cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: tankmen on June 17, 2011, 08:04:26 am

Title: Athletics?
Post by: tankmen on June 17, 2011, 08:04:26 am
i got to thinking, how many people out there do not get athletics? most do, i have never in my entire 22 generations gotten it.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 17, 2011, 08:08:24 am
The best part is you haven't suffered any bit less in combat effectiveness, tankmen. I always wondered what your build was to have so much strength, hp, and ride a champion charger.

it all makes sense now. No athletics. And you are hardly outran except for the fact you wear heavy heavy armor...
lol
what do you do?
24/15 with 8 PS/5 iF/5 Riding/ 5 WM?
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Kenji on June 17, 2011, 08:17:03 am
18/18
3 Ath / 6 Riding

Since I have a tendency of getting off my horse and fight an opponent toe to toe sometimes.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 17, 2011, 08:17:10 am
I always get athletics, however since I actually wear armor with weight of 9 or more it really seems and has seemed for a while like a waste of points.  Especially as more and more players have said just like you that they never bother with athletics and they still move just as fast as I do unless I run around nekkid.

I have 6 now and I've gone as high as 9 in the past and regretted it as str builders kept up with me in footspeed during duels.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: tankmen on June 17, 2011, 08:22:21 am
so far by the poll no one but me has voted for 0 athletics.. i voted for ride or die duh, my builds 21/15 :D
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 17, 2011, 08:40:39 am
If you wear even medium armor athletics stops being worth it, thats actually how I kill people on my full str character; they expect to be able to dance circles around me in full plate just because they have 5 athletics or whatever but in reality I can keep up with them fairly well if I wear lowish armor.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 17, 2011, 08:51:02 am
If you wear even medium armor athletics stops being worth it, thats actually how I kill people on my full str character; they expect to be able to dance circles around me in full plate just because they have 5 athletics or whatever but in reality I can keep up with them fairly well if I wear lowish armor.


This is the problem with athletics that should be fixed.  It's silly that agi/athletics basically gives no benefit which is why damn near EVERYONE is a str builder nowadays.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: MouthnHoof on June 17, 2011, 11:19:24 am
I don't know what you consider str build, but most people have at least 12-15 agi and I doubt they do not max (4-5) athletics. It is also hard to differentiate between the boost of agility to running speed vs. athletics. I certainly feel the difference when I level up, but I can't tell if this is because I increased agility or athletics (I normally use light to medium armors 5-14 weight).
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: okiN on June 17, 2011, 11:32:57 am
If you wear even medium armor athletics stops being worth it, thats actually how I kill people on my full str character; they expect to be able to dance circles around me in full plate just because they have 5 athletics or whatever but in reality I can keep up with them fairly well if I wear lowish armor.
This is the problem with athletics that should be fixed.  It's silly that agi/athletics basically gives no benefit which is why damn near EVERYONE is a str builder nowadays.

What are you, high? Enjoy turtling around, I'll be way the hell over here with my 6 ath.

Of course weight slows you down, but it does nothing to diminish the effectiveness and importance of ath. Ath/AGI helps a lot to offset those penalties.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Byrdi on June 17, 2011, 11:33:44 am
WOW, athletics is one of the most important skills, none of the "good" players have less than 6.
Athletics is just as important as weapon master.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 17, 2011, 12:18:07 pm
What are you, high? Enjoy turtling around, I'll be way the hell over here with my 6 ath.

Of course weight slows you down, but it does nothing to diminish the effectiveness and importance of ath. Ath/AGI helps a lot to offset those penalties.

I'm always high. I suspect Gorath is too.
(click to show/hide)

^Joke.

WOW, athletics is one of the most important skills, none of the "good" players have less than 6.
Athletics is just as important as weapon master.

My point is that high athletics/weapon master does help a lot, but aren't absolutely required to be competitive and aren't as mandatory as you may think.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: tankmen on June 17, 2011, 12:38:08 pm
WOW, athletics is one of the most important skills, none of the "good" players have less than 6.
Athletics is just as important as weapon master.
well its a good fucking thing i don't walk then like the rest of those pla- peasants, i ride a horse , 2 riding = all your athletics



and now to post a humorous video i just watched that involves horses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Belhade on June 17, 2011, 02:46:06 pm
I currently have an AGI build with 7 Athletics. I'm not by any stretch a good player (though I'm getting better) but I have chased down archers while wearing mail before. Of course, with only 5 PS I'm usually swinging a wiffle bat in effectiveness.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: EyeBeat on June 17, 2011, 03:10:38 pm
They need to take a look at athletics.  They need to buff them.  Matey made a thread about it.  I hope the devs are looking into it.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on June 17, 2011, 03:34:24 pm
They need to take a look at athletics.  They need to buff them.  Matey made a thread about it.  I hope the devs are looking into it.

