cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Callan on July 03, 2011, 06:08:38 am

Title: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Callan on July 03, 2011, 06:08:38 am
Okay not this is just a complete joke, The thrust of a katana is 16 Pierce, REALLY! 16. Thats 2 more than a wooden sword!. And Katanas really need some love, okay there spam weapons and make people rage. So what!. Katana's were used to thrust in battles so noone better reply "but its not a thrusting weapon" because it was. Its just extremely under powered. It needs a bit of love in my opinion. It would be brilliant to just increase the trust to 22 or atleast 20 because this just isnt right :/ xx
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: PhantomZero on July 03, 2011, 07:29:43 am
All the samurai equipment is overpriced and shitty because it's "exotic." Use a different weapons for more pierce.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Callan on July 03, 2011, 08:58:26 am
Just because A weapon is exotic doesn't mean you have to nerf the piss out of its thrust, Its like giving the flambergue 12 cut damage because its "exotic" and "unique".

I mean, I do see the logic in making the pierce damage low because of the curved blade, but logically it should be some more, In japan warriors used the thrust the katanas tip into a heavily armor'd persons chest. That means it must be able to do some pierce. Im not asking for much, Just a TINY buff of pierce :/ xx
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Banok on July 03, 2011, 10:13:40 am
i agree pointed this out before but no one cares. ppl are stupid.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: BlackMilk on July 03, 2011, 11:20:33 am
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4454.msg80071.html#msg80071
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Team_Jacob on July 03, 2011, 12:02:28 pm
Needs a lower str requirement and price to better fit crappy stats or it needs to have better stats to fit the str requirement and price.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Peasant_Woman on July 03, 2011, 12:29:34 pm
All the samurai equipment is overpriced and shitty because it's "exotic." Use a different weapons for more pierce.

HereWeGo.png


Go polearms next retirement. Ninja fast + polestun? Good luck.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Dezilagel on July 03, 2011, 12:39:59 pm
Katana thrust needs a small buff, agreed.

Also, 2h stab needs a buff in general, it needs to be smoothened out
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 03, 2011, 12:58:32 pm
Katana has the worst thrust of the entire game, not counting under 500 gold weapons. The studded warclub, you know that medieval baseball bat, has a 16b stab, while  the katana has a 16p stab. Ever tried thrusting with a baseball bat? I'm sure the katana would do a better job then the warclub. Or the long iron mace with its 20b stab, these weapons are a lot less suited for stabbing than the katana which actually did a good job at stabbing.

That last nerf from 18p to 16p was just completely unnecessary. I would like to have the guy who thought of that explain it here. All I'm asking for is a 19p/20p stab on the katana. That is still a bad stab, but not as completely useless as it is now.

Also what Thomek pointed out, if exotic weapons cost more, be consistent and make chinese weapons expensive too.

Reading these topics I see much people agree that the katana is underpowered so I would like to see the devs do something about it.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: UrLukur on July 03, 2011, 01:03:37 pm
Katana is not UP, it's op.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Kenji on July 03, 2011, 01:09:45 pm
It's been pointed out before, and I definitely agree with katanas needing a thrust boost, but after all this time, I guess I just got used to it.

And yes, these 'exotic' weapons are way too overpriced, especially that wakizashi, paying the repair bills for something cosmetic just ain't cool :|.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 03, 2011, 01:31:44 pm
Katana is not UP, it's op.
:?
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Casimir on July 03, 2011, 01:58:56 pm
are people really complaining about the 9 str requirement on the katana?

