After this poll (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/level-revert-poll/) was conducted, people got excited to be able to do battle like it was the good old days again. The assumption that came along with that is that we'd all be able to use the same builds we had pre-patch of destiny, if not a more advanced one since some people may have accumulated enough xp to level up more since then. However, we instead are given a completely new leveling system with nothing but gimped versions of the characters we had grown accustomed to. Over 80% of the active community voted in favor of a revert (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revert), while no one voted for an entirely new xp system.The language I used was poor, I'll give you that. When I said "essentially" changing back to pre-PoD, I meant that retiring would once again be done at level 31 or so. The only thing that has been changed from pre-patch of destiny is the post-retirement levels. Given the assumptions we made didn't match up, in the future I'll make sure to be crystal clear in my intentions.
If you're trying to do some partial-wipe bs, at least ask around a little bit on the forums here to get some feedback before just going ahead and pulling the trigger. If the apparent goal here is to revitalize the mod, then you should first and foremost focus on getting the vets to return, something that a wipe is likely not going to help with as much. A wipe favors newcomers, something it is highly doubtful we will ever see again unless we can draw back in the vets to maintain a decent population in the meantime.For the near future I have no plans for "partial-wipe bs." I don't see how what I've done so far can be considered close to that, maybe there's been more miscommunication. Of course, my goal is to get the mod back on its feet. One of the reasons I decided I decided to revert levels was that is exciting to a degree and could potentially draw back in players who left due to the introduction of PoD leveling system. Hypothetical, sure, but worth a shot. Again, the wipe is still under discussion. In the case that some form of a wipe does happen (not saying that it will or will not), it would be sometime early 2018.
Regardless of whether or not anything should even be wiped, if you're gonna do a partial wipe at least do the smarter (although still rather foolish) thing and take away all our looms while not touching our levels. Having just one more level makes all the difference in available playstyles, and by extension having 2 or 3 more is even more impactful.
Players who were previously level 36 (pre-patch of destiny) are now level 33 at best, and leveling beyond that point is quite literally impossible. On the flip side, looms have almost no affect on the way you play whatsoever, they literally only make you artificially better by giving you an advantage in survivability, damage-dealing, etc. If someone is level 35 and running around in the same armor loomed and unloomed, nothing changes other than the fact they might be able to tank an extra hit when wearing it loomed. However if you've got someone running around at level 32 compared to 35, they'll be noticeably slower, or weaker, or outright unable to use the same items as the higher leveled version of themselves. The point I'm trying to make here, is ya done goofed.
You took away our ability to customize our characters and play the way we want, ruined any hybridization opportunities that may have existed beforehand, and for what reason, exactly? In the hopes that you could attract some noobs who will still hop on and see people using looms and go crying back to native? If you want to help noobs, remove looms. If you want to keep vets from coming back, take away our levels.
The language I used was poor, I'll give you that. When I said "essentially" changing back to pre-PoD, I meant that retiring would once again be done at level 31 or so. The only thing that has been changed from pre-patch of destiny is the post-retirement levels. Given the assumptions we made didn't match up, in the future I'll make sure to be crystal clear in my intentions.
For the near future I have no plans for "partial-wipe bs." I don't see how what I've done so far can be considered close to that, maybe there's been more miscommunication.
One of the reasons I decided I decided to revert levels was that is exciting to a degree and could potentially draw back in players who left due to the introduction of PoD leveling system. Hypothetical, sure, but worth a shot. Again, the wipe is still under discussion.
Yes, it is now very difficult to level past 33, and yes the new post-31 leveling system is now different from pre-PoD. I changed it to this because, under the old pre-PoD system, theoretically a player could have their levels reverted back to 35, which was up until last weekend the retiring point for builds. My goal in this level revert was to improve balance, which has been strained by the high-level builds of PoD. Having players running around at level 35, a post-retirement level in PoD, completely defeats that purpose.
Item difficulties were lowered to accommodate lower levels, and can be lowered further. So, you can still customize your character. You can still play the way you want. You can still use hybrids.
But the best thing to do for the mod right now isn't to go onto the forums and share opinions about the state of the game, it's to play the game, get it populated, and actually try out the new things that have been implemented. Then, if you want to share your opinion, at least it'll be informed, and as a result I'll be better able to adapt the state of the game if a problem area is brought up.
The point of this patch is to weaken high-level builds that can abuse the combat system, and to lessen the effects of "OP" items.
So basically what I'm getting from this is people were bitching for months about level 35 being game breaking and ruining everything, and now you're upset because you aren't level 35 anymore?
If we go down that path might as well just get rid of builds since some are objectively better than others :rolleyes:Isn't that what this revert is doing? Or at least severely gimping them.
If we go down that path might as well just get rid of builds since some are objectively better than others :rolleyes:
I'd play if it was reverted to native with items still here.