Devs said that they didn't touch at atheltics, no modification on january patch, i guess it's true, imo what have been nerfed is armor weight malus. So if you wear more than 9lbs (or 7,5?) you will be slow down.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Elerion on June 17, 2011, 03:41:35 pm
Weight based movement speed reduction does not have a break point. You start slowing down from the first pound you wear.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Teeth on June 17, 2011, 03:50:39 pm
WaltF4 said there was a break point and I don't notice any difference with my 6 weight gear and my occasional 1,5 weight peasant gear. In native this break point was at 6 but native didnt have the x3 head armor and x2 hand armor weight calculation so the break point here should be about 7.5 but depens on your hand and head armor. If I go over this I do notice a difference but I might be biased.

Athlethics is cool by the way, from 8 and above you can outrun almost everyone with light/ninja gear, so you can really pick your battles. Also you useful for kiting. Whenever I encounter a group of enemies I just run away until all but one have stopped chasing me and I attack that one.

I do feel it makes a difference in duels, I used to use a long hafted blade and I rarely had to block just by moving in and out range of my oppenent in between their attacks. (except for 2h stabs argh!)

I dont understand how you str builds dont want to rip your eyes out when you move so slow. It takes so long to get to the castle in for example siege. I want to fight not travel.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 17, 2011, 03:51:25 pm
Lol, in NA it is like a slow race to do less and less agi characters. Everytime you get more strength your KDR gets better up until a point. Some people that point may be 15 agi, some 9 agi.
Some people go 6 or 3 agi and get away with it without anyone even thinking they are pure strength. Even myself on a 36-3 build was called an agi spammer in the battle servers a few times.

Yeah, athletics is only really useful for something that needs to be mobile like a pikeman, dedicated shielder, or a dickless running archer [and chasing said dickless archer]. But you don't have to chase them. If some archer is drawing out the end of the map you wait for flag and cap as if he isn't there  :wink:

The funny argument EU has about strength builds since they are so late to get to the fight -- Not if everyone is a strength build. They all arrive a little later and you pretty much have to give your position to them since you won't be able to go toe-to-toe with them on an agi char. I occasionally see high athletics characters in NA and I caught myself thinking "ah, what a fun gimmick character those are...". What a sad thing to think.
Nobody has to chase some dumb backpeddling agi char. People don't in NA unless you overstep into their reach, then they 1 hit you XD. Strength builds can use long weapons too.
Or they ride a horse twice as fast as people and dgaf.


I Always need that 1 athletics point. Even on 36-3 I do 12PS/ 10IF/ 1 ath. Catch people who run away all the time XD. Gimmicky if you don't have proper footwork. Solid if you do.
A really solid fun build I want to try: 27/9 with: 9PS/ 9IF/2 Shield/ 3 Athletics/ 3 WM/ 3 Riding. Not slow, hits like a truck, takes hits like a truck, can drive a truck. Can use a kite shield on horse or a board/round shield when on foot. Yep, seems solid to me.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Elerion on June 17, 2011, 04:10:42 pm
WaltF4 said there was a break point and I don't notice any difference with my 6 weight gear and my occasional 1,5 weight peasant gear. In native this break point was at 6 but native didnt have the x3 head armor and x2 hand armor weight calculation so the break point here should be about 7.5 but depens on your hand and head armor. If I go over this I do notice a difference but I might be biased.
I'm fairly sure there is no break point for movement speed. There is no x3 head armor or x2 hand armor weight either.

The break point and 3x/2x rule you're referencing is with regards to wpf reduction based on armor weight. That's a different formula altogether.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Dexxtaa on June 17, 2011, 04:19:31 pm
Holy hell, even with my builds I still have athletics.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Teeth on June 17, 2011, 04:20:41 pm
I'm fairly sure there is no break point for movement speed. There is no x3 head armor or x2 hand armor weight either.

The break point and 3x/2x rule you're referencing is with regards to wpf reduction based on armor weight. That's a different formula altogether.
Yeah your right, no breaking point, got the two completely messed up.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Dravic on June 17, 2011, 04:29:02 pm
Try some real agi builds.

6/33 str/agi works just fine for me, unless you want to be a hero and 1hit every enemy spotted.

Such an agi build works really good if you like to circle enemies and attack their backs by involving few people in fight with you. You usually don't have to win, just keep them away from their team for 30 seconds and they are easy targets for coming cavalry or you can also finish them if you are good manual blocker.

Complete build:Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 6
Agility: 33
Hit points: 41
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 0
Athletics: 11
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 190
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With Yanmaodao.

