cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 04:38:49 am

Title: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 04:38:49 am
Something really needs to be done to limit the amount of people that can be on one team because of the Bannerbalance.  I can't even bring myself to play on the 80 man ATS run server anymore, every single round is dominated by all the ATS guys stacked on 1 team.  Its like its their own private grind server.

Maybe once every 10 rounds or so the side without all the ATS guys will win, and thats just not fun when you get stuck on the other team.  Hats off to the ATS guys for thier coordination, but I think if they want to all be on the same team they need a clan only server.

And I know the first guy that responds is gonna tell me to join a clan and/or "just coordinate with your own team".  Sorry but I don't have time for a clan, every clan I've been in has always had way to many politics, I get enough of that in RL.  And someone please explain to me how I'm supposed to "coordinate" with my team.....I've tried, its like herding cats.  Also don't assume that just because I'm not in a clan I don't want to/try to be competative, I'm not a casual by any means.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Viceroy on January 13, 2011, 04:44:53 am
"Herding Cats" ...  That is the perfect analogy  :)
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 04:48:46 am
And there we have it.  Every build, weapon, item and playstyle has been done to death.  Now on to "NERF TEAMWORK!!!!"

Thanks OP, made my night :)
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 04:48:57 am
Sometimes its even like herding angry wet cats......all they do is hiss and scratch at you.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 04:49:39 am
And there we have it.  Every build, weapon, item and playstyle has been done to death.  Now on to "NERF TEAMWORK!!!!"

Thanks OP, made my night :)

Grow up a bit and at least try to make a counter argument.

EDIT:  And its not about teamwork Gorath, like I said, I applaud you ATS guys and your teamwork.....but how are the rest of us supposed to combat that?  If the answer is "join a clan", well then maybe the server should be made clans only and passworded.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Thomas Dixon on January 13, 2011, 04:50:59 am
Grow up a bit and at least try to make a counter argument.
+ 1
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Reinhardt on January 13, 2011, 04:59:36 am
Something really needs to be done to limit the amount of people that can be on one team because of the Bannerbalance.  I can't even bring myself to play on the 80 man ATS run server anymore, every single round is dominated by all the ATS guys stacked on 1 team.  Its like its their own private grind server.

Maybe once every 10 rounds or so the side without all the ATS guys will win, and thats just not fun when you get stuck on the other team.  Hats off to the ATS guys for thier coordination, but I think if they want to all be on the same team they need a clan only server.

And I know the first guy that responds is gonna tell me to join a clan and/or "just coordinate with your own team".  Sorry but I don't have time for a clan, every clan I've been in has always had way to many politics, I get enough of that in RL.  And someone please explain to me how I'm supposed to "coordinate" with my team.....I've tried, its like herding cats.  Also don't assume that just because I'm not in a clan I don't want to/try to be competative, I'm not a casual by any means.

"Herding cats". Interesting.

But my response wold be that clan members aren't always on the same team, and autobalance tries to do its job regardless. However, they are often on the same team. But think about it: If you're in a clan, you want to be paired with your mates, instead of random people all the time. There's really no solution, aside from waiting for it to be tweaked a bit. Although I have noticed that just because certain clans (excluding the mercs) don't always win when paired together. If you think about it, it's no worse than the old autobalance, but it just makes clans happier.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 04:59:58 am
Grow up a bit and at least try to make a counter argument.

EDIT:  And its not about teamwork Gorath, like I said, I applaud you ATS guys and your teamwork.....but how are the rest of us supposed to combat that?  If the answer is "join a clan", well then maybe the server should be made clans only and passworded.

Well you've already made up your mind that you don't like, nor want to hear, the answer.  The answer is organize, group together and work together efficiently.  Yes, you have to use teamchat, unless there's someone offering a public vent server.  Yes this makes it difficult.  Yes you might want to join a clan.  If you don't want to be in a clan and/or don't like clans why is it the problem or fault of those clans that are successful and populated?  Every FPS game has clans, and almost always those clans stack their members.  Otherwise what's the point of the clan?  We could all just be some large facebook group.

You know when ATS is all on one side that on the other side you have all the DL guys?  All of the BRD guys, the Hospitaller guys, etc.  ATS on one side and often all of the other clan groups on the other.  Follow those guys since they'll probably be grouped together and working as a team as well.  Contribute to THEIR clans success and cause our clans demise.

You say grow up, but it really is a matter of "nerf teamwork".  The banner balancer is the single most epic addition to the game.  Do you have any idea how much it sucked balls through all of cRPG previously to never get to work with your clan-mates?  We weren't the only clan to comment on it either, most every clan felt the same.  We're in a clan to play/work together when we can.  Sure killing each other is fun, but it's far more fun to work together with your mates.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SalmonGod on January 13, 2011, 05:17:15 am
Otherwise what's the point of the clan?  We could all just be some large facebook group.