I agree that the thrust is hilariously poor and should either be buffed or compensated with higher swing damage (NOT SPEED PLEASE!!)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: zagibu on July 03, 2011, 02:49:01 pm
Just raise it to 18-20p.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 03, 2011, 03:03:30 pm
are people really complaining about the 9 str requirement on the katana?
I don't get it either. It's suicide to use a katana with 9 str.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Team_Jacob on July 03, 2011, 03:14:51 pm
Long hafted blade has more pierce, hurr durr.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 03, 2011, 03:46:26 pm
I never ever will use an Katana but i have tears in my eyes when some people i really like have to fight with this horrible weapon because thats their style.
Miaodao Nodachi etc. are all very good weapons so that miaodao already gets used by european knights which looks a bit silly. So this exotic weapon argument doesnt fit cause Katana is one of the few that are really fucked up.
Either give Katana more cut ore raise stab to at least 20 Pierce.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: LordRichrich on July 03, 2011, 04:41:42 pm
Short weapons have thrust advantage over long weapons in CQC, you stab with the katana, you can stab closer without bounce
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: BlackMilk on July 03, 2011, 04:51:06 pm
Short weapons have thrust advantage over long weapons in CQC, you stab with the katana, you can stab closer without bounce
ehm..no. You cant stab with the katana without bounce the range doesnt matter
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Team_Jacob on July 03, 2011, 05:08:45 pm
I never ever will use an Katana but i have tears in my eyes when some people i really like have to fight with this horrible weapon because thats their style.
Miaodao Nodachi etc. are all very good weapons so that miaodao already gets used by european knights which looks a bit silly. So this exotic weapon argument doesnt fit cause Katana is one of the few that are really fucked up.
Either give Katana more cut ore raise stab to at least 20 Pierce.

Annoying isn't it?

What's worse, seeing tincans with miadao/nodachi or ninjas with longswords/bastard swords? Cause with the current melee balance, that's how it is. The high str tincans want someone fast, long, and has high cut damage. The ninjas want something that is fast, with reasonable length, that has good cut damage for soft targets, and a nice high dmg pierce for tin cans.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 03, 2011, 05:34:00 pm
Anybody remember when the No-dachi had a 16p thrust with pole arm animation? looool good times.


17-19p imo, so it's still relatively useless but can atleast hurt those pesky peasants.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Thomek on July 03, 2011, 05:35:10 pm
Katana last got nerfed because we had once one member, who started a completely unreasonable discussion in the forums to buff the katana into something insane.. It got nerfed because Fasader got annoyed on his silly trolling. After the event, said player left the clan and cRPG altogether.

I was away for those few days or I would have stopped him before he managed to make a fool of himself.

Anyway, dear Fasader, I think we have been collectively been punished enough. Ninja clan member will always have restrictions on what gear to use, and we are quite frustrated because our weapon of choice is not on-par with most other middle to high-end weapons. What we ask is for, is for it to have stats comparable to other 2 handers.. More cut, +2 and a thrust that isn't nearly suicidal. (Nowadays, a bounce on a thrust with the stun is suicidal) 20p would be reasonable. (And feel free to remove the ability to use katana with shield and on horse. Nobody uses it like that, and there are much better options anyway)

If there won't be a buff, I would appreciate some reasoning for why the katana stays like it is, so we can stop these endless whine posts, and not waste anymore time on it.

--------------
Katana as it is now:
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 2


Suggestion:
Buffed Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2

Just to compare it with something:
Heavy Bastard Sword for half the price
weapon length: 105
weight: 2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
Secondary Mode
slots: 2

Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 04, 2011, 12:14:45 am
You are right, I can't gain any money with my samurai character cause I get giganormous repair bills for the katana, and when I accidentally stab in a melee fight, I'm dead. The katana should get a higher stab (20-22 pierce) or at least a (good) price decrease...
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 04, 2011, 12:32:11 am
Katana last got nerfed because we had once one member, who started a completely unreasonable discussion in the forums to buff the katana into something insane.. It got nerfed because Fasader got annoyed on his silly trolling. After the event, said player left the clan and cRPG altogether.

I was away for those few days or I would have stopped him before he managed to make a fool of himself.

Anyway, dear Fasader, I think we have been collectively been punished enough. Ninja clan member will always have restrictions on what gear to use, and we are quite frustrated because our weapon of choice is not on-par with most other middle to high-end weapons. What we ask is for, is for it to have stats comparable to other 2 handers.. More cut, +2 and a thrust that isn't nearly suicidal. (Nowadays, a bounce on a thrust with the stun is suicidal) 20p would be reasonable. (And feel free to remove the ability to use katana with shield and on horse. Nobody uses it like that, and there are much better options anyway)

If there won't be a buff, I would appreciate some reasoning for why the katana stays like it is, so we can stop these endless whine posts, and not waste anymore time on it.

