cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: PieParadox on May 23, 2011, 06:46:59 pm
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I'm not a pro at this game, but almost everyone says the steel pick is too strong, even from day 1 I started playing. I don't really see any cons to using it, other than its short range, but that really isn't a problem for good players who can duel closely... Ideas?
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What makes it too strong is that you can use it witha shield (usually huscarl or heavy round shield), do almost the same damage as a bec de corbin or morningstar so you can 2-3 shot people even as an agility build usign an autoblock (shield). If you use it without a shield you area badass because of its short length, but the people you see running around in black armor with a steel pick and a heavy round shield are tools.
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What makes it too strong is that you can use it witha shield (usually huscarl or heavy round shield), do almost the same damage as a bec de corbin or morningstar so you can 2-3 shot people even as an agility build usign an autoblock (shield). If you use it without a shield you area badass because of its short length, but the people you see running around in black armor with a steel pick and a heavy round shield are tools.
^^this.
Especially when it's heirloomed it does 36 pierce! :shock:
It being short is also a kind of benefit as it's harder to see what direction the user is swinging from. I've never been a fan of this weapon.
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It can be OP. I made a thread pre-patch saying the steel pick was, to some degree, overpowered. The issue is mainly that it has such incredible speed and high pierce damage, whereas most comparable weapons have either one or the other. The actual problem, though, is that the exceptionally short length of the pick (its main weakness) is largely offset by a shield. Though it's difficult to fight multiple people at once, when using the steel pick, it has few-to-no real weaknesses in 1-on-1 combat when paired with a shield. When dueling a pick+shielder the only real way to get at them is to lure them into attacking foolishly or dancing around them (which is hard in a duel). This is different from fighting a sword+shielder because 1. the sword does not normally deal pierce damage and so is far less dangerous on the counter-attack 2. the sword bounces more often when it has a bad angle 3. swords rarely swing at 100+ speed for significant damage.
The pick is an odd weapon, for sure, and difficult to balance because it's so extreme in so many ways. I'd like to see it lose one or two speed points. It's worth pointing out that the warhammer, as a comparable weapon in terms of damage and length, lost far more speed in the recent patch than the steel pick. Pre-patch they were close to evenly matched and it may help to keep their speeds near-equal.
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Use kick or crushthrough weapons. Or feints. It is a strong weapon, but 1h is also allowed to have a strong weapon. I don't think it is OP, as I have tried using it myself and found it very hard to use due to the short reach. Basically, everything shorter than 70 cm is unusable for me.
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Just because you don't like using it personally doesn't means its not overpowered... It still requires skill to use even if it is too strong.
Edit: Kick and crushthrough weapons are hardly a counter to it, also.
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voted no simply because
1st its the only 1h weapon i fear and
2nd the user gotta be all up in your face to even hit me only High str toons have a problem here if they have below 5 ath
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Just because you can't use it personally doesn't means its not overpowered... It still requires skill to use even if it is too strong.
Edit: Kick and crushthrough weapons are hardly a counter to it, also.
Uh? Your opinion has exactly the same value as mine. I don't think it is overpowered. It is strong, yes, but it only stands out because most other 1h weapons are pretty weak. If you don't think kicks and crushthrough weapons are counters against shielders, then you should practice more. And if you have problems against 1h pick users WITHOUT shields, then you should learn to feint.
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yes, lets nerf a decent anti-tank 1h weapon. Last time I saw a pick user as #1 in kills was.......NEVER.
Quit crying cuz you got facehugged to death. Learn some teamwork
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Uh? Your opinion has exactly the same value as mine. I don't think it is overpowered. It is strong, yes, but it only stands out because most other 1h weapons are pretty weak. If you don't think kicks and crushthrough weapons are counters against shielders, then you should practice more. And if you have problems against 1h pick users WITHOUT shields, then you should learn to feint.
I'm not sure where you're deriving about the 1h pick non shield users being hard to fight from my post... Also the advice is hardly new. Feinting isn't even that effective against them cause they can hit you quickly enough if you try to feint and if they're a decent player. And chances are they are not a new player if they are one handing the pick voluntarily without a shield.