Usually to compete against other clans in organized events.  Why does an entire clan have to be on one team together in a casual pub game?  The half of ATS on one side can employ teamwork against the half of ATS on the other side.  You're still playing with your teammates, just not all at the same time.  Pub stomping is frowned upon in every online game.

This isn't an issue I feel strongly about, personally, but it looked like that response was needed here.

I'd love to see a free-for-all deathmatch server for crpg.  Just make the multiplier a universal x1.  When team balance is pissing you off, go there.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Ganon on January 13, 2011, 05:20:03 am
This explains why Gorath says everything is fine with 52k equipment.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 05:20:25 am
Usually to compete against other clans in organized events.  Why does an entire clan have to be on one team together in a casual pub game?  The half of ATS on one side can employ teamwork against the half of ATS on the other side.  You're still playing with your teammates, just not all at the same time.  Pub stomping is frowned upon in every online game.

This isn't an issue I feel strongly about, personally, but it looked like that response was needed here.

I'd love to see a free-for-all deathmatch server for crpg.  Just make the multiplier a universal x1.  When team balance is pissing you off, go there.

This.

Minus the free-for-all mode.

EDIT:  To answer you Gorath......I haven't seen any Hospittalors on now that they have the 100, and LLJK is all on thier server.....BRD never has more then 3 guys on as far as I've seen.  Its like a 24/7 ATS pupstomp.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 05:21:56 am
Ok, so we shall turn the 80 man and siege server into clan vs clan only servers then.  Sounds like that's what you're asking, so I can't find any fault in it.  No idea how to do this except PW it and only give the PW to clans.  Pubbies don't get to play if that's what ya'll want.

*You do know that ATS guys get put on the opposing team anyways, regardless of the banner balancing.  There's always one or two of us on the opposing team, if not more, every round.*

The only clan vs clan option previously was strategus, which lags so bad it's unplayable for some of us.  We had no banner balance previously, and frankly it sucked always being stuck with pubbies instead of your clan mates.  If we can turn the server into clan vs clan only then that's fine, but I don't think ya'll really want that.  I understand that ya'll think it's unfair to have 8 clanmates all on vent on the same team while you're in the pubbie group, but it sucks just as bad to be in a clan on vent but stuck with pubbies flailing about in the game as well.  Honestly they can get rid of the banner balance and we won't stop playing, but it'll go back to every man for himself john rambo style if we're all just stuck with pubbies all day again, which isn't nearly as enjoyable as working as a team.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 05:24:01 am
Ok, so we shall turn the 80 man and siege server into clan vs clan only servers then.  Sounds like that's what you're asking, so I can't find any fault in it.  No idea how to do this except PW it and only give the PW to clans.  Pubbies don't get to play if that's what ya'll want.

*You do know that ATS guys get put on the opposing team anyways, regardless of the banner balancing.  There's always one or two of us on the opposing team, if not more, every round.*

Gorath before you go getting your panties all in a bunch, this is more about the balance system in place then you ATS guys.  I think you are a great bunch of guys to play with.....just not when you're all on 1 team pounding the shit out of the server.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SalmonGod on January 13, 2011, 05:26:24 am
I haven't seen too much clan team stacking myself.  I was just responding to your points.

I do, however, find that the autobalancer is unbeleivably aweful, and teams are rarely balanced.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 05:29:25 am
Its like a 24/7 ATS pupstomp.

Well what's it like on the LLJK server, or the Hospitaller server?  Do they not use the banner balance?

Gorath before you go getting your panties all in a bunch
They're not in a bunch, I'm just sighing at the "Clans suck, don't play together" stuff.  It's the same as in every FPS since clans started forming and organizing.  Clan works together on the server, the unclanned guys feel picked on and think it's bullshit, and noone is ever happy.  Granted in cRPG there isn't a server for each clan out there like in most FPS's, but generally it's always the same.  You load up (insert FPS here) and look at the server list and pick which clan server to play on, once inside you see if you get put on the same team as the clan that runs the server, if not you do your best vs an organized squad and either deal with it and have fun, or feel it's unfair and quit to look for another clan server that hopefully has less members online at that moment.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Ecko on January 13, 2011, 05:31:40 am
Sorry about the ATS domination....we play this game to play as one...we have no other place to do it other than the 80 man.


I'm trying to work out a solution so everyone is happy. But right now, ATS is paying 100 bucks and was paying 200 bucks a month for the servers...only now do we get to play as a clan and we are getting our fill.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 05:32:15 am
Well what's it like on the LLJK server, or the Hospitaller server?  Do they not use the banner balance?