--------------
Katana as it is now:
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 2


Suggestion:
Buffed Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2

Just to compare it with something:
Heavy Bastard Sword for half the price
weapon length: 105
weight: 2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
Secondary Mode
slots: 2


+1 but onyl 36 cut i dont think it should go higher or all spamtards come back to katana.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Casimir on July 04, 2011, 02:33:07 am
I don't get it either. It's suicide to use a katana with 9 str.

Its really not suicide, i've got a 1:1 KD on my 9 str +rest agi alt and hes not even lvl 30 yet, just have to pick your targets and not be a complete fucktard.


Its not what you want for a clan fight but my god its funny on the duel server or for making stupid flanking attacks on the edge of the map.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Seawied on July 04, 2011, 03:11:48 am
Katana last got nerfed because we had once one member, who started a completely unreasonable discussion in the forums to buff the katana into something insane.. It got nerfed because Fasader got annoyed on his silly trolling. After the event, said player left the clan and cRPG altogether.

I was away for those few days or I would have stopped him before he managed to make a fool of himself.

Anyway, dear Fasader, I think we have been collectively been punished enough. Ninja clan member will always have restrictions on what gear to use, and we are quite frustrated because our weapon of choice is not on-par with most other middle to high-end weapons. What we ask is for, is for it to have stats comparable to other 2 handers.. More cut, +2 and a thrust that isn't nearly suicidal. (Nowadays, a bounce on a thrust with the stun is suicidal) 20p would be reasonable. (And feel free to remove the ability to use katana with shield and on horse. Nobody uses it like that, and there are much better options anyway)

If there won't be a buff, I would appreciate some reasoning for why the katana stays like it is, so we can stop these endless whine posts, and not waste anymore time on it.

--------------
Katana as it is now:
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 2


Suggestion:
Buffed Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2

Just to compare it with something:
Heavy Bastard Sword for half the price
weapon length: 105
weight: 2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
Secondary Mode
slots: 2



As much as my wee-a-boo hating self cries out, your post makes too good of an argument for me to deny.

You, sir, earn a +1!
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Mala on July 04, 2011, 02:17:07 pm
But then you have another problen. You have to adjust some other weapons as well.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 04, 2011, 02:17:46 pm
+1 but onyl 36 cut i dont think it should go higher or all spamtards come back to katana.


I think it deserves more cutting damage then the bastard swords because it was mainly a cutting weapon, and 1 point of damaeg won't encourage so many people to go katana again, because they can you a 2 meter giant lolsword which is only a little bit slower.


Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Thomek on July 04, 2011, 04:17:59 pm
Its really not suicide, i've got a 1:1 KD on my 9 str +rest agi alt and hes not even lvl 30 yet, just have to pick your targets and not be a complete fucktard.

Its not what you want for a clan fight but my god its funny on the duel server or for making stupid flanking attacks on the edge of the map.

okay, but you are one of the best players dear Casimir.. (!)

Now whats yout K:D with your other sword?
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Lech on July 05, 2011, 12:36:33 am

Katana as it is now:
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 2


Suggestion:
Buffed Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 20 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2



Proper Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 1
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 05, 2011, 12:37:50 am
Proper Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 1


Hello nerfed Archer-Katana
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Lech on July 05, 2011, 12:39:13 am
Hello nerfed Archer-Katana

Kk, they can get Langer Messer, Military Sickle and that cool mace anyway, why not katana ?
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 05, 2011, 12:45:08 am
I guess those ninjas dont want their main weapon to be an archersword. They want it a bit buffed so it doesnt suck in combat for its current price.
And tbh i also dont want to see every second archer with a katana.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Lech on July 05, 2011, 12:51:20 am
I'm all for weeaboo hate, but i can agree with proper pricing IF all those items will be mid-tier equipment (not on par with best choices but not useless either). Those ninjas want all they toys to be top tier choices while those items don't deserve to be top tier.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 05, 2011, 01:07:31 am
tbh with the suggested buffs the katana still wouldnt be a top choice but it would be ok.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Team_Jacob on July 05, 2011, 03:05:05 am
I'm all for weeaboo hate, but i can agree with proper pricing IF all those items will be mid-tier equipment (not on par with best choices but not useless either). Those ninjas want all they toys to be top tier choices while those items don't deserve to be top tier.