Also, what I meant was that kicks and crushthroughs are not very effective or viable strategies. Both are highly situational.
For example, the kick is slow and chances are they can dodge since they will be circling and hugging you. And only a few weapons have crushthrough and those are slow, being out spammed by the pick.
Edit: Also, Digglez, how about you actually try to have a constructive argument instead of saying "qq moar get better n00b."
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The steel pick was my main weapon once, and I still use it when I'm up against a team of tin cans or strength builds. I feel it's odd that no one has mentioned the simple solution to fighting one: hold down your 'S' key and left click repeatedly.
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Edit: Also, Digglez, how about you actually try to have a constructive argument instead of saying "qq moar get better n00b."
Yes and your ragepost against 1h is very constructive! Instead of accepting the fact theres a good weapon out there you cant counter with your specific feel good build, you feel the need to have it nerfed. Do you see me crying every time I die with my 1h&shield because I got outspammed by a 2h'er or polestunned or headshoted over my shield?...Nope
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I'm hardly raging but answering his points with my own.
And you still haven't given any argument as to why it may or may not be overpowered... You just restated what you said before.
Edit: Every post that suggests the steel pick to be too strong has been a rather detailed argument... I have yet to see any long argument supporting the pick other than Kalam's informative post.
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The steel pick was my main weapon once, and I still use it when I'm up against a team of tin cans or strength builds. I feel it's odd that no one has mentioned the simple solution to fighting one: hold down your 'S' key and left click repeatedly.
You don't count, lol, you are one of the badasses using the pick without a shield. But to the earlier post: yes, steel pick huscarl users are one fo the few instances nowadays where you can see pretty average to below average skill people topping the charts repeatedly because you have a 100 speed weapon with 36 pierce (heirloomed) and an autoblock huscarl/heavy round shield. 2-3 shot almost anyone (actually see a lot of 1 shot kills because as 1hander you are more likely to get headshots ebcause of the animation). And you can do that with a 15-24 agility build because of the high pierce damage so 8 athletics you won't beat them by backpedaling and swinging as suggested earlier.
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any weapon thats like 35+p and 100 speed is op.... the fact that its 1 slot and almost 100% combo with a sheild makes it too op, but then the people who "fix" the items are the ones who killed throwing and buffed xbows....
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you sure it hasnt been nerfed? i took a half a dozen hits from one since patch n even seen it glance
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It's the shortest weapon in the game outside of peasant weapons. How much worse does it really need to be? Less damage? Might as well use the military pick. Less speed? Might as well use the warhammer.
And of course if you heirloom it it's overpowered. Every melee weapon heirloomed is overpowered unless it's already bad in the first place. That's the whole point of heirlooming.
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Less speed? Might as well use the warhammer.
The pick does slightly more damage and it's cheaper. If the pick's speed were 98 it would still be faster than a mighty warhammer too.
And of course if you heirloom it it's overpowered. Every melee weapon heirloomed is overpowered unless it's already bad in the first place. That's the whole point of heirlooming.
No. Heirlooms increase weapon power slightly and if they become "overpowered" then they're nerfed accordingly. That's part of what the last big patch was all about: nerfing a class of heirloomed weapons which had become so powerful that vanilla weapons could hardly compete. The great disparity of item quality placed an undue pressure on new players and strangled motivation to switch-up gear if it wasn't already heirloomed. Now, heirlooms are more rare and, consequently, are more useful for their rarity than for their superior quality. When I face off with an opponent using my masterwork Italian Sword my opponents assume I've a slower and less powerful weapon than I really do. It's not about actually dealing more damage but deceiving opponents into mistaking the scenario. That's why post-patch heirlooms are no longer so potent as they are personal.