Well I never play on the LLJK server for obvious reasons (see we agree on something Gorath!).  And on the Hospitaller server I do see it sometimes, but it is most pronounced on the ATS server.  I believe this is due to the fact that the 100 man server is larger and the Hospitallers appear to be fewer in number, so the team stacking is much more rare.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Deathwind on January 13, 2011, 05:33:37 am
I wouldn't mind one server being clan only. Keep clan stacking to a minimum on the public-accessible servers, please.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Braeden on January 13, 2011, 05:36:31 am
So, let me get this straight.  You'd rather not be allowed to play on the NA 80 than play on it?

Personally, I quite enjoy fighting ATS and their death machine.  It gives a whole new layer to the game.  I'd also point out that I have seen the opposing team roll the ATS-stacked team more than once.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Food on January 13, 2011, 05:40:31 am
Well what's it like on the LLJK server, or the Hospitaller server?  Do they not use the banner balance?

I think the TFO server does have banner balance on to be honest, but we don't really play coordinate things.
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 (http://imgur.com/c61NK)
here is a screenshot taken like 3 minutes ago.


Edited to replace fuckinghuge image
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 05:41:01 am
I'd also point out that I have seen the opposing team roll the ATS-stacked team more than once.

You should hear the morale crushing collective sigh when it happens too.  It'd probably warm your heart :)
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Beans on January 13, 2011, 05:42:57 am
Just make it so that banner balance only puts so many on one team, like 80%

Does the NA 100 man siege have banner balance? It should.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 05:45:24 am
Just make it so that banner balance only puts so many on one team, like 80%

Does the NA 100 man siege have banner balance? It should.

Yes it does.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: EliteDragon on January 13, 2011, 05:54:34 am
So we're trying to discourage skillfull players now? The auto-balancer maintains the balance so that not all clans are on the same team if they are dominating; some get switched to balance it out. Sure it's still a little hard because ATS is a skillful clan, but that's what makes it fun. If you cooperate with your team and form strategies by finding weaknesses during gameplay, you should still be able to put up a challenge. THAT is the definition of gameplay, imho.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 06:05:17 am
The auto-balancer maintains the balance so that not all clans are on the same team if they are dominating; some get switched to balance it out.

I've yet to see the "balancer" do this.  It balances based on kills / banners the first round, then 1 team dominates the rest of the map.  Maybe you get a good balance going with 3 wins to 3 wins and fighting for the map win every 5th map......
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: panderson on January 13, 2011, 06:13:14 am
I've ended up actually against ATS in most of the pug matches.  We do ok and split wins since I also have my clanmates working with me. 

What multiplayer online game have you ever played where clans did not play and work together on pugs?  It's the only practice aside from the real deal.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Kalam on January 13, 2011, 06:17:37 am
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 06:19:05 am
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

orly?
  :D
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Seawied on January 13, 2011, 06:19:43 am
And there we have it.  Every build, weapon, item and playstyle has been done to death.  Now on to "NERF TEAMWORK!!!!"

Thanks OP, made my night :)

Ya... that was pretty much my thought as well. Keep in mind, the sword cuts both ways. There is more than one major clan out there folks, which translates to more clan v clan match ups. By having the same-banner-balancing, you have more organized battles and less "lets run around like chickens with our heads cut off!"

It should be noted that I am not a part of any clan.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on January 13, 2011, 06:21:15 am
it works for you?

me and my clan mate are lucky to ever land on the same team.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Kalam on January 13, 2011, 06:23:39 am
orly?
:D

My honest thoughts on the OP.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SalmonGod on January 13, 2011, 06:24:32 am
I don't understand why autobalance sucks so bad.  I don't really understand what it does.  I'm sure I've seen it take all of the top scoring people from the first round and place them all on one team together on many occassions, which makes absolutely no sense.

If I had any hand in it, I would divide players up into tiers based on their career k/d ratios, then equalize population between teams for each tier.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Braeden on January 13, 2011, 06:34:37 am
SalmonGod...
That is what it does.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 13, 2011, 06:35:01 am
The banner autobalance thing is a vast improvement over the previous autostack system, but it has this one problem, at least on the NA server, and from this issue comes all the complaints I think: when 20 or so ATS players join a single server and get placed on the same team, it drastically unbalances it.  Putting any large amount of half-decent, half-coordinated players against the cRPG mob will almost always result in victory.  This gives that team large XP/gold bonuses.  Thus, other team either rages, complains, or goes to a different server.  ATS is the only clan I've seen large enough to consistently do this, since most other NA clans (including my own) usually have less than half a dozen players on at any given time on a single server.  LLJK don't count because they are goons and worse.  I don't know how things are in Europe, but I'd guess that there are enough big clans there to keep things competitive. 