You are a dumbass. "They" (not just the ninja clan) want the katana to better represent the price it costs to use. There's a reason why the danish and german swords have great stats and also a high price. Currently, the katana isn't as good as a longsword or bastard sword that cost much less to use. The solution is to either reduce the cost of the katana or increase the damage.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 05, 2011, 11:01:13 am
I'm all for weeaboo hate, but i can agree with proper pricing IF all those items will be mid-tier equipment (not on par with best choices but not useless either). Those ninjas want all they toys to be top tier choices while those items don't deserve to be top tier.
Sure a katana doesnt deserve to be a top tier weapon. It was only the dominant weapon in an entire nation for two centuries and has become the symbol of feudal Japan as a whole so I'm sure it was quite shitty.

But just look at the stab
Katana:                 16p
Studded Warclub: 16b
Long Iron Mace:    20b
Wakizashi             19p

I know the katana wasnt a weapon intended for thrusting, but it did a pretty good job anyway. It sure more fit for thrusting than the long iron mace or the warclub. Also the Wakizashi has 19p, while its thrust capabilities are comparable. So katana deserves a 19p/20p thrust, it doesnt make the weapon good or worthy of the price tag. It just makes the thrust more as it should be.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: BlackMilk on July 05, 2011, 11:08:05 am
Sure a katana doesnt deserve to be a top tier weapon. It was only the dominant weapon in an entire nation for two centuries and has become the symbol of feudal Japan as a whole so I'm sure it was quite shitty.

But just look at the stab
Katana:                 16p
Studded Warclub: 16b
Long Iron Mace:    20b
Wakizashi             19p
Knife: 16 pierce
War Axe : 19 Cut (more dmg than 16p)

Or take a look at this :
Staff
weight: 1
speed rating: 103
weapon length: 128
thrust damage: 16 blunt

swing damage: 16 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown

Price : 346

Katana
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 2
Price : 9,376

Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 05, 2011, 11:23:17 am
Staff
speed rating: 103
price: 346
Hey, didn't you have to pay for the speed of the katana? Seems speed is awfully cheap.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Lech on July 05, 2011, 12:18:17 pm
Sure a katana doesnt deserve to be a top tier weapon. It was only the dominant weapon in an entire nation for two centuries and has become the symbol of feudal Japan as a whole so I'm sure it was quite shitty.


Lol, it was not primary weapon used on battlefield. And it was shitty.
You are a dumbass. "They" (not just the ninja clan) want the katana to better represent the price it costs to use. There's a reason why the danish and german swords have great stats and also a high price. Currently, the katana isn't as good as a longsword or bastard sword that cost much less to use. The solution is to either reduce the cost of the katana or increase the damage.

You are dumbass. The solution is to reduce the cost and reduce the stats of Katana.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Camaris on July 05, 2011, 12:39:03 pm
Reduce stats even more? ;) lol
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 05, 2011, 12:58:06 pm
Lol, it was not primary weapon used on battlefield.
True. During the middle ages, the primary weapon was spear, regardless of country.
And it was shitty.
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
TLDR version: Katana is better at cutting, worse at thrusting, worse at guarding capacity and faster

About ARMA: ARMA - the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts, is an educational non-profit organization dedicated to the study and practice of historical fencing and the exploration and promotion of our Western martial heritage.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: v/onMega on July 05, 2011, 01:10:57 pm
I see, since my evaluation shit hasn't changed.

This whole topic, katana stats and price last was adressed some months ago.

Katana still is overpriced, its stab is a joke.

Over and out.

P.S Everything in this mod always takes around 3 or more months to change, everybody should know this by now xD
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Corwin on July 05, 2011, 01:39:32 pm
I don't understand the whole fuss: It is clear that bastard and longsword are currently better, and I don't think weaboos whould be punished or being weaboos.
Add +2 more points to cutting and most will agree it is OK. It remains short, but fast, and with +2 more points to cut deadly weapon.
Or, reduce its price for another three or so thousands, so that it is cheaper than longsword. But, I would prefer first option, especially having in mind that ninjas usually don't have enough PS for decent damage.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 05, 2011, 01:43:04 pm
Yeah we know, Mega  8-)

Also, those that missed Mega evaluation a few weeks ago:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: UrLukur on July 05, 2011, 02:01:29 pm
I don't understand the whole fuss: It is clear that bastard and longsword are currently better, and I don't think weaboos whould be punished or being weaboos.
Add +2 more points to cutting and most will agree it is OK. It remains short, but fast, and with +2 more points to cut deadly weapon.
Or, reduce its price for another three or so thousands, so that it is cheaper than longsword. But, I would prefer first option, especially having in mind that ninjas usually don't have enough PS for decent damage.