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christ, now it's the pick? I swear some of you guys won't be happy until you can cleave shielders with impunity and shatter their shields with one hit from any weapon. yes the pick is a strong one hander with good dmg vs armor and is fairly fast, and you know why? 64 fucking length. it's the shortest non- peasant weapon in the game and practically needs to be triple loomed so you can pump athletics and actually get into range. and since you have to go heavy agi with light armor you better not fuck up once bc if you do that 9ps/70 hp tincan that already took 3 pick hits just needs to graze you once with any two hander to one shot your 12-15 str no IF build.
if the pick is so strong why do I rarely see anyone else using it? yet every "good" player has either a gla, claymore, miodado, or bec nowadays - where are all these op pick users topping charts? I don't see them. there's a reason every "good" player sports a two hander or pole and it sure isn't bc it's harder, and now you wanna nerf one of the few good one handers.
and lol at the "mediocre players topping charts with the pick" comment when it's a thousand times easier to get 10 ps, a poleaxe and windmill around for victory. give a bad player a pick and a bec and see which he does better with, hint: it won't be the pick
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So far as I've seen, most good players refuse to use it because they hardly get any respect for it. But yes I do think that the bec de corbin is now one of the best weapons... My heirloomed poleaxe is a slight disappointment now...
I think the problem with it is mainly its damage of 33 pierce. My poleaxe doesn't even do that much damage with a thrust.
I think that increasing its length and decreasing its damage might be a good compromise.
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if the pick is so strong why do I rarely see anyone else using it?
I had to pick this out right here. I see it every single game. Its one of the few weapons I can honestly say that about.
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are you EU or something? because every 9/10 players worth a damn on NA have a 2hander or pole, and the few shielders there are even fewer use the pick
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Yeah, I probably see 10 becs for every 1 pick.
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That's all irrelevant. The steel pick is a short weapon which, unless you know how to use it, is difficult and ineffective. A good example of this is Paroxysm, who just described the build in exactly the way one who's inexperienced with it would presume it needs to be played. I played with a warhammer (similar damage and length) for a long while in medium-heavy armour + huscarl and was quite effective. I didn't have high agi but generally well-balanced builds (18/18, 15/21, etc.). It's easier to kill with a short weapon than people seem to suppose - it just requires a change in tactics.
Even when one is quite good with the class one may not actually find it fun. I moved away from short 1h weapon with the new patch and haven't gone back. It's not because I'm more effective now, or because of aesthetic value, but because the pick has just one dominating tactic that must be used if it's to be effective. Other load-outs, such as my current sword+board combo, are often more interesting to play.
The point of this thread is that the pick's primary weakness, its length, is not significant enough to balance out its exceptional speed and damage. People have proposed to decrease its speed, decrease its damage, or to perhaps even remove the weapon altogether. I'd prefer a speed decrease and a slight length increase, in turns making the weapon more tactical and giving it more tactical options. If all one has in response to these ideas are weak syllogisms about anything overpowered being therefore universal then they should leave this thread now.
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are you EU or something? because every 9/10 players worth a damn on NA have a 2hander or pole, and the few shielders there are even fewer use the pick
im on NA, and cut out the hyperbole. Shielders are popular, and you always see a steel pick used in combination with a huscarl shield on NA. Every time. Every map.
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im on NA, and cut out the hyperbole. Shielders are popular, and you always see a steel pick used in combination with a huscarl shield on NA. Every time. Every map.
Not sure where you are playing but dedicated shielders probably account for less 1/3 of the NA players. And the % of those players being in the top 3 isnt even in the same ballpark as the 2h/polestunners.
The only pick user I can name off the top of my head is Ishtar Neo and hes more of an annoyance than a threat. Hes always the last to die vs about 5 other enemies and rarely kills more than 1 of them. Compare that to a 2h user that would kill 3 or more enemies and still have a chance of winning.
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You can argue who tops the scoreboard with what, but that doesn't speak to what I am talking about. Steel picks are ridiculously common.
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Not sure where you are playing but dedicated shielders probably account for less 1/3 of the NA players. And the % of those players being in the top 3 isnt even in the same ballpark as the 2h/polestunners.
The only pick user I can name off the top of my head is Ishtar Neo and hes more of an annoyance than a threat. Hes always the last to die vs about 5 other enemies and rarely kills more than 1 of them. Compare that to a 2h user that would kill 3 or more enemies and still have a chance of winning.
How about all the 2sekc clan except Lubu, Murrough (when not using a warhammer), several of the ishtar clan, diomedes used to use it, Kalam (without a shield) countless numbers of pubbies, basically it replaced the side sword as the most commonly used 1her along with the long espada.