This isn't ATS' fault, its just the community is small.  Autobalance works by numbers, it can't account for player skill or teamwork. 

How to fix this I don't know.  Probably the easiest, to be frank, would be, when lots of members of a single clan are on, to split up into 2 "squads" with different banners, and so hope you get on opposite teams and can have more organized battles for everyone.  But that depends on the clans, not any coding the cRPG dev team can do.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SalmonGod on January 13, 2011, 06:40:55 am
SalmonGod...
That is what it does.

Seriously?  Damn.  My idea sucks, then.  I've rarely been happy with the results.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Ashrik on January 13, 2011, 07:00:51 am
At first I enjoyed the idea of playing with my teammates.

But as I have played other MMOs and games without a clan/squad/guild, I know the feeling of trying to form a team from individuals while those in charge pretend that going against guilds is totally fair.

Banner balance is a good thing if either A) You enjoy playing with your banner and don't care for the results or B) You enjoy playing with your banner and winning constantly versus pub players. I'll let you guess which category someone like Gorath fits into most.

I can't fault them for using the server options they like most in the server that they pay for, but to pretend that it's good for everyone because "it's good for me" is pretty silly.

There's nothing I like more that shooting someone in the face and hearing them on teamspeak.

If the servers are, themselves, trying to balance autobalance versus bannerbalance, it needs to put a bit more weight on the autobalance side of the scale.


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 (http://imgur.com/c61NK)
See, that's not bad. A lot of us play on this server, sure. But you can't pretend that we just use it to group up and roll with x5 for rounds on end. You won't find a thread like this about that server. Too bad you don't play here Keltesh, since the problem you've noticed doesn't seem to exist there (but omg goons!).
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: panderson on January 13, 2011, 07:07:00 am
I wish I just took a screenshot. 

The other team complains about ATS dominating the map.  They all get switched to that team.  That team (now with ATS) loses. 

They aren't unbeatable if you have an equivalently skilled team who does a half decent job of staying together.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Heroin on January 13, 2011, 07:13:45 am
Look, in a fight between autobalance and banner balance, autobalance wins every time. If autobalance cannot balance the game with people of the same banner on one side, guess what? They get split up.

I played with another member of ATS early yesterday morning for about 4 hours on a server that had less than 30 people on. Banner Balance was on. We didn't get put on the same team ONCE.

Autobalance takes the following into consideration:

1. Level
2. CAREER Kill:Death ratio.
3. (Optional) Banner.

Only # 1 and 2 add "Points" to the pool for calculating team balance. If there are two guys who's level and K:D make them worth 250 points, and one of the two has a banner matching someone on a particular team, THAT is when banner balance comes into play.

In closing, I know people don't necessarily like to hear this, but if playing against clans with unorganized pubs on your team isn't your cup of tea, join a clan. Or, alternatively, make some friends. You don't have to be in a clan, or involved in politics to have friends who simply decide to wear the same banner in order to play together.

Banner balancing is, as Gorath said, the single most awesome addition to this mod since the beginning.


EDIT: OH!, also, Goretooth made his triumphant return to CRPG yesterday after taking a month off. People who are new, or just don't know, may not realize that Goretooth pretty much always wins. So while it may have LOOKED like the ATS war machine was dominating, it was really just Goretooth owning faces while the rest of us rode his coat-tails on easy street.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 07:16:27 am
But as I have played other MMOs and games without a clan/squad/guild, I know the feeling of trying to form a team from individuals while those in charge pretend that going against guilds is totally fair.
Omg, a bunch of pubbies trying to Rambo vs an organized squad with voice com isn't fair?!?!?!?!  Blasphemy.   :rolleyes:

Banner balance is a good thing if either A) You enjoy playing with your banner and don't care for the results or B) You enjoy playing with your banner and winning constantly versus pub players. I'll let you guess which category someone like Gorath fits into most.
Yup, I enjoy rolling pubbies with my team.  That's why 90% of the time I'm on an alt without ATS tags and a completely random banner.  ;)  When I feel like rolling with the squad I swap to my main and join in on the phalanx fun.  And really, a fucking goon trying to claim some kind of moral superiority?  Please.


See, that's not bad. A lot of us play on this server, sure. But you can't pretend that we just use it to group up and roll with x5 for rounds on end. You won't find a thread like this about that server. Too bad you don't play here Keltesh, since the problem you've noticed doesn't seem to exist there (but omg goons!).