So they should invest in power strike.

So khorin, you want to have footwork advanatage and 2 hit kills in the same time  ? Really ?

I see, since my evaluation shit hasn't changed.

This whole topic, katana stats and price last was adressed some months ago.

Katana still is overpriced, its stab is a joke.

Over and out.

P.S Everything in this mod always takes around 3 or more months to change, everybody should know this by now xD

So why despite it's 'inferior weapon' you maintained exact same k:d ratio when using HBS, obviously speed count for something for your opponents, even if you don't feel it so much.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Casimir on July 05, 2011, 03:44:10 pm
okay, but you are one of the best players dear Casimir.. (!)

Now whats yout K:D with your other sword?

2.1: 1, and that's due to my plate keeping me alive.

If i had fully heirloomed katana and lamellar armour i'm sure it'd be similarly successful, its hardly a way to judge it is it.

I do agree that the Katana is UP and should receive a rebuff, the nerfing did make it a bit silly. However, the 9str requirement really isn't something to be disregarded.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Peasant_Woman on July 05, 2011, 04:01:42 pm
However, the 9str requirement really isn't something to be disregarded.

I personally wouldn't mind if the str requirement was increased to compensate. 10 or 11str would be better as you could use it at requirement and end up with a non-optimum build or go to 12 str 4 PS and have less overall wpf/athletics but better killing power.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Gurnisson on July 05, 2011, 04:12:33 pm
or go to 12 str 4 PS and have less overall wpf/athletics but better killing power.

Do that now to glance less. You don't have to have 9 strength because that's its requirement. :lol:

Also, the stab is a joke. It's more of a liability than a decent option. Just remove it already, and maybe give one or two more cut damage on swings.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 05, 2011, 05:09:04 pm
Or add 3 stab damage. If the katana gets its stab removed then why the hell does the studded warclub have a stab. If something with a clear pointy end cant stab, why should a baseball bat have a stab (an even better one on that note)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 09, 2011, 02:32:02 pm
I hope this gets done soon, I just died fighting a naked guy because my katana bounced on his head, and he turned my face into salad with his German lolsword...
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Thomek on July 09, 2011, 02:42:04 pm
Also.. the 9 str req is only for joke builds. I've tried it in the past, before thrust got nerfed even, and when the kata had more cut.

Ninja Clan (tm) only recommend a minimum of 12 str, for an extreme agi-build. (According to our own Ninja build thread in our forums)

Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Rumblood on July 09, 2011, 05:57:58 pm
Chiming in, the thrust needs to be buffed, not the cut. Especially with even normal thrusting swords having that extra "whiff" factor since its nerf.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: DrKronic on July 10, 2011, 08:23:58 am
I own both a MW longsword and a MW katana

MW longsword @ 1.8 weight MW Katana @ 1.3 weight
100 speed           103 speed
39 cut                 38 cut
25 pierce             17 pierce
106 length            95 length
333 repair            464 repair cost

I mean compared side by side its obvious which one is better, longsword hands down, katana has a speed advantage but not really once you count weight and the stun effect of heavy weapons into it (katana gets stunned by about every weapon after the weight nerf)


and similar weapons in the repair cost of the katana kick its ass or you have guys nearly same speed omniblock 1h weapons like mw espadas and italian swords or even war hammers (which are all close enough in speed to a katana, combined with katana damage doesn't break shields)

katana's nerf was so major it left it being basically weaker than a bastard sword in alot of ways, the people who argue for its potency have never used one, in fact guys like Urlukur are pure 1h'ers forever

I'd add weight back into the katana, the fact now that people are just using MW war spears/red tassel spears/iron staffs etc at same kind of top tier speeds(97+) but with the polestun they're doing it like katanas never could as high agi spammers
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: UrLukur on July 10, 2011, 11:39:01 am
katana's nerf was so major it left it being basically weaker than a bastard sword in alot of ways, the people who argue for its potency have never used one, in fact guys like Urlukur are pure 1h'ers forever

I'd add weight back into the katana, the fact now that people are just using MW war spears/red tassel spears/iron staffs etc at same kind of top tier speeds(97+) but with the polestun they're doing it like katanas never could as high agi spammers
I used 2h weapons, when i loot them from the ground for lolz. Always did fine, even with 1 wpf in them.