Diomedes, I agree, probably 2-3 speed slower +5 length, -2 damage and that should be perfect. Its like the 2handed iron mace that was 100 speed (102 with masterworked) doing 36 blunt when triple heirloomed and only 70 length compared to 64. But you didn't get to use a shield with it to easily get up close. But the speed and damage made it a highly effective weapon (I loved this non-stabbing weapon, but ti did need a nerf). Post this last patch it dropped down to 99 speed and 30 damage with triple heirlooming adding +3 damage and NO speed bonus (no real reason to heirloom actually). So why is the triple heirloomed pick 100 speed and 36 pierce damage, when it has almost the same length, but is used with an autoblocking shield?
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That's all irrelevant. The steel pick is a short weapon which, unless you know how to use it, is difficult and ineffective. A good example of this is Paroxysm, who just described the build in exactly the way one who's inexperienced with it would presume it needs to be played. I played with a warhammer (similar damage and length) for a long while in medium-heavy armour + huscarl and was quite effective. I didn't have high agi but generally well-balanced builds (18/18, 15/21, etc.). It's easier to kill with a short weapon than people seem to suppose - it just requires a change in tactics.
Even when one is quite good with the class one may not actually find it fun. I moved away from short 1h weapon with the new patch and haven't gone back. It's not because I'm more effective now, or because of aesthetic value, but because the pick has just one dominating tactic that must be used if it's to be effective. Other load-outs, such as my current sword+board combo, are often more interesting to play.
The point of this thread is that the pick's primary weakness, its length, is not significant enough to balance out its exceptional speed and damage. People have proposed to decrease its speed, decrease its damage, or to perhaps even remove the weapon altogether. I'd prefer a speed decrease and a slight length increase, in turns making the weapon more tactical and giving it more tactical options. If all one has in response to these ideas are weak syllogisms about anything overpowered being therefore universal then they should leave this thread now.
Wow, very well put... haha
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How about all the 2sekc clan except Lubu, Murrough (when not using a warhammer), several of the ishtar clan, diomedes used to use it, Kalam (without a shield) countless numbers of pubbies, basically it replaced the side sword as the most commonly used 1her along with the long espada.
Good post. I can confirm that all these players are frequent members of the top of the scoreboard.
Diomedes, I agree, probably 2-3 speed slower +5 length, -2 damage and that should be perfect.
You just described the military pick. I agree that this would make the weapon much more balanced, but the military pick would need to be changed as well in order to not have two clone weapons.
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Diomedes, I agree, probably 2-3 speed slower +5 length, -2 damage and that should be perfect.
Steel pick
Range: 69
Speed: 96
Pierce damage: 31
I think everyone can agree that this is perfectly balanced. Thread over.
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97 seems better to me, just for parity with the warhammer.
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Steel pick
Range: 69
Speed: 96
Pierce damage: 31
I think everyone can agree that this is perfectly balanced. Thread over.
Military Pick:
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 1
Jog on, buddy!
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I think the steel pick is fine. I don't really see the game centralizing upon this item, especially compared to other classes and weapons. You can scream nerf but all of these surgical changes are unhealthy in the end.
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I think the steel pick is fine. I don't really see the game centralizing upon this item, especially compared to other classes and weapons. You can scream nerf but all of these surgical changes are unhealthy in the end.
people complain all the time about the bec de corbin... yet this weapon does only 3 less damage and is WAY faster than a bec, only takes up 1 slot, and can be used with a shield. I was going to take the time to list all the 2h and polearm weapons that this does more damage than, but the list is so ridiculously long that it would take forever to write.
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I think the steel pick is fine. I don't really see the game centralizing upon this item, especially compared to other classes and weapons. You can scream nerf but all of these surgical changes are unhealthy in the end.
Why?
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Military Pick:
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 1
Jog on, buddy!
Yup. That's the joke.
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I play an hybrid 1h/archer, with "only" 100 wpf in 1h, 5 PS, and... a fighting pick. (i don't have money ) As soon as i loot a steel pick, i just want to drop my bow and go melee, since the weapon is awesome. The pierce damage, a good footwork, and easy headhits makes it a deadly weapon. No wonder the 3rd heirloom is "deadly steel pick". Who cares about the range, i block once and i'm in range. Don't even need a shield for it.