You mean like the first few days the server was up and running?  When you all stacked one side with banners and armored horse cav rolled everyone on the server while proclaiming how they were all scrubs, sperg lords and bundle of stickss?
Quote from: Snatch Duster
I would like however, to have goons totally dominate a server and fallen we can.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3369273&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=47
Quote from: Phantom Zero
Quote from: Smoothrich
Unfortunately, chadz actually disabled this last night. EU1 wasn't able to handle the goon horde and they whined until it was taken off until, according to chadz, "people level out more" aka we lose our heavy cav money. 
That is bullshit, pretty much the only thing I liked about that patch was actually being able to play with goons all on the same team.   
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3369273&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=44
 :mrgreen:
Pot and kettle here.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Braeden on January 13, 2011, 07:27:49 am
In closing, I know people don't necessarily like to hear this, but if playing against clans with unorganized pubs on your team isn't your cup of tea, join a clan. Or, alternatively, make some friends. You don't have to be in a clan, or involved in politics to have friends who simply decide to wear the same banner in order to play together.

I'd point out that the TS3 server D'Hara uses is a public NA server teamspeak which is open to anyone who wishes to use tactics.  Kophka's been trying to get people to use it, simply nobody has.  No politics, no clan required.  And if you can't think of a better reason to join it that this, I offer the following.

"Okay, see the guy in black armor?  Yeah, Goretooth.  Crossbows, Jarids, focus fire."
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SPQR on January 13, 2011, 07:36:35 am
Omg, a bunch of pubbies trying to Rambo vs an organized squad with voice com isn't fair?!?!?!?!  Blasphemy.   :rolleyes:
Yup, I enjoy rolling pubbies with my team.  That's why 90% of the time I'm on an alt without ATS tags and a completely random banner.  ;)  When I feel like rolling with the squad I swap to my main and join in on the phalanx fun.  And really, a fucking goon trying to claim some kind of moral superiority?  Please.


You mean like the first few days the server was up and running?  When you all stacked one side with banners and armored horse cav rolled everyone on the server while proclaiming how they were all scrubs, sperg lords and bundle of stickss?http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3369273&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=47That is bullshit, pretty much the only thing I liked about that patch was actually being able to play with goons all on the same team.   
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3369273&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=44
 :mrgreen:
Pot and kettle here.

You messed up your quotes.

Anyway, the reason this isn't an issue with LLJK is because having extra goons on your team is as much of a liablity as an asset.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: PhantomZero on January 13, 2011, 08:24:20 am
Another reason is when LLJK get split up we prefer to attack other LLJK members first, this is due to the high level of clan infighting. Resulting in a balanced game because all LLJK are dead (except one) before the 3 minute mark.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: WaltF4 on January 13, 2011, 09:12:30 am
Autobalance takes the following into consideration:

1. Level
2. CAREER Kill:Death ratio.
3. (Optional) Banner.

Only # 1 and 2 add "Points" to the pool for calculating team balance. If there are two guys who's level and K:D make them worth 250 points, and one of the two has a banner matching someone on a particular team, THAT is when banner balance comes into play.

Maybe the banners should increase the player's value instead of being a tie breaker. The increase could be proportional to the number of players with the same banner. I did get to see the ATS guys stacked pretty deep tonight on two maps in a row: once with, once against. Both were ugly, and I can see why people might complain.

Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Helrekkr on January 13, 2011, 09:15:25 am
There's also one other thing to consider.

I've seen, more than once, people with good K:D get switched over to the "losing" team. They promptly go "bah, switched over to the losers, time to get out the cheap gear".

Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Food on January 13, 2011, 09:27:51 am
Anyway, the reason this isn't an issue with LLJK is because having extra goons on your team is as much of a liablity as an asset.
This is definitely true.

And yeah I'll pretty much always go after someone in green before anyone else I see unless there is a thrower nearby. LLJK tears are the most valuable to harvest.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Kaelaen on January 13, 2011, 10:01:45 am
Was playing a bit in the ATS server and did notice the domination mentioned here.  Teamwork with randoms isn't too difficult, just look for someone who looks like they know what their doing and steal their kills give them ranged support.  It's not like most people want to lose, I am seeing tons of teamwork going on from the supposed 'unorganized mob.'  A lot of it isn't spoken, but it's definitely team work like when some guy wasn't making much of an effort to close the distance to me, rather circling around to make me run out in the open.  I think it was teamwork anyway, pretty sure he was aware archers get tunnel vision and can't hear horses until they're like 3 feet away.

The only team orders I see that never works on the mob is the suggestion to hold position.  Someone tried it for four rounds because we were getting slaughtered by cavalry.  Next round, half the team was out in the field again.  Hilarious.   :D

Anyway I agree with a comment posted in the thread earlier - it just adds a nice new dimension to the game. 
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: krampe on January 13, 2011, 12:22:35 pm
I see dumb people and they don't know they are dumb!