Also, if you don't believe devs that skills above 10 give bonuses:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 9
Agility: 30
Hit points: 44
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 3
Shield: 0
Athletics: 10
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 190
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With Spiked Mace (you can get katana for style, but after last nerfs it is bad weapon, and it costs a bit too much)

Btw, such agi builds wear almost no armor (clothes only) and their weapons costs at most few thousand. These builds are really good choice for a "get-more-money" gen.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 17, 2011, 04:31:17 pm
Try some real agi builds.
Have, many times.
They can work a little, and are really fun. However, they die in one hit from anything and take 10 to take out a strength character.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Dravic on June 17, 2011, 04:45:17 pm
Have, many times.
They can work a little, and are really fun. However, they die in one hit from anything and take 10 to take out a strength character.

Yeah, that's why I always say: devs don't like agi.

First, with every patch we lose some weapons (by raising their req).
Second, devs often nerf weapons used by agi characters (Katana, for example).
Third, devs don't want to resign of rain, which nerfs athletics further and makes shooting with crossbow really hard (and senseless, because we pay upkeep for basically nothing) - crossbowmen in 90% cases ARE agi characters (15/27 str/agi is agi character, isn't it?)

^
 |

this is only from the top of my mind...
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 17, 2011, 06:01:06 pm
I dont understand how you str builds dont want to rip your eyes out when you move so slow. It takes so long to get to the castle in for example siege. I want to fight not travel.

Because when the 36/3 build of mine finally does reach the castle, it is damn hilarious to chunk a few opponents with just a "weak" bastard sword in one blow each, or break shields like twigs. It is all a matter of perspective, but with my STR builds I usually last a rather long time in melee due to being able to take more damage as well as requiring less hits to take out tin cans. Overall I think my ratio of fighting vs traveling is rather good.  :)

I think the thing with Athletics is that people need to stop advocating it as a thing that every class needs.
It is a situational skill, just like everything.

Most Archers will love it for it allows you to get into position faster, which is rather needed for an archer.

A lot of melee users like it because it allows them to have great foot work, yet other melee users will politely remind you that regardless of your athletics, you will be able to spin as fast as yoru mouse sensitivity will allow and athletics be damned.

Quite a few cavalry players go without it because they have a mindset of "I'm on a freaking horse" so why bother becoming a "hybrid" cav/footmen if you want to create a dedicated cavalry character? I do that with one of my lancers, and truth be told it works out rather well. It feels slow on the ground, but considering I have a bunch of points extra to spend from not going athletics, when I am on a horse I can survive longer on it due to mor focuse on being a cavalry player.


To each their own. Three of my characters don't have a point of athletics, and it does me just fine. Dedicated Cavalry and Dedicated TinCans in my opinion don't need it as much as other classes, and I build accordingly.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: zagibu on June 17, 2011, 06:11:05 pm
I either go max ATH or no ATH. I had a 36/3 STR infantry char like Tears with 0 ATH, and it was indeed slow. Any inclination in the terrain -> crawl. Also, other chars could dance around me in combat. They dictated the distance. You learn to live with it, though, and adapt.

On other chars I always invest the maximum possible points in ATH. Currently, I go for a 9/30 build with 10 ATH to see just how fast you can get while still being relevant in combat (6/33 or more extreme is not viable, IMO, due to weapon requirements).
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Canary on June 18, 2011, 02:03:59 am
WOW, athletics is one of the most important skills, none of the "good" players have less than 6.
Athletics is just as important as weapon master.

Which is to say that it's not important at all, nor is it critical to a character's survival in any given round. Unless you're hybridizing your weapon proficiencies there is no reason to take any weapon master, you can do perfectly fine with zero. I have 2 points in it, but my build would probably have been better off (and more versatile) with zero. The benefits you get from either a small number of skill points or stacking it as high as it goes are awful and have some of the worst returns considering the investment you're making.

As for athletics, you literally don't need any as well. Several good players have less than 6, surely, and several I know personally, whether they be on alts or not, have gone as low as 3 or under and have done just fine, if not more impressively than they would have with a higher agility build.


I occasionally see high athletics characters in NA and I caught myself thinking "ah, what a fun gimmick character those are...".

I have 9 athletics, and I consider my character to be hardly gimmicky. Of course, my high amount of conversions means that I also have enough strength for 6 power strike, so I'm not whiffing left and right, either; it's a very viable build. I definitely do get frustrated at the limitations that I encounter from lacking ironflesh, specifically, and the lack of my ability to wear armor while receiving the full effect of my chosen build. There is a huge contrast in the way that strength builds and agility builds work: The strength builds survive a ton of hits, and gain even more of a benefit from wearing armor, while agility builds tend to be much more frail and lose nearly every benefit of their spec from trying to circumvent that problem by wearing armor.

I just don't always feel that the investment in higher agility is worth it, as a non hybrid. So I run faster, big deal, it's not always impressive, and it's impeded by so many anomalies in map terrain and limited so much by the equipment you wear. Compare that to a high strength build, which would allow you make kills on people in however many less swings (which can not be overstated) and survive many more yourself, synergizing especially well with thicker armor.