Red tassel lack damage, even with 6 ps it whiffs a lot with it's swings. It's great weapon for 1h+shield but thats it.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 11, 2011, 09:43:24 pm
NOOOOOOO! They didn't buff the katana, well atleast they didnt nerf it.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: BlackMilk on July 11, 2011, 09:44:55 pm
NOOOOOOO! They didn't buff the katana, well atleast they didnt nerf it.
They nerfed it btw. MW got 102 instead of 103 speed now
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Teeth on July 11, 2011, 10:00:35 pm
Didn't all weapons got that? My miaodao lost 2 speed though, but that is justified.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Belmont on July 11, 2011, 10:36:27 pm
Remove thrust, increase cut damage by 1 or 2 and the weapon is a lot better.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Banok on July 12, 2011, 03:10:29 am
make it around 20p, 40c and 99 speed. req 12.

plus i am no longer bias since I switched to hafted blade long ago and never intend to use a crappy 95 reach katana again.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Belmont on July 12, 2011, 03:56:43 am
make it around 20p, 40c and 99 speed. req 12.

plus i am no longer bias since I switched to hafted blade long ago and never intend to use a crappy 95 reach katana again.

That's really overpowered...

EDIT: Just compare it to other swords and you will see why.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Gafgarion on July 12, 2011, 05:12:06 am
Do that now to glance less. You don't have to have 9 strength because that's its requirement. :lol:

Also, the stab is a joke. It's more of a liability than a decent option. Just remove it already, and maybe give one or two more cut damage on swings.

After playing with the Katana for the 2 months that I've been playing cRPG/warband I vote this as an option:

+2 Cut, fix stab.

I wouldn't say remove the stab (otherwise it's just an underpowered Miadao), I would just ask for it to be fixed in such a way that stabbing can actually do something rather than glance.

Then it would be a viable weapon as a MW (probably not as a regular Katana).

Was hoping for a Katana buff, but instead got a -1 Speed and +5-10% cost increase.

 :cry:

Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Siiem on July 12, 2011, 08:12:41 am

Was hoping for a Katana buff, but instead got a -1 Speed and +5-10% cost increase.

 :cry:

Like everyone else...
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 12, 2011, 10:21:30 am
Was hoping for a Katana buff, but instead got a -1 Speed and +5-10% cost increase.

 :cry:

The day the patch arrived Torak said that he hopes they finally fixed the katana. I answered "They probably nerfed it again".
That's cRPG. I'll just have to learn to live with it again.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: DesertEagle on July 12, 2011, 10:44:51 am
Soon they will demand trust attack for scimitar stating that it was used fot it....
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Belmont on July 14, 2011, 01:05:50 am
I talked to Urist a few days ago on IRC and he pointed out to me that with the new armor values the katana received a small buff since glances are mostly due to bad positioning now. I have had some success using the stab since the new patch but I have 7 PS and it still glances quite a lot, mostly on 40+ armor. Two extra pierce damage would solve most of the glance issues.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 14, 2011, 05:49:42 pm
I also noticed that 5% of my suicidal katana stabs actually interrupt the enemy now. I even killed someone with it! (probably because they know from expirience it's not worth blocking it, just take the free kill, but he had very low hp, he had like 2 javs in his chest)

But it's still quite dumb that steel baseball bats and wooden practice swords equal and overpower a katana in stabbing damage...
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Paul on July 15, 2011, 10:10:21 am
I recently rolled a katana spammer(atm lvl 22, 9 str, 21 agi) and it's super effective. Noone seems to be able to  keep up with its speed, even at this low level. It really profits a lot from the soak nerf. From my point of view it's fine.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 15, 2011, 01:29:18 pm
You actually ever stabbed at someone wearing better armour then peasant robes? It's plain suicide, the best you can hope for is that your enemy gets stunnd, so he can't finish you.
And with upkeep increase, agi builds are more effective since people use less armour, and with dodgeable arrows agi builds are getting shot less.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Belmont on July 15, 2011, 02:52:36 pm
I recently rolled a katana spammer(atm lvl 22, 9 str, 21 agi) and it's super effective. Noone seems to be able to  keep up with its speed, even at this low level. It really profits a lot from the soak nerf. From my point of view it's fine.