If can't break the ATS stack ownage lead to whine by losers domination gold farm streak, change your banner to ATS banner.
It's up to you, they can't force you to not use it and they still got the chance to play together.
I saw suprisingly many yellow people lasttime HRE did a 10 rounds streak :P
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Camaris on January 13, 2011, 12:28:39 pm
Thats exactly what i would do ;)
Just change your Banner.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Thomas Dixon on January 13, 2011, 01:45:28 pm
Their our a lot of good clan the problem is the only ones with Ats numbers are EU Ats have a wide skill range so they can handle anything (were is the spartan armor you guys were making) don't turn banner balance off put 2 clans against them that's why we have diplomacy right ????
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Ashrik on January 13, 2011, 03:29:01 pm
And really, a fucking goon trying to claim some kind of moral superiority?  Please.
You make it really easy, since your claim to "moral superiority" seems to only involve not posting on a forum that you appear to visit every day.
Quote
Pot and kettle here.
Weird, you seem to have quoted someone who isn't me when talking about an event that I wasn't present for in a thread with a picture of goons evenly split between two teams. Oh, but Snatch Duster said he wants to dominate on a server!!! Logic fail there, Gorath.

As said earlier, all players with small clans or no clans should just wear an ATS, Hospitaller, or other banner. Only way to make the game more fair for them.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Chasab on January 13, 2011, 03:35:24 pm
the answer is to know who owns which server, and before joining set your banner to the correct one.

Anytime i join the ats server, i have the ATS banner.

Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Tai Feng on January 13, 2011, 03:59:34 pm
Nvm
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: kongxinga on January 13, 2011, 04:01:00 pm
Well public teamwork can never beat private ghosting on teamspeak or its equivalents. I won't be too concerned if medieval men-at-arms had radios and spy satellites and the ability to come back from the dead to tell others valuable intel. That is not the case though.

It is not a problem unique to warband. Pretty much the only way of preventing this breaking of fog of war is to cram all the participants in one location and referee them, as is the case of more serious wargame simulations. Or don't play with munchkin types who think hitting your CVBG which was spotted by a sub you sank before it could surface for communications (the other guy phoned in with the intel) is a sign of superior intellect/skill/whatever.

Unfortunately the only solution to clan stack is to join the clan stack by switching to the clan banners when you go to the server. On EU I will use fleur de lys to get on Pecores stack, ATS banner on the ATS, goon banner on goon server, DRZ on where they often appear etc. Once you get on the stack you can go afk and get x5. The clan stack is really that bad.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Thomek on January 13, 2011, 04:18:07 pm
Dunno how bad it is on NA servers, but I think it's working great on Eu1.

You can see small teams of 2-3 friends, not necessarily clans working together in same outfit, for the first time I can regularly play with Ninjas, and there's a reason to be on TS. I don't think any EU clan is big enough to tip the scale on a full server.

Best thing happened to cRPG in a long time.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 04:26:30 pm
I agree. This has been great. Finally some teamwork!
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: balbaroth on January 13, 2011, 04:37:12 pm
switching banner imo is not a viable solution , first of all , i'd like to say first of all banner balance is a great idea to play with friends , gather on teamspeak and have lots of fun , tho balance has to be taken into consideration , a few nights ago there was ats vs hospitallier  on the 80 server , it was freaking awesome , 

but when one clan is alone  , the balance is definatly not working properly , clans should stop being homers and diss people here that i think is a legitimate complain  :p its easy to say use teamwork , but most of thoses people arent on vent or TS , most of theses people dont have dead people telling you where the enemy is on vent or TS  ,

was my 2 cents on this ,  but i still think its a great idea but in practice hard to balance
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: downer on January 13, 2011, 05:18:56 pm
Awwwww, Gorath is stalking us again. Cute.

It is very true that LLJK target each other. I wear a Heraldic tabard for just this purpose. I will wade through other people just to kill a goon.

Banner balance is fine. I get killed by a clan using teamwork and tactics, abloo bloo bloo.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SPQR on January 13, 2011, 06:06:29 pm
I think some of the issue is that there are not many NA clans. Strategus is mainly to blame for this because the smaller NA clans stand little to no chance on their own against the many large EU clans so people end up joining the larger clans or merging their clans together to be viable (see the recent NA merger). At this point we basically just have LLJK and NE left with probably less than a half dozen other smaller NA clans.

If there were more NA clans one clan may get put on one team, while another is balanced onto the other team which would help even things out. However, when there is the same number of servers as major clans this is unlikely to happen.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: krampe on January 13, 2011, 06:25:13 pm
I think some of the issue is that there are not many NA clans. Strategus is mainly to blame for this because the smaller NA clans stand little to no chance on their own against the many large EU clans so people end up joining the larger clans or merging their clans together to be viable (see the recent NA merger). At this point we basically just have LLJK and NE left with probably less than a half dozen other smaller NA clans.