Basically it's a comparison of KILLING FASTER AND NOT DYING AS MUCH to BEING ABLE TO RUN FROM MELEE PLAYERS AND CLOSE GAPS FASTER.

Agility, and athletics especially, are sometimes vastly overrated. That said, I wouldn't enjoy the game as much with less than my main has, it is so terribly fun to be able to run around at such speeds.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 18, 2011, 02:40:15 am
Canary: I'm referring to someone with 3/6/9/12 strength when I refer to gimmicky agility builds. Meanwhile a strength focused build with 12 or less agi is hugely if not more viable for many players than a balanced build.


Never go 0 ath with a short weapon. With minimal or 0 athletics you can still dictate the fight if you aren't gimping yourself on weapon length. A strength build can backstep, forcing the agility build to step towards him. End of fight.
or he can have a longer or equal length weapon and can't be backpeddled anyways so who cares.

I want to stress athletics & agi builds are FUN with moving around, although they are less effective when they do get to combat by a lot.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Seawied on June 18, 2011, 03:59:02 am
Canary: I'm referring to someone with 3/6/9/12 strength when I refer to gimmicky agility builds. Meanwhile a strength focused build with 12 or less agi is hugely if not more viable for many players than a balanced build.


Never go 0 ath with a short weapon. With minimal or 0 athletics you can still dictate the fight if you aren't gimping yourself on weapon length. A strength build can backstep, forcing the agility build to step towards him. End of fight.
or he can have a longer or equal length weapon and can't be backpeddled anyways so who cares.

I want to stress athletics & agi builds are FUN with moving around, although they are less effective when they do get to combat by a lot.
I'm of the same opinion.

I'd like to see agility characters get something. With the way WPF was redesigned back in January, there is a lot less incentive to use agility. While preventing the sheer spamability of all the balb-clones was a good thing, agility characters are left out in the cold.

I think two things should happen:
1) WPF requirement weapons... which some of which would be very difficult to obtain by PURE strength builds.
2) Strategius incentives. Possibly have athletics and riding allow the player to transverse the map faster, much like warband single-player.

Neither of these would be game-breaking, but they would allow for some more flexibility for people who want to go agility-heavy.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: okiN on June 18, 2011, 10:15:32 am
Basically it's a comparison of KILLING FASTER AND NOT DYING AS MUCH to BEING ABLE TO RUN FROM MELEE PLAYERS AND CLOSE GAPS FASTER.

Massive oversimplification. I use athletics all the time in combat movement both to get kills and avoid death.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Canary on June 18, 2011, 11:07:06 am
Massive oversimplification. I use athletics all the time in combat movement both to get kills and avoid death.

I know this, it is vastly satisfying to move behind someone and attack them at an angle they literally can not block. I used the word "basically" for a reason, I guess I'm saying. As for avoiding death, though, it kind of falls under the "run away from melee players" portion of what I said.

Caution: Massive rant ahead.

My gripe with athletics comes from the fact that it's not only very insubstantial, especially compared against strength, the only other attribute, which gives a very clearly defined bonus which applies regardless of your playstyle or skill level (where athletics, for example, can only truly be taken advantage of if you know what you're doing and practice using it) but also very inconsistent. There are so many things that limit the use of athletics and penalize proficiency, when strength, power strike, and ironflesh are always applied and always giving the same bonus no matter what. Does rain reduce hit points? No, it reduces runspeed (and ranged damage/shot speed, but that's another matter). Do hills mean you deal less damage? No, they make it so that you can't run fast. Indoors in a castle? WELL YOU BETTER SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AT THE SCENERY BECAUSE YOU'RE REDUCED TO SOME BASE MOVEMENT SPEED THAT CAN'T BE MODIFIED. Wearing some armor? Well, everyone gets hurt by this, but your proficiency is lowered! So much for all those extra weapon master points, you're now equal to someone else who spent their points maybe on a strength skill. Meanwhile that person puts their points in ironflesh and just gets this awesome synergy with the same armor.

Okay then. So what? A modifier to damage and one hit point versus the benefit of less than a quarter of an athletics point and nothing else. Are strength and agility really worth the same points value, currently? Do the skills tied to them really equal each other out? (For cavalry and hybrids, perhaps)