Thing is, usually, when you have the same sort of weapon, having a "higher tier" version of ones, gives : more damage, less speed. What we have here with the steel pick is : more damage, more speed. So it's WAY better than the military pick, for a mere 2k more gold. That's why we see close to no military pick around. Or you can afford the steel pick, or you'll take the fighting pick.
Fighting Pick
weapon length: 70
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 8
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 25 pierce
slots: 1
Cost : 1534 gold
Difference between fighting and military :
+0,8 weight, + 5 difficulty, +6 dmg.
Military Pick
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 1
Cost : 6094 gold
Difference between fighting and military :
-1 difficulty, +2 dmg, +1 speed.
So you actually get a better weapon, that you can use earlier than the previously (less str needed). Something is just not right. -_-
Steel Pick
weapon length: 64
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 64
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 33 pierce
slots: 1
Cost : 8373 gold
I would propose this version :
Steel Pick
weapon length: 67 (+3)
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 14 (+2)
speed rating: 97 (-2)
weapon length: 67 (+3)
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 33 pierce
slots: 1
Cost : 8373 gold
It's still valuable thanks to the high pierce damage, but more balanced statwise. And i don't care at all about the length, so just put a +3 there.
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people complain all the time about the bec de corbin... yet this weapon does only 3 less damage and is WAY faster than a bec, only takes up 1 slot, and can be used with a shield. I was going to take the time to list all the 2h and polearm weapons that this does more damage than, but the list is so ridiculously long that it would take forever to write.
except a steel pick doesnt stun you, guaranteeing a free 2nd hit. And people using a steel pick also have shield skills and therefore generally less PS. Quit crying about it already.
Bec users probably outnumber pick users 10:1 easily
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except a steel pick doesnt stun you, guaranteeing a free 2nd hit. And people using a steel pick also have shield skills and therefore generally less PS. Quit crying about it already.
Bec isn't fast enough for permastun. If you get stunned out of a second block, then you either have lag issues, or just plain suck.
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except a steel pick doesnt stun you, guaranteeing a free 2nd hit. And people using a steel pick also have shield skills and therefore generally less PS. Quit crying about it already.
Bec users probably outnumber pick users 10:1 easily
I've used a steel pick with 24/15 quite happily and can still 1-shot guys in full plate if I get a head hit, or 2-hit if I get good body shots. Also, as I already said, the frequency with which a weapon is used is irrelevant to whether or not it is overpowered.
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the frequency with which a weapon is used is irrelevant to whether or not it is overpowered.
Actually that is EXACTLY THE POINT. If it was so overpowered you would see a HUGE SURGE in the number of people using it, just like you do with polearms right now. The fact that is is UNCOMMON proves exactly that is just fine and balanced.
Maybe you've been asleep thru your internet gaming, people will gravitate toward what gives them the most reward for the energy involved, and that sure aint picks.
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Actually that is EXACTLY THE POINT. If it was so overpowered you would see a HUGE SURGE in the number of people using it, just like you do with polearms right now. The fact that is is UNCOMMON proves exactly that is just fine and balanced.
Maybe you've been asleep thru your internet gaming, people will gravitate toward what gives them the most reward for the energy involved, and that sure aint picks.
We have covered this point before, steel pick users are actually rather common and are if not the most popular, at the very elast 2nd most popular 1handed weapon. Just like throwing you never saw a HUGE SURGE, but over last couple months they have definitely become exceedingly prevalent and will only become more popular as the other 1hers got nerfed by the last patch.
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Actually that is EXACTLY THE POINT. If it was so overpowered you would see a HUGE SURGE in the number of people using it, just like you do with polearms right now. The fact that is is UNCOMMON proves exactly that is just fine and balanced.
Maybe you've been asleep thru your internet gaming, people will gravitate toward what gives them the most reward for the energy involved, and that sure aint picks.
That's all irrelevant. The steel pick is a short weapon which, unless you know how to use it, is difficult and ineffective. . . . It's easier to kill with a short weapon than people seem to suppose - it just requires a change in tactics.