I'd play if it was reverted to native with items still here.
I'm confused. Before levels were too high and it was game breaking. It is reset back and now there is no such thing as hybrids somehow and builds arent a thing??? Just because you cant get 150 WPF in two weapon catagories doesnt mean it isn't viable. I've played the last 6 gens with under 30 WPF and I've been doing fine
I'm confused. Before levels were too high and it was game breaking. It is reset back and now there is no such thing as hybrids somehow and builds arent a thing??? Just because you cant get 150 WPF in two weapon catagories doesnt mean it isn't viable. I've played the last 6 gens with under 30 WPF and I've been doing fineI have never had 150 wpf in 2 weapon categories even on Asheram who was lvl 37, before they nerfed hx I had 133 wpf in polearm and like 80-90 in xbow.
I have never had 150 wpf in 2 weapon categories even on Asheram who was lvl 37, before they nerfed hx I had 133 wpf in polearm and like 80-90 in xbow.
And hybrid builds are pretty much all I have ever played, I remember what hybrids were like pre-pod, was 15/18 hx and have no interest going back to that. Have fun with your all star melee.
have fun
What a weak response. I don't know how people didn't realize that lowering the levels would mean fewer skill points. Personally I never advocated for a level reduction because I didn't really care but literally EVERYONE was screaming for it and now you're all complaining because now you are a lower level.I already gave you my response before you replied to me about morphing what I like into what you like.
I already gave you my response before you replied to me about morphing what I like into what you like.
Your response was "hybrids arent a valid thing because of the soft level cap" I made a post with proof showing that you very easily can have a hybrid build. Your response was to say I had an "all star melee build and to have fun with it".You didnt prove anything to me because that is all I ever played before patch of destiny sorry it doesnt fit into what you think I should find enjoyable.
You didnt prove anything to me because that is all I ever played before patch of destiny sorry it doesnt fit into what you think I should find enjoyable.
Anyhow beyond all that the only build I really enjoyed was Gunanruns 12/33 lvl 34 4 throwing 11 athletics and 8 wpf well i made it to 16 gens and went to 35 and added 3 ps with stones and sai or hafted blade and that will never again be possible so the point is moot. And I never ran anyone across the map forever.
Maybe I am missing your idea of a hybrid you probably think putting points into melee as an archer is a "hybrid"
A hybrid is a class that can play multiple rolls. The build I posted is a "hybrid" because I can hang back and do ranged with my crossbow, or I can join the front lines as a shieldman and do team fighting. Two very different forms of gameplay. I think your idea of a "hybrid" is being able to able to use any weapon on one character which isn't really feasible and hasn't ever been.you do realize you need no points to use that crossbow right?
you do realize you need no points to use that crossbow right?
a completely new leveling systemYou keep saying "completely new xp system" as if we just changed to the lvl system of Diablo2 or CoD. The pod leveling system allowed too powerful builds and the old one was too grindy, the new one seems to give a good balance between leveling up and high level builds, but in the end we can only really say if it works or not after testing it for a while. I'm currently working my way up from lvl1 and with lvl22 I can already be a threat for high level builds what I've experienced so far
Having just one more level makes all the difference in available playstyles, and by extension having 2 or 3 more is even more impactfulI don't understand what you're trying to say there. Do you mean it's good that a trillion xp character should have a huge advantage compared to a normal highlevel char? Trillion xp characters should have a slight advantage over high level chars, they shouldn't be able to stomp them into the ground. Everybody who starts new would have to spend months into this game to even be a threat to old players, and that only statswise
This patch makes one of those decisions significantly better than the other, while giving everyone who chose the other path absolutely nothing in return for their lost investment.With a partial wipe people would be able to regain their looms with a couple of retirements, that's no big deal.
They shouldn't have asked if we wanted something entirely different and then pass the new system off as "something we all voted for."You're acting as if people had betrayed you, there was plenty of discussion about all of this both on the forums and discord.
The point of this patch is to weaken high-level builds that can abuse the combat system, and to lessen the effects of "OP" items.
Same mindset as chadz/cmp, you are true successor indeed. Mindset being: take away the fun from players.The "I want my puppystomper-mod"-fun? The kind of fun which is only fun for the people who are using that exact build? If you mean that its sad that there arent high agi headshot stone thrower or shield/knife/high athl lolbuilds, then good riddance.
So many words being said, best cRPG was unrestrained cRPG which was closest to vanilla mechanics.jesus Christ, I never ever want to go back to that madness. Can't you remember how much whining there was in the forums about the mechanics? Nothing was working well in 2011, all that archer kiting, roofmonkeys (and no flags to counter them), ladderhighways on siege, the ez win cav builds with the old lance stabbing angles, native is still a crazy rangefest up to this very day. Only thing I miss from 2011 is ladderpulting :lol:
Jona, some constructive feedback would help way more than all this subjective arguing and finger-pointing, it's already impressive that we even got people who still invest a lot of time in trying to fix this ancient mod. What do you think would be best for the mod to do?