I dunno what could be done about it, or if anything should be done, but I do feel there's a relative imbalance between the two stats one can put points into.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: bilwit on June 18, 2011, 12:00:52 pm
It depends on preference/personal fighting style. I feel like being able to maneuver and dodge an attack is more useful than a block in certain situations. I also like to be fast enough to choose my fights more easily. I can see how athletics could be less useful to shielders, but I find it pretty essential as a 2-hander, especially against multiple opponents.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 18, 2011, 01:12:06 pm
Full str build is ok but even with my 21-18 polearm guy has 6 ath and full str guys cant touch me. i can move in and out of range and 7PS and a mighty great long axe i usually 1-2 hit most people anyway.
with my shielder who was 15-21 before retirement 7 shield skill can take a pounding on a heavy norman and i could run to the side or behind you after you swing and spam you in the face :P
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 18, 2011, 04:33:05 pm
Full str build is ok but even with my 21-18 polearm guy has 6 ath and full str guys cant touch me. i can move in and out of range and 7PS and a mighty great long axe i usually 1-2 hit most people anyway.
with my shielder who was 15-21 before retirement 7 shield skill can take a pounding on a heavy norman and i could run to the side or behind you after you swing and spam you in the face :P
You clearly don't play on NA. Strength builds don't have to and most don't use short weapons. They typically use long weapons and you are very much going to be in their range with a GLA. Your little step-in step-out means nothing because if they have any sense of timing they'll eat you for breakfast. You won't 1-2 hit them either, 2-6 [depending on build/armor] would be correct. Remember, they don't have to follow your girly backpeddling, and they won't. They'll insult you as you backpeddle and walk to the next enemy until you come back to fight.

And yes, shielders are good to have agility on! The mobility and shield resilience is great!
However, Have fun whiffing on mid-tier medium lordly armor & gauntlets. I have an 18-18 6 PS balanced character and the glances are retarded. And it is a balanced build!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 18, 2011, 04:57:20 pm
You clearly don't play on NA. Strength builds don't have to and most don't use short weapons. They typically use long weapons and you are very much going to be in their range with a GLA. Your little step-in step-out means nothing because if they have any sense of timing they'll eat you for breakfast. You won't 1-2 hit them either, 2-6 [depending on build/armor] would be correct. Remember, they don't have to follow your girly backpeddling, and they won't. They'll insult you as you backpeddle and walk to the next enemy until you come back to fight.

And yes, shielders are good to have agility on! The mobility and shield resilience is great!
However, Have fun whiffing on mid-tier medium lordly armor & gauntlets. I have an 18-18 6 PS balanced character and the glances are retarded. And it is a balanced build!

Irritatingly enough all this is true. To my disgust, 93 hp plus my transitional armour and wisby means when I am having a lazy day I can still refuse to block and just watch everything glance against most low/normal str users, especially if I start turning with blows. And honestly, I have never been outreached as I am not stupid enough to carry a short weapon with that character as my main weapon. Besides, play siege and a character like mine loves the chaos of those cramped quarters, so facing agil opponents is not a concern there.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 18, 2011, 06:04:44 pm
hmm im pretty sure you wont take many hits from a mighty GLA with a decent PS :P unless ofc NA has many more skilled players who can avoid it or you all have 3x loomed plate :P


"You clearly don't play on NA. Strength builds don't have to and most don't use short weapons. They typically use long weapons and you are very much going to be in their range with a GLA. Your little step-in step-out means nothing because if they have any sense of timing they'll eat you for breakfast."

last time i went to NA i didnt notice that everyone is a leet player compared to the avg eu guy, i would say it was pretty much the same
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 18, 2011, 06:08:53 pm
We are assuming equal skill. The average user can step in step out as well as th average user can avoid it, or the average elite player can step in step out as well as the average elite player can avoid it.

It kind of goes without saying that if you are playing against a lesser skilled player, you will dominate...
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 18, 2011, 06:38:26 pm
true but i dont see EU being dominated by 80% full str builds so something is different
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: cmp on June 18, 2011, 08:05:35 pm
true but i dont see EU being dominated by 80% full str builds so something is different

NAs play on macs

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 18, 2011, 08:20:55 pm
NAs play on macs

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Ahahahahahaah I do I do play on a mac!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

+1 good sir, very well done!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tristan on June 18, 2011, 08:23:37 pm
Well to be more elaborate than CMP... does no one on the NA server ever consider blocking?
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 18, 2011, 08:28:21 pm
Well to be more elaborate than CMP... does no one on the NA server ever consider blocking?

On the battle server? Assuredly so!
On the siege server? About 15% bother to do it more then a few times... Maybe 40% on a good day...
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Tomas on June 18, 2011, 08:39:19 pm
I've always found the reasoning behind hit points going up with strength a bit sketchy at best and I certainly can't fathom how a skill can increase hit points.

Surely being able to wear heavier armour without penalty should be the main bonus for high strength characters?

Whether changing this would completely ruin the balance of the game is another matter.  Just thought i'd mention it as a potential solution for those that do feel strength is overpowered compared to agility.  I haven't played enough extreme character builds to judge for myself
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Rumblood on June 19, 2011, 12:56:52 am
I've always found the reasoning behind hit points going up with strength a bit sketchy at best and I certainly can't fathom how a skill can increase hit points.