If there were more NA clans one clan may get put on one team, while another is balanced onto the other team which would help even things out. However, when there is the same number of servers as major clans this is unlikely to happen.

ATS and LLJK are the biggest clans in all of Strategus!
No EU Clan has so many members (can't say that for DRZ because many have strange names and they "classify" their roster for spying anyway).
There are many small EU clans, just see Turks, Guards, Ninja, Nordmen, RuConquista, DenBitre, HRE etc. where are only ~5 or so on a server at the same time, but that is often enough.

That way it isn't such a big problem because we DON'T have so huge clans.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SPQR on January 13, 2011, 06:55:43 pm
ATS and LLJK are the biggest clans in all of Strategus!
No EU Clan has so many members (can't say that for DRZ because many have strange names and they "classify" their roster for spying anyway).
There are many small EU clans, just see Turks, Guards, Ninja, Nordmen, RuConquista, DenBitre, HRE etc. where are only ~5 or so on a server at the same time, but that is often enough.

That way it isn't such a big problem because we DON'T have so huge clans.

LLJK is big because it's a goon clan. ATS is huge because it used to be about 8 different clans who all merged together because they couldn't do much in strategus on their own. But what happens, I think, is a self-sustaining cycle. Small clans have trouble recruiting because people would rather join clans that can accomplish things in strategus, thus small clans can't accomplish much in strategus, so they end up quitting and joining the large clans. Ect

The EU playerbase is much larger than the NA ones and so smaller clans have a larger field of people to recruit from. On top of that there are many more EU clans so they can more easily form up into alliances to survive. For NA, your choices are: LLJK and ATS for alliances.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: krampe on January 13, 2011, 07:07:26 pm
LLJK is big because it's a goon clan. ATS is huge because it used to be about 8 different clans who all merged together because they couldn't do much in strategus on their own. But what happens, I think, is a self-sustaining cycle. Small clans have trouble recruiting because people would rather join clans that can accomplish things in strategus, thus small clans can't accomplish much in strategus, so they end up quitting and joining the large clans. Ect

The EU playerbase is much larger than the NA ones and so smaller clans have a larger field of people to recruit from. On top of that there are many more EU clans so they can more easily form up into alliances to survive. For NA, your choices are: LLJK and ATS for alliances.

You realise that you disagree yourself in your own post?
8 small NA clans merged to do something in strat but in eu they form an alliance to survive? so na clans can't ally?
na merges, eu ally. exactly what i said, many small clans vs one big clan.
That EU has a bigger playerbase is true so we have more small clans than NA would have.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Boss_Awesome on January 13, 2011, 07:16:50 pm
I really like the banner balancer as is.  Of course ATS is gonna roll a bunch of unclanned people if that's the situation.  Usually there are other clans arrayed against them.  I haven't even really noticed a difference being on their team or not.  But I always bring clanmates with me.  If you really have a problem beating them then just change to an ATS banner yourself and you will get balanced to be on their side most of the time. 

I'd be really really upset if a bunch of whiney people got the banner balancer removed.  I really enjoy working with my clanmates on a team and practicing for strategus. 

There has never been a game in video game history where a group of random casual players could stand their ground consistently against an organized clan.  Just doesn't happen. 
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: SPQR on January 13, 2011, 07:25:52 pm
You realise that you disagree yourself in your own post?
8 small NA clans merged to do something in strat but in eu they form an alliance to survive? so na clans can't ally?
na merges, eu ally. exactly what i said, many small clans vs one big clan.
That EU has a bigger playerbase is true so we have more small clans than NA would have.

Who exactly would these small NA clans ally with? There are TWO land-owning NA clans(Northern Empire is one political bloc) to choose from as allies.

On the other hand there are TWENTY FOUR European clans that own land and control the lions share of the map.

I mean, why do you think there are almost no small NA clans? Do you think North American players just have a herd mentality?

The truth is the game is mainly populated by Europeans, so the majority of the clans are European, and the majority of the battles take place on European servers. This means the NA players end up having to band together in larger groups in order to be competitive.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Miley on January 13, 2011, 07:29:51 pm
Your sig is LOL, Gorath!
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Keltesh on January 13, 2011, 07:31:07 pm
I really like the banner balancer as is.  Of course ATS is gonna roll a bunch of unclanned people if that's the situation.  Usually there are other clans arrayed against them.  I haven't even really noticed a difference being on their team or not.  But I always bring clanmates with me.  If you really have a problem beating them then just change to an ATS banner yourself and you will get balanced to be on their side most of the time. 

I'd be really really upset if a bunch of whiney people got the banner balancer removed.  I really enjoy working with my clanmates on a team and practicing for strategus. 