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The first step is to manage to convince the 'infallible' devs that they've actually made a mistake, or at least taken a suboptimal approach to something they've perceived as a problem. This requires constant berating to pound it through their thick skulls.Oh my fucking god. That is all I can say. If you took ONE minute out of your day of bitching on the forums to join the discord, or even just shoot me a message on steam, you'd have found that I'm normally very receptive to input. But no. You had to bitch and bitch, and guess what? That's doing more to kill the mod than anything else, because that sort of shit ruins the incentive for us to actually keep working on the mod.
Couple of points to be made here.
The new level system has a few flaws.
1) Skip the fun (level 31) *zero grind* has at most 2 attribute and skill points less than a person that spent years and years grinding XP. It make's us oldies a bit sore when we look at this way (4 years of grinding XP) vs (1 click of a button) benefits? - 2 attribute points and skill points over the (click of the button). So, all in all, we could have all been retiring for 4 years accumulating more and more looms and that would have been more logical *if this XP system remains unchanged*
2) the soft cap is a bit too extreme if you create a line-graph that compares the 3 sets of xp systems you'll see that the new one escalates very rapidly in an unrealistic manner that makes it leveling past level 31 basically out of the question. There are no real benefits from this course of action anymore and everyone is better off retiring/ skipping the fun.
3) I too feel the soreness of Ashram's/Jona's argument as I am in the same boat. *not that we can't adapt or alter our builds of choice*
Years and years ago probably 2013 I made the choice that retirement was no longer relevant to my character and the only way to continue with a sense of progression was to go beyond level 31 (retirement level) So I did just that. At the time the Patch of destiny came out I was level 35 and shot up to level 37 nearing level 38 (nearing as in like half way there lol) Now I was never a fan of having all of those extra skill points and always viewed it as a mod breaking thing having SO many extra points to play around with. So I definitely see what you are trying to do with this new XP system and I am not opposed to reducing the total amount of points a build can utilize.
That is a good goal to have; though with that said the majority of us are not new. The majority of us have made specific decisions regarding our characters many years ago and this system is effectively punishing those choices we made many many years ago I could understand why that would make the oldest of us a bit frustrated.(click to show/hide)
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oh and by the way you guys moved Jonas thread to the bitching chamber of tears section and now you are bitching about him bitching in the bitching sub forum? Isn't that what this part of forums is for?
I moved it. Jona's crying and complaining is toxic, useless and a waste of time to read. If you have no time to test current or future changes, don't reply or create a thread to complain on main forums. We don't want your feedback if you aren't playing. I'm just going to delete your thread next time. Now go to work before I call your manager.My comment wasnt about you moving it it was about Rd bitching about Jona bitching in the thread after it was in the bitching section. Apparently dont shed tears in the chamber of tears section either. I dont really care for this change either but for different reasons than Jona as I never tried to go past lvl 33 in pre pod, if I hadn't retired 3x at lvl 33 and started wasting time on alts I might have gotten there then.
Oh snap I'm getting threats now? Neato. And as I said before, one needn't play crpg to know what level 33 feels like if they have played this game at all in the past. Unless you've mysteriously changed all the mechanics behind the scenes without telling anyone, there's nothing new to see here.Just for your information, if you are able to stop being unpleasant and PM me with the intent of civilly discussing the issue, I'll gladly discuss it as well. Otherwise, I won't feel compelled in the slightest to treat you with respect.(click to show/hide)
What time is needed to test something you played for years before pod? With obviously even more level restraints? If all you wanted to do was " create an environment where there are not players that have high level advantages you could have left it the way it was and hobbled the going high levels past retirement. I would rather play a level 35 stf character with no looms, or even a level 34 before retirement character with no looms than what you just did.When I was talking about the time needed to test, that was about how the build felt in regards to other players. Obviously yes one can know what a build feels like after playing for a large amount of time, but given that everyone's levels changed, you can't know how the build compares to others until you try it out.
Basically, all this shit is a work in progress. The post-31 xp for levels can change, item difficulties can change, etc.
You took away the two main things that made me want to play this mod:
1. Asheram was my highest level and you doubled the xp he needed to get to his next level
2. Gunanrun is what I found fun and you basically eliminated his build
You took away the two main things that made me want to play this mod:
1. Asheram was my highest level and you doubled the xp he needed to get to his next level
2. Gunanrun is what I found fun and you basically eliminated his build
Basically, all this shit is a work in progress. The post-31 xp for levels can change, item difficulties can change, etc.
toxic
PM me
When the fuck was Professor a developer in 2015
The level revert thing had been announced and discussed on forums, if you had shit against it maybe you should've mentioned something then. I don't even play anymore and understood that to mean "high levels builds will no longer be viable" as an automatic part of it, which some other people apparently didn't understand.