Surely being able to wear heavier armour without penalty should be the main bonus for high strength characters?

Whether changing this would completely ruin the balance of the game is another matter.  Just thought i'd mention it as a potential solution for those that do feel strength is overpowered compared to agility.  I haven't played enough extreme character builds to judge for myself

I tend to agree with this statement. I'm thinking HP for strength should be removed and +1 or +2 added to IF.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Casimir on June 19, 2011, 01:04:39 am
Well when i had fully heirloomed Milanese plate, greaves mittens and reinforced helm and a 24:12 build i could easily get out maneuvered by players wearing average armour and if using the poleaxe only rarely 1hit people.

Not that ive got 6 athletics its much easier for me to position myself and get a kill, whether this is a difference between 4 and 6 athletics or between polearm infantry and 2h i do not know, either way, this 2h is much more user friendly in my experience.

I guess maybe its because i play EU where agi builds seem to do better i don't know, although my experience on NA is that all Agi builds would die to crossbowmen before they could fight a str build guys...
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Shablagoo on June 19, 2011, 01:13:04 am
I was going to try a 15/21 1h build but I'm at 15/18 now and the glances are unbearable.  Agility builds are stupid because you can totally outplay someone, hit them multiple times, then they get one lucky hit and it's over.  And that's only exacerbated by having a 1h weapon.  Probably going to try 24/12 or something next gen. 
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Kafein on June 19, 2011, 01:23:57 am
Maybe I'm an alien, but I consider myself way more successful with balanced or agi builds. I can't stand being slow, it's a problem in so many situations... Playing with weapon reaches, helping someone, retreating, following running archers, shield and riding skill... This has the same value as killing in 1 hit a little more often and surviving a few more arrows IMO. Furthermore, more agi and athletics = same speed with more armor.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: okiN on June 19, 2011, 01:27:45 am
Agreed. Whether I'm playing shielder or 2h, I find speed and mobility to be invaluable. Maybe I need an extra hit or two for some kills, but it's much easier to get those hits -- and maybe I can't take quite as much punishment, but it's also a lot easier for me not to get hit in the first place.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 19, 2011, 01:28:55 am
i dont understand why you guys are all glancing so much with 1h. i have 15str on my 1h builds and i hardly ever bounce. aim for the head and what weapons are you using? ive used NCS and iberian mace and im using the military cleaver and i very rarely ever glance
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 19, 2011, 01:32:29 am
i dont understand why you guys are all glancing so much with 1h. i have 15str on my 1h builds and i hardly ever bounce. aim for the head and what weapons are you using? ive used NCS and iberian mace and im using the military cleaver and i very rarely ever glance

I use a 2x heirloomed military cleaver or a 1x heirloomed langes messer and I glance off everything until 18 str / 6 PS and even then I glance ALOT still.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Keshian on June 19, 2011, 01:34:19 am
Ahahahahahaah I do I do play on a mac!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

+1 good sir, very well done!

Oh.... you are one of those people....jk.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Thucydides on June 19, 2011, 01:49:15 am
Strength build is more about teamwork and the ability to end fights quickly so that the round ends quickly/prevent long drawn out duels.

Agi is more about dictating where the fight happens and trying to outskill the other person in a 1v1 duel.

I'm not saying that agi is solely that of a rambo or str is solely that of a teamplayer, but in a team battle local superiority is easier to obtain if your team can one hit everyone and wittle down the enemy by half in 5 seconds, as well as having a high survivability.

However, at Strategus level battles, agi and str need to work together in order to win. Personally, i believe that ath should be important for support toons like shielders, archers, pikeman. But for the shock troops, the base in which these support group operates, str is the best.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 19, 2011, 02:01:33 am
I've been playing around abit, and I personally find balanced builds to be king.

The 21-18 pole build I'm using now gives me enough mobility too keep up with most ppl while wearing medium armor, and enough hp/hitting power to outlast my opponents.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 19, 2011, 02:35:29 am
I use a 2x heirloomed military cleaver or a 1x heirloomed langes messer and I glance off everything until 18 str / 6 PS and even then I glance ALOT still.


odd. are you fighting plate guys or trans?  i didnt go above 5 ps 15 str last gen and i killing loads
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Casimir on June 19, 2011, 03:39:55 am
Gorath fights with a torch and only ever swings at face hugging range, with a right swing.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 19, 2011, 04:47:02 am

odd. are you fighting plate guys or trans?  i didnt go above 5 ps 15 str last gen and i killing loads

Tons of plate guys.  Those are the only ones worth noting on the field really.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gurnisson on June 19, 2011, 06:39:02 am
Fun fact: Bar for my pure strength thrower, I've never had a build that involved more strength than agility. Movement over power any day of the week.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 19, 2011, 04:04:36 pm
Tons of plate guys.  Those are the only ones worth noting on the field really.
Tons of plate guys, everyone who isn't in plate has an xbow or is a dedicated archer/shielder.
Agility based non-shielder characters would be a disgusting nightmare to play on NA. you would usually not make it to the fight because of the xbows, andif you did finally you'd be onehit by any str melee character.