Even when one is quite good with the class one may not actually find it fun. I moved away from short 1h weapon with the new patch and haven't gone back. It's not because I'm more effective now, or because of aesthetic value, but because the pick has just one dominating tactic that must be used if it's to be effective. Other load-outs, such as my current sword+board combo, are often more interesting to play.
It helps to pay closer attention when reading through a thread. As already covered, it can be the case that something is easy but not fun, or fun but not easy. It can also be the case that something is easy and fun but has a steep and painful learning curve before it becomes so. Additionally, things which are easy and fun can quickly become painful depending on the kind of situation in which they're used. Your argument is completely unsound.
As a note on your style it's worth pointing out that you're more credible when you don't reduce your claims to hyperbole or clearly ill-conceived arguments. If you really want to make a sound argument do it right - else you're just wasting your own and every other interested person's time.
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As a note on your style it's worth pointing out that you're more credible when you don't reduce your claims to hyperbole or clearly ill-conceived arguments. If you really want to make a sound argument do it right - else you're just wasting your own and every other interested person's time.
Wise words. Be sure to base your argument on reality, and not the la-la land you make in your head. As many people have stated, and you have yet to refute, the steel pick does considerably more effective damage than an overwhelming number of two handed weapons and polearms, while still carrying the extremely high attack speed it has.
I can reaffirm what Kesh has stated earlier, it is one of the most common 1h weapons in the game. Additionally, there has not been a "huge surge" in the number of polearm users. In fact, the number of polearm users has remained fairly static. It is not, in fact, uncommon, and even if it were, it would not prove that it was "fine and balanced." Please put some thought into your future arguments rather than waste your own time, and the time any potential readers, with writing and posting of fictional "facts."
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Wise words. Be sure to base your argument on reality, and not the la-la land you make in your head. As many people have stated, and you have yet to refute, the steel pick does considerably more effective damage than an overwhelming number of two handed weapons and polearms, while still carrying the extremely high attack speed it has.
I can reaffirm what Kesh has stated earlier, it is one of the most common 1h weapons in the game. Additionally, there has not been a "huge surge" in the number of polearm users. In fact, the number of polearm users has remained fairly static. It is not, in fact, uncommon, and even if it were, it would not prove that it was "fine and balanced."
Oh its only the '2nd' most used 1h weapon behind swords...which still makes it used by probably less than 5-10% of the players...thats "uncommon" in my book. Spare me your intellectual wannabe drivel about arguments, you've got your perceptions and I have mine (which is very high due to my high wisdom modifiers). Its a shame the mod doesnt keep stats like Valve games and you guys could eat your words.
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Digglez continues to repeat his same old argument of pointing out correlations without attempting to even explain the causation.
Is he trolling?? my high wisdom modifiers
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Digglez continues to repeat his same old argument of pointing out correlations without attempting to even explain the causation.
Is he trolling??
Is he trolling? At this point, most likely. Either that, or he has problems reading.
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About that overuse
One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5: 70748 (20.61%)
48582 swords
14707 picks+maces
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Someone mentioned "why?" about surgical changes. Sometimes if you keep altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons, it makes the situation worse. Actual thought and proof need to go into these factual arguments, not people spouting random BS that may not even be true.
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48582 swords
14707 picks+maces
Pretty steep ratio when you consider out of the 76 one handed weapons, only 10 of them are viable picks or maces. I'm being pretty liberal with the term "viable" there too.
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About that overuse
One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5: 70748 (20.61%)
48582 swords
14707 picks+maces
Awesome! Thanks for the numbers. Do you have access to NA stats as well?
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Pretty steep ratio when you consider out of the 76 one handed weapons, only 10 of them are viable picks or maces. I'm being pretty liberal with the term "viable" there too.
How many viable swords are there?
Awesome! Thanks for the numbers. Do you have access to NA stats as well?
I don't have NA logs access. You'd have to ask the people who have server logs.
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About that overuse
One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5: 70748 (20.61%)
48582 swords
14707 picks+maces
On thing that probably "breaks" thoses stats are 1h/cav people. They're ALL carrying a 1h sword.