It's nice to have the crpg spirit back in the forum at least
Therein lies one of my complaints that I've outlined earlier... we voted answering the question of "Should levels be reverted to pre "Patch of Destiny?" I voted yes, as I was level 35 pre-PoD, and quite possibly had enough xp to even be level 36 by now, going off the old system. Now, why is it that when I voted yes on that poll I should expect to be level 33 instead? Hence the title of this thread and much of the bellyaching, since I was asking for a real revert, as what was implemented is in no ways a revert, with revert being defined as "a (return to (a previous state, practice, topic, [leveling system], etc.)."
The language I used was poor, I'll give you that. When I said "essentially" changing back to pre-PoD, I meant that retiring would once again be done at level 31 or so. The only thing that has been changed from pre-patch of destiny is the post-retirement levels.
... at least try and understand all these big words you're reading before posting.Follow your own advice pal. I'm also enjoying the fact that you are selectively ignoring the fact that I've said that all of this can change. Just so you can complain more.
HEAVEN FORBID WE DISCUSS CRPG BALANCING/CHANGES ON THE CRPG FORUMS!I asked you to PM me with the intent of a 1 on 1 civil discussion. I don't know if you're scared of talking to me all by yourself, or unsure whether you can be civil, but don't you worry, I don't bite.
[quoted stuff]
Follow your own advice pal. I'm also enjoying the fact that you are selectively ignoring the fact that I've said that all of this can change. Just so you can complain more.
I asked you to PM me with the intent of a 1 on 1 civil discussion. I don't know if you're scared of talking to me all by yourself, or unsure whether you can be civil, but don't you worry, I don't bite.
Quite literally, if you do decide to PM me I'll drop all this unpleasant stuff I'm saying. I know I'm capable of doing that.
HEAVEN FORBID WE DISCUSS CRPG BALANCING/CHANGES ON THE CRPG FORUMS!
"In regards to your first paragraph, [here is where you own up to your mistake instead of saying that me/the community made false assumptions about the poll's meaning*].
Concerning the second point, where you state that levels are more important than looms for the enjoyment of the mod for some people, I [agree/disagree and here's why]. Therefore, as for your suggestion that we wipe looms instead of levels as a soft reset, I must say that [we'll get right on that/we'd rather do X because Y].
Near the end, you ask what the purpose was of this level wipe, the intended purpose behind it was [explanation] which I'm sorry to see apparently removed much of the fun of crpg for you and perhaps others. How would you recommend we proceed from here?"
*seeing how one needn't make a single assumption about the meaning of 'Should levels be reverted to pre "Patch of Destiny"' as you could pull up a dictionary and find out exactly what that statement means. It isn't all that subjective.
what was Gunanrun's build exactly?He was 12/33 at lvl 34 with 4 throwing, 11 athletics and 8 wpm with all weapon points in throwing( I think it was like 130 or 140 wpf) I had got to generation 16 a little while ago so I didnt retire last time and stayed at lvl 35 and put 3 points into power strike.
Aaaaand no worthwhile response, yet again. Not surprising.How is offering to have an actual polite discussion not worthwhile?
You ask why I reply in this manner? I ask why this thread was moved here in the first place. It was quite tame at the time it was moved. All it shows is that the current devs have the lowest tolerance of criticism out of all their predecessors, which is truly remarkable. There's apparently no way you'd have an intelligent discussion if someone had a viewpoint that differed from your own. If you want a real discussion move this on back to general discussion or game balance discussion, ain't getting shit while its stuck in the land of the shitposts. I'd make a new thread, but big bad dupre told me I'd get in trouble if I do. QQ
Jona, your attitude really doesn't get you any favours with us.
a long desired change - something to lower the levels and go back to somewhere similar to pre-PoD levels.
we've MANY MANY TIMES linked to the discord on this forum, saying that this is where our discussions, ideas and announcements are happening, that you were somehow "barred" from sharing your 2 cents about the topic? If you saw that we were using a chat server like discord to coordinate our development, why didn't you partake and instead stayed here? I'm genuinely curious.
How is offering to have an actual polite discussion not worthwhile?
Hey thryn this is Yuhmaz from Donkey team,Thank you for the support Yuhmaz, I'll be happy to actually see a competent dev working on cRPG instead of the current guy.
I have heard your plea and started working on coding a new levelling system.Don't worry it will be better than the previous.And don't mind about molly,we took her to our team through her mother's insistence.
Regards,Melee Team
sure is one ugly son of a gunIs he Ugly Bob from South Park?