There has never been a game in video game history where a group of random casual players could stand their ground consistently against an organized clan.  Just doesn't happen.

And yet this is not a problem in other games.  In crpg. We have such a small community with only 3 NA battle servers.  In other games I could just join up on any number of servers that don't have/don't allow team stacking.  In crpg we don't have that option.  Maybe the balancer just needs more options that server admins can use.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Miley on January 13, 2011, 07:34:40 pm
Grow up a bit and at least try to make a counter argument.

EDIT:  And its not about teamwork Gorath, like I said, I applaud you ATS guys and your teamwork.....but how are the rest of us supposed to combat that?  If the answer is "join a clan", well then maybe the server should be made clans only and passworded.
I agree. How are new people supposed to level up? It's also an unfair thing to do, because what if the other team isn't at all organized? It's just a group of players that don't know eachother and are not communicating on TS or Ventrilo.

And if you don't like what they're doing, you can always come to cRPG_The_Fallen_Ones if there's people there. You could also ask chadz to take it away, too.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Braeden on January 13, 2011, 07:40:00 pm
Who exactly would these small NA clans ally with? There are TWO land-owning NA clans(Northern Empire is one political bloc) to choose from as allies.

On the other hand there are TWENTY FOUR European clans that own land and control the lions share of the map.

I mean, why do you think there are almost no small NA clans? Do you think North American players just have a herd mentality?

The truth is the game is mainly populated by Europeans, so the majority of the clans are European, and the majority of the battles take place on European servers. This means the NA players end up having to band together in larger groups in order to be competitive.

Ahem.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Kophka on January 13, 2011, 07:44:49 pm
Alrighty you yahoos, I've already given so many people this information, and saw no changes, but I'm gonna try one more time.

There IS a Public TeamSpeak 3 server for NA players, and one for EU players

NA : dallas.jestservers.com port 7400. You can stay in the lobby, you can go to the crpg channel, or you can even make your own temporary or semi-permanent channel.

EU : 78.46.65.211 port 9987

With this information available, you people who whine have no one to blame but yourselves for not getting in there, and trying to make teamwork and tactics happen.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: krampe on January 13, 2011, 07:47:20 pm
Who exactly would these small NA clans ally with? There are TWO land-owning NA clans(Northern Empire is one political bloc) to choose from as allies.

On the other hand there are TWENTY FOUR European clans that own land and control the lions share of the map.

I mean, why do you think there are almost no small NA clans? Do you think North American players just have a herd mentality?

The truth is the game is mainly populated by Europeans, so the majority of the clans are European, and the majority of the battles take place on European servers. This means the NA players end up having to band together in larger groups in order to be competitive.

EU has a more player though most land is owned by EU clans sounds logical. But small clans can still ally with LLJK or ATS? EDIT: AND D'HARAN LEGION!! :D
Like we did with Brigade or Nordmen did with DRZ? How many real neutral eu clans are there which are not alligned either to DRZ or the Brigade?
LLJK owns a lot of land they could give a village or castle to a minor clan if they whish to claim their player base.
Even ATS could split up into 8 clans who are all allied, still be the same faction in Strategus and would not dominate a server so persistent.
What do you think EU server would look like if the clans who call themself UIF decide to use one banner?

Don't know if NA has a herding mentality but as you mention it, yes probably because NA is mostly one country (2 with canada), EU are lots of different countrys which form a union. ;)
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Heroin on January 13, 2011, 08:31:36 pm
but most of thoses people arent on vent or TS , most of theses people dont have dead people telling you where the enemy is on vent or TS

For the record, we don't do this. ATS considers ghosting an unfair advantage, and so we simply don't do it. If a person is dead, they cease to convey information about the game in vent. We DO, however, watch each other's back and tell each other things while we're alive, which is fine, imo.

The only time a dead man talks in vent to convey information about the game is when there is 1 guy left, and we don't know where he is. In that case, the only question asked and answered in our vent is this: "Is he fighting or hiding?"

If it's the latter, and some guy is delaying the game by hiding in a bush with no feasible plans to win the round, he gets kicked rather than killed anyhow.
Title: Re: So about that banner balancer........
Post by: Gorath on January 13, 2011, 08:34:21 pm
The only time a dead man talks in vent to convey information about the game is when there is 1 guy left, and we don't know where he is. In that case, the only question asked and answered in our vent is this: "Is he fighting or hiding?"

If it's the latter, and some guy is delaying the game by hiding in a bush with no feasible plans to win the round, he gets kicked rather than killed anyhow.


^
This.  We all hate ghosting, always have since we were a native clan.  And it's much easier to kick the hiding game delayer than tell someone his location and wait for them to run to it.