cavalry currently is NOT the proffession one should seek if one desire long life. The problems is a combination of factors:

-Throwing weapons are very popular. Throwing weapons allow any infantryman to easily counter cavalry in such a way that the cavalry cannot fight back. They can hit at a distance, we cannot. If we try to close that distance to attack, we make ourselves vulnerable to a storm of darts, axes, and javelins.

-High teir throwing weapons do a disproportionate amount of damage with regard to horses hit points. It takes one or two axes or lances to kill a horse.

-Horse HP is not high. It is certainly not high enough to survive direct encounters with throwers. It is not high enough to charge into a group of infantry and expect to survive.

-Not only are horses rather delicate, but they are very expensive. Perhaps a bit unfairly so, although it is certainly not impossible to use a horse every round.

-Most people use the more delicate horse (courser), because said horse has a higher chance of surviving than a much more expensive Destrier. Destrier has more HP, but that is useless, given the circumstances. Any non-tank horse is too delicate to fulfill the role of a decisive, hard charging unit. So instead people have to ninja with their horses, which is fun, but kind of weird.

What do I actually suggest? Idk. Perhaps increase horse HP by a tiny bit? We certainly pay enough gold. Perhaps make some of the high-tier throwing weapons less powerfull, or eliminate them entirely (there is no reason to have a lolkill weapon like throwing lances). Either way it's a damage/hp relationship that's the problem. Either the horse is to squishy, or the darts too pointy. Or I'm just really bad.

[UrLukur]

First off, I'm a medium cavalry guy (courser, lammelar armor, heavy lance), and I love playing as cavalry. It's epicly fun.

The non-fun issue with cavalry is survivability. As my name suggests, cavalry currently is NOT the proffession one should seek if one desire long life. The problems is a combination of factors:

Sure. Nobody live forever.

-Throwing weapons are very popular. Throwing weapons allow any infantryman to easily counter cavalry in such a way that the cavalry cannot fight back. They can hit at a distance, we cannot. If we try to close that distance to attack, we make ourselves vulnerable to a storm of darts, axes, and javelins.

True, but when they will be fixed it will be better. You can also play cav thrower, it's hard to play class but very powerful. Plazek is great example how to play like one.

-High teir throwing weapons do a disproportionate amount of damage with regard to horses hit points. It takes one or two axes or lances to kill a horse.

That is throwing and soak and reduction values problem, not horse health problem. Infantry is also one or two hit killed by those, you as cav have it better than those without horses.

-Horse HP is not high. It is certainly not high enough to survive direct encounters with throwers. It is not high enough to charge into a group of infantry and expect to survive.

Horse hp is fine, problem lies in damage system, and more precisely, in mechanic behind armor.
If you attack alone in group, don't count on sure survival. Lone infantry is also doomed charging such group, use teamwork against those, organised charge own such groups.

-Not only are horses rather delicate, but they are very expensive. Perhaps a bit unfairly so, although it is certainly not impossible to use a horse every round.

Expensive ? Not really, they don't cost a lot. Rouncey cost 9k, Destrier 26k. Thats not much. With current upkeep you can count on rouncey, and use destrier from time to time. Or even all the time destrier if you are good enough to tip the balance.

-Most people use the more delicate horse (courser), because said horse has a higher chance of surviving than a much more expensive Destrier. Destrier has more HP, but that is useless, given the circumstances. Any non-tank horse is too delicate to fulfill the role of a decisive, hard charging unit. So instead people have to ninja with their horses, which is fun, but kind of weird.

You can charge from the front and many successful players do this, just don't count on your horse to survive 1221 hits. You 1 or 2 hit kill with your lance.

What do I actually suggest? Idk. Perhaps increase horse HP by a tiny bit? We certainly pay enough gold. Perhaps make some of the high-tier throwing weapons less powerfull, or eliminate them entirely (there is no reason to have a lolkill weapon like throwing lances). Either way it's a damage/hp relationship that's the problem. Either the horse is to squishy, or the darts too pointy. Or I'm just really bad.

It's armor mechanic problem coupled with machinegun throwers who have insane amount of ammo. Tommyyy do just fine on his horse, so it's just you who don't dodge projectiles and can't use range of his lollance.

[Magikarp]

I support boosting horse survivability and charge, but I want more diversity. For instance:
The step from going from an unarmoured horse(Destrier) to an Armoured horse(Warhorse. should give the following ups and downs

• A big manouvrability and speed decrease
• A big increase in armour and health of the horse, and a medium increase in charge abilities.

[Rendar1970]

I like all of Thomeks ideas.  But have a question.


Do horsemen using 1h weapons gain any bonus from charge? I know they get the speed bonus, but what about from charge?

If not, then there should be some horses with the improved HP and Armor, with alot less charge, and slightly same maneuverability as now, but if possible restrict lances from being used on it.  Like a dedicated 1h weapon horse.

Just a thought.  Cause mounted sword and boarders would be penalized greatly for less maneuverability, and it seems like a huge charge bonus wouldnt help that much.

[UrLukur]

I like all of Thomeks ideas.  But have a question.


Do horsemen using 1h weapons gain any bonus from charge? I know they get the speed bonus, but what about from charge?

If not, then there should be some horses with the improved HP and Armor, with alot less charge, and slightly same maneuverability as now, but if possible restrict lances from being used on it.  Like a dedicated 1h weapon horse.

Just a thought.  Cause mounted sword and boarders would be penalized greatly for less maneuverability, and it seems like a huge charge bonus wouldnt help that much.

Sword and board from horseback already owns.

[Thtb]

More hp would be nice, my heavy palfrey gets 1 hit killed by nearly all throwing weapons used, 2hit by bows and cheap x-bows. And falling equals dead, so very often even my teammates would chop mercilessly at my falling form, triggering there dead horse, kill rider - instinct.

[Beauchamp]

this idea goes against skill of individual horseman. having strong unguided tank that runs only in wide circles...

about your question how much is manuevrability worth in exchange for additional HP and CHARGE damage? i can't say really because it would make here many people's pants wet. no really - its worth 10HP/1point manuvrability and +10points in making game more lame being a horseman.

[Whalen207]

HORSES COST TOO DAMN MUCH.
My courser costs more than all my equipment combined x4.
wtf.

[Sultan_Khalifa]

this idea goes against skill of individual horseman. having strong unguided tank that runs only in wide circles...

about your question how much is manuevrability worth in exchange for additional HP and CHARGE damage? i can't say really because it would make here many people's pants wet. no really - its worth 10HP/1point manuvrability and +10points in making game more lame being a horseman.

1+

and thomek if u want to realy fix horsemen

suggest lowering the upkeep for us not adding hp and lowering muvirbalty on light horses its already done Heavy cav!!

but we cant use HC because we dont want to pay 6k every round