So when we're speaking of 1h infantry, i'm pretty sure there's "only" twice as much kills with a sword then with a pick, even though there's like 10 times more people with a sword than with a pick (say Mr Digglez). Wich would mean pick user have a better k/d ratio than sword. So... that the pick is overpowered ?
And anyway, stats are cool, but you must also take into account that there's a lot of people who don't care about their weapons stats, or just want a sword cause it's cool, or whatever. Whereas a pick isn't. I mean, you're a miner or a fighter ? :rolleyes:
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The short length is almost a blessing when used with a large shield like the lolscarl, since it's harder to spot, I.E. harder to block.
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On thing that probably "breaks" thoses stats are 1h/cav people. They're ALL carrying a 1h sword.
So when we're speaking of 1h infantry, i'm pretty sure there's "only" twice as much kills with a sword then with a pick, even though there's like 10 times more people with a sword than with a pick (say Mr Digglez). Wich would mean pick user have a better k/d ratio than sword. So... that the pick is overpowered ?
And anyway, stats are cool, but you must also take into account that there's a lot of people who don't care about their weapons stats, or just want a sword cause it's cool, or whatever. Whereas a pick isn't. I mean, you're a miner or a fighter ? :rolleyes:
Your statistical intuition is most entertaining, sir, keep up the good clownery! Certainly, 1h cav is responsible for more than 40% of 1h sword kills. And certainly, steel picks are responsible for 100% of total pick+mace kills. Certainly.
Seriously, though, if you nerf the steel pick, 1h+shield kills will likely drop below 20%. That's just sad. Maybe remove the steel pick and buff all other 1h?
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Someone mentioned "why?" about surgical changes. Sometimes if you keep altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons, it makes the situation worse. Actual thought and proof need to go into these factual arguments, not people spouting random BS that may not even be true.
The proof is in the pudding. I'm an experienced 1h player, I've played with most kinds of 1h weapon and have fair room to say some are more powerful than others. The steel pick is an exceptionally powerful weapon because it has significant strengths (speed, damage) and its key weakness (length) is largely mitigated by the presence of a shield. I think you're being presumptive in posting these statements because it ignores 1. the comparison of steel pick damage to other weapons (e.g. the bec, the warhammer, etc.) 2. the analysis of the value of weapon length with and without a shield 3. the specific capacity of the steel pick to easily hit the head on left-to-right swings 4. the exceptional speed of the pick for a weapon which already limits an opponent's reaction time because of its size/shape.
This thread has been centered on a fact-based discussion of why the steel pick is an unbalanced weapon. This does not constitute "altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons" because it's a discussion which is factually based. Leaping into the middle of a discussion is precisely the sort of thing which can lead one to believe there is an absence of "thought and proof" when so much has already been provided.
Seriously, though, if you nerf the steel pick, 1h+shield kills will likely drop below 20%. That's just sad. Maybe remove the steel pick and buff all other 1h?
I'd like it to lose 2 speed until the devs decide what to do. -2 speed puts it above the military pick but below crazytown speeds.
It's worth pointing out, again, that my arguments about weapon frequency are still standing. Unless someone demonstrates they're false I suggest we ignore all issues of weapon frequency or average kill/death ratios. Such things are very circumstantial and ought not be considered the primary motivation for nerfing or not nerfing an item.
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I'm not sure if the data provided gives us enough information. We can only speculate so much of the effectiveness of the steel pick from that data.
Usually things need to be tweaked if there exists an overcentralizing tactic or equipment/build combination. You can list all the pros of the steel pick, but in what ways do we know it's overcentralizing? I understand that it is a very good weapon. The notions about using/not using it because of fun is irrelevant.
I just want to stress caution and more discussion with a general consensus, especially since after reading through this topic again there were still some divergent opinions on viable tactics against the steel pick, mostly in discussing how much length is a weakness, and the amount of steel picks seen in regular matches.
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About that overuse
One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5: 70748 (20.61%)
48582 swords
14707 picks+maces
Cool stats, doesn't really help much though if 80% of the pick+maces categories are steel pick kills and 30% of sword kills are long espada, they would still be 2 most popular 1handed weapons. Most of the other picks and maces are rarely used because if you are going to use one then you are going to use the OP steel pick not the cheaper picks in the game which are both slower and do less damage.