I watched some garbage player, and I mean BAD player, walking up and not stop left clicking. He didn't even try to block, he killed 6 people as soon as they glanced because his swings completed and he took 7 long bow shots and 3 bec swipes before he finally went down.
That is an every map kind of thing, that just impressed me because of how many longbow shots it took from a 7 PD archer... it meant he had lordly milanese. That was it.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 19, 2011, 05:39:14 pm
Tons of plate guys, everyone who isn't in plate has an xbow or is a dedicated archer/shielder.
Agility based non-shielder characters would be a disgusting nightmare to play on NA. you would usually not make it to the fight because of the xbows, andif you did finally you'd be onehit by any str melee character.

I watched some garbage player, and I mean BAD player, walking up and not stop left clicking. He didn't even try to block, he killed 6 people as soon as they glanced because his swings completed and he took 7 long bow shots and 3 bec swipes before he finally went down.
That is an every map kind of thing, that just impressed me because of how many longbow shots it took from a 7 PD archer... it meant he had lordly milanese. That was it.

Yup.  This is the state of the NA servers and the ranged spammitude contained within them (along with the consequences of that ranged spammitude).  This is also why the amount of glances are OBSCENE, at least in my experience.  Since I'm not a pure STR stacker I can pretty much guarantee that I will have to block 3-4x the amount of my opponent just to break even, and if I fuck up once I'll get 1-shotted.

It'd be nice if the 6 athletics I had allowed me to move faster than the STR guys as it pertains to footwork in combat and not just jogging across the field.  Ah well.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: okiN on June 19, 2011, 05:53:42 pm
Yup.  This is the state of the NA servers and the ranged spammitude contained within them (along with the consequences of that ranged spammitude).  This is also why the amount of glances are OBSCENE, at least in my experience.  Since I'm not a pure STR stacker I can pretty much guarantee that I will have to block 3-4x the amount of my opponent just to break even, and if I fuck up once I'll get 1-shotted.

How strange. I'm an 18/18 shielder and I usually go blow for blow on the blocks as soon as I close the gap, and generally take down plate users in just a few hits. I mostly only get glances with bad angles, though there is the occasional random bounce, especially against loomed armour.

I also have zero IF and hardly ever get oneshotted; even full STR players usually need two hits, and I only wear heavy mail.

It'd be nice if the 6 athletics I had allowed me to move faster than the STR guys as it pertains to footwork in combat and not just jogging across the field.  Ah well.

But it does. Oh, how it does.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Gorath on June 19, 2011, 06:24:57 pm
How strange. I'm an 18/18 shielder and I usually go blow for blow on the blocks as soon as I close the gap, and generally take down plate users in just a few hits. I mostly only get glances with bad angles, though there is the occasional random bounce, especially against loomed armour.

I also have zero IF and hardly ever get oneshotted; even full STR players usually need two hits, and I only wear heavy mail.

But it does. Oh, how it does.

Weird how so there's such a swap in accounts from the field.  Not that I don't believe your anecdotes because you have just as little reason to fib as I do, yet I wear heavy mail armor (Kuyak), have a balanced build as well (18/18, IF-PS-Ath-WM-Shield all at 6) and I get 1-shotted all the time and require many hits to take down the str builders.  That's usually with a 1x loomed langes messer or a MS warcleaver (2h).  In voip most of us talk about how we should have just gone full str like everyone else, while the guys that did go full str comment about how much easier life has become.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Casimir on June 19, 2011, 07:22:14 pm
now i'm lvl 30 with my guy i'll come to NA and see how bad it is, last time i was there i was cav so didn't really notice.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2011, 01:42:14 am
Cav doesn't care too much about the str builds. A couch will kill most, but you need 2 couches for any pure strength character. 2 or 3 lances is not bad for a cav against a strength build typically. Cav does really well on NA despite the sheer amount of xbows.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Casimir on June 20, 2011, 03:07:40 am
Went on Ootl for a bit today.

My agi build didnt do too badly considering my ping, racked up a few kills and was 2nd highest on my team on one map. Overall i wouldn't say that there is any noticeable difference between na and eu with regards to melee fighting.