I would really like to see the katana become a decent weapon for all builds and not be limited to "spam" builds, making it more fun to use and less annoying to fight against.

Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.3 - I would keep it the same to make the katana have a negative point
difficulty: 9 - Increase to 12
speed rating: 101 - Decrease by 1
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce - Increase by 3
swing damage: 35 cut - Increase by 2, otherwise it has the same cut damage as a regular bastard sword
slots: 2
Price: 9376

Now let's compare my ideal version of the katana with the longsword, an arguably better weapon.

Longsword
weapon length: 106
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 106
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
slots: 2
Secondary Mode
Price: 6660

The longsword would have 2 less speed than the katana but it has 11 more length points (very important), 0.5 more weight (less weapon stun), one less cut damage but 4 more pierce damage and secondary mode, which can be useful sometimes. EDIT: The longsword is also a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Leshma on July 15, 2011, 02:59:03 pm
Longsword is simply a superior weapon in almost every way.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Ujin on July 15, 2011, 03:47:15 pm
I agree with Belmont's suggestion. For it's price, katana deserves to be a bit better. Otherwise i'd just rather use a longsword/h. bastard sword.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Belmont on July 15, 2011, 04:08:30 pm
<Urist> the current katana stays at it is. you can try organising another, bigger katana model that would deserve your stats. maybe with 99 speed. that would then be a new item entry

We already submitted a completely new katana model a few months ago but sadly it did not make it in the patch due to last minute issues. We also submitted a naginata and yari. Here is a screenshot of the new katana model.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Thomek on July 15, 2011, 04:21:52 pm
Now try to roll around with a longsword, a danish, or a big bad axe Urist, and you will see the difference in effectiveness.

I don't know anyone who is a  consistantly better dueler than you, as I have to try 20 times to beat you when you fight with a 1hander.. I'm sure you are deadly with a Katana build, as with any build. Just try to see the difference..

It's short range forces you to block the first hit of almost any enemy you encounter, even 1handers, harder to cut down passing cav, reaching that guy following you etc etc. In battle, range is king, and it's important to make up for lack of range, to balance out the katana.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Siiem on July 15, 2011, 06:42:56 pm
I don't really see the low range beeing a problem for agi builds with high athletics and low to medium armour.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Thomek on July 15, 2011, 07:34:50 pm
well high athletics and low armor is an attempt to redeem the short range of the katana..

It doesn't change the fact that the weapon is underpowered..  :rolleyes:

Just to quote Fasader recently:
"Katanas already get double cost (not only repair) because of the weeaboo factor. ;)"

Why is this the only wep that got this special nerf? I mean.. "the weaboo factor" - you have even added lots of new weaboo gear since the nerf! Make a choice! Either make weaboo stuff comparable in stats for the ones who want to play like this, or remove it altogether. Make it more pricey if you must, but don't make it worse than the euro gear.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 15, 2011, 07:42:57 pm
Why is this the only wep that got this special nerf?

Same reason why arrows get double the upkeep and nothing else, so carrying the standard two quivers of bodkins means that you are effectively upkeeping 20,232 gold.

Katanas get this special price increase in some attempt to make them more "exotic" and I suppose it works.
Besides, listen to any overly rich player and they cling to "but cost is not a good balancer!" forgetting that most players are new or substantially more poor...
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: BlackMilk on July 15, 2011, 08:21:53 pm
Same reason why arrows get double the upkeep and nothing else, so carrying the standard two quivers of bodkins means that you are effectively upkeeping 20,232 gold.
No, not really. The same reason would be, if every 2h was overpriced, but in this case its just the katana. Thats like only the bodkins would have the double repair thing and the rest not.
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 15, 2011, 08:30:21 pm
No, not really. The same reason would be, if every 2h was overpriced, but in this case its just the katana. Thats like only the bodkins would have the double repair thing and the rest not.

Yes, but unlike every 2Her, both all arrows and the katana have the same thing in common
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katana's Thrust
Post by: Roran Hawkins on August 21, 2011, 04:53:32 pm
bump