I'll try on a more populated server but i fear my ping will distort my ability to play too badly, we'll see.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Phallas on June 20, 2011, 05:04:24 am
bloody Americans and their pounds, the warband system is in metric,  range = cm and weight = kilograms
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 20, 2011, 11:44:49 am
pfft metric. be english use both at once!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: SHinOCk on June 21, 2011, 05:08:17 am
Casimir go on NA strategus Duel server sometimes i'll fight you if you're there!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 21, 2011, 05:19:24 am
I keep going to the Eu3 duel server with 200 ping trying to duel the better players when I can find them. I apparently have yet to run into them because I keep fighting a bunch of people who can't footwork a damn and keep dying while trying to circle spam me -- but do it wrong and don't block? I must be missing the hours better players warm up on the eu duel server. Going 7-1 against assumedly new players trying to get better isn't any fun.
You guys need a memo saying "holding the S key is a bad idea in duels" or something on the eu duel server, seriously. Holding the S key or holding A or D and trying to circle exclusively is not conducive to learning how to properly block or footwork.

I'm not even good by NA duelist standards.
I'll keep stopping by on random instant level 30s though. blocks not working due to ping ruins the fun though. Dying exclusively due to ping makes me sad.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: SHinOCk on June 21, 2011, 05:25:08 am
You have all the duelers you need on NA duel Marathon!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 21, 2011, 05:27:38 am
You have all the duelers you need on NA duel Marathon!
Nooo, this is to prove a point to EU about athletics and agility! I can duel cyranule any day and win 1 out of 10 fights due to me making subtle, very subtle mistakes such as swinging left when I meant right. What a learning experience every fight is.

Stepping  and swinging in the correct direction > stepping and swinging faster in ANY direction.
If you step and swing the wrong way you lose. No matter how quickly you move.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: SHinOCk on June 21, 2011, 05:30:04 am
indeed athletics makes things easier but i can duel just as well with 2 than 6, just have to adapt to your current style and move accordingly
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 21, 2011, 05:34:06 am
indeed athletics makes things easier but i can duel just as well with 2 than 6, just have to adapt to your current style and move accordingly
that is the point of this thread.
Athletics only helps backpeddlers against people who let themselves' get backpeddled. There seems to be a poor footwork epidemic in Eu.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Bobthehero on June 21, 2011, 06:44:29 am
Well I do fine with 3 ath but I suspect running faster would help with the speed bonus linked to stabbing in the face.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 21, 2011, 06:52:42 am
Well I do fine with 3 ath but I suspect running faster would help with the speed bonus linked to stabbing in the face.
less than your power strike helps. You have 10 or 11 PS?
besides speed bonus is mostly relative direction of moving characters and less the actual speed of them. ie; both you and the opponent walking towards each other is most important for the speed bonus damage.
Use their athletics against them for the speed bonus!
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Bobthehero on June 21, 2011, 07:58:34 am
10 powerstrike, and agaisnt the high athlethics build I dont even need their own speed bonus to one shot them :P
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Osiris on June 21, 2011, 12:32:18 pm
meh i went to the NA duel server and pwned most people and im terrible on eu :D guess there is a non block epidemic on NA ^^ or probably the time i go on most NA players arnt around and vice versa :P
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Casimir on June 21, 2011, 02:00:36 pm
Yeah come on eu3 when phyrex or bjord are on, i can promice it wont be your ping getting you killed. :/
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Riddaren on June 21, 2011, 08:52:02 pm
I'm a horseman and usually don't get more than 5 athletics if not 0. But this generation I'm going for 15/21 (5 ps, 4sh, 6 ri, 7 at, 7 wm) to see if I will be doing better on foot.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Shpongled on June 22, 2011, 01:33:09 am
Having played 33/3, 30/6, 27/9, 21/18, 18/21, 18/18, 21/15, 15/24, 12/27  and so on, both mounted and on foot, melee, ranged and throwing, the overwhelming difference between agi and str build is this:

The player with the faster build dictates the terms of the engagement.


As such, str builds shine when the circumstances allow the player to circumvent this, for example mastery flags, siege defence and camping/ambushing.
Title: Re: Athletics?
Post by: Anti on June 24, 2011, 03:44:43 am
I keep going to the Eu3 duel server with 200 ping trying to duel the better players when I can find them. I apparently have yet to run into them because I keep fighting a bunch of people who can't footwork a damn and keep dying while trying to circle spam me -- but do it wrong and don't block? I must be missing the hours better players warm up on the eu duel server. Going 7-1 against assumedly new players trying to get better isn't any fun.
You guys need a memo saying "holding the S key is a bad idea in duels" or something on the eu duel server, seriously. Holding the S key or holding A or D and trying to circle exclusively is not conducive to learning how to properly block or footwork.

I'm not even good by NA duelist standards.
I'll keep stopping by on random instant level 30s though. blocks not working due to ping ruins the fun though. Dying exclusively due to ping makes me sad.

Its the same way in Native actually, Europeans duel far more reserved than us Americans. They like to try and dance in and out of our range, whilst we just rush and hammer our opponents till they die.

...'least thats my experience.