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How many viable swords are there?
Quite a few in my opinion. I would say anything from the nomad sabre up can be effective. Probably around 40. Maybe more.
As Kesh and others have said though, it does depend on the individual use of each sword. I'm sure the "simple sword" doesn't rack up half as many kills as the gross messenger or long espanda, just like I would be shocked if the knobbed mace had a fifth as many kills as the steel pick.
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Cool stats, doesn't really help much though if 80% of the pick+maces categories are steel pick kills and 30% of sword kills are long espada, they would still be 2 most popular 1handed weapons. Most of the other picks and maces are rarely used because if you are going to use one then you are going to use the OP steel pick not the cheaper picks in the game which are both slower and do less damage.
Warhammers are also in this category, and they are quite common. I also see some other maces from time to time, like the "Iberian Mace", and some other picks like the "Military Sickle". The latter, I use myself from time to time. I just wish it had 2 more damage; there's quite the gap from its 26 dmg to the next better pick's 31.
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Warhammers are also in this category, and they are quite common. I also see some other maces from time to time, like the "Iberian Mace", and some other picks like the "Military Sickle". The latter, I use myself from time to time. I just wish it had 2 more damage; there's quite the gap from its 26 dmg to the next better pick's 31.
I'm willing to bet that the steel pick is more common than the warhammer. I just don't see the warhammer that often on the battlefield anymore.
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Basically the numbers have shown that many of you are paranoid delusional about this supposedly legendary overpowered, so common its on very street corner, faster than a speeding bullet, uranium deleted armor piercing, cyborb implant, head shotting can opener weapon. It represents less than 1% of all kills from EU servers.
Its amazing what real data reveals, isnt it?
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Basically the numbers have shown that many of you are paranoid delusional about this supposedly legendary overpowered, so common its on very street corner, faster than a speeding bullet, uranium deleted armor piercing, cyborb implant, head shotting can opener weapon. It represents less than 1% of all kills from EU servers.
Its amazing what real data reveals, isnt it?
Seriosuly guys he's just trolling, he probably doesn't care if the pick gets rebalanced in line with all the other 1handed weapons. Why else would he make up a random statistic like that. Just ignore his trolling.
Anyway, its pretty obvious the steel pick needs rebalancing in the next patch, just the question is how much? Should it just become what the military pick is now and converge the 2 items into 1 (if you have heirlooms in either you have the heirloom in the new military/steel pick, like pre-january patch where military pick didn't exist)? Or should it just be the slower, but heavier hitting version of the pick with +0 to +1 damage, -4 to -5 speed? ANy other suggestions?
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I agree with the +0/+& dmg and -2/-3 speed. Anymore than that may be too bit of a nerf for that steel pick.
But something needs to be done. Think about the poor tincans. :mrgreen:
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I'd like to see +4 length, -2 speed, and -1 damage. The increased length will make it slightly more difficult to use in close quarters (like narrow hallways - where it dominates) and the nerfed speed and damage will make it a bit less extreme while still being a top-tier weapon of sorts.
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The steel pick is fine. Keep in mind that if you use a shield you swing significantly slower vs. not using a shield. On my 2h alt I regularly castor swing steel pick users and kill them with zee ease. As one of the shortest weapons in the game steel picks are also effectively useless against cavalry. It's one of the few 1h weapons that can actually make a dent against tanks. It does not need a nerf.
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Solution; make it unbalanced
It has a thin handle and a long head, and the head should weight alot more than the handle (as it's massive steel), which should make the weapon unbalanced.
Making it unbalanced will prevent super speed feinting where you cant see directions, which would make this weapon prefectly balanced.
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I see swords like the elite scimitar, nordic, and more used with more frequency and success. I rarely see pick users to be honest. Galgorth was the only one I recall who did much during my time playing.
I tried out the pick exclusively for a generation. It's definitely powerful. I believe people are underestimating the negatives of the lack of range. Others can play a strong keepaway game while maintaining the offensive advantage in most situations. There is more risk to going offensive than other weapons. You need to be in light armor or you'll be pretty useless with a pick.
The pick is great for quickly killing off other players in a 2v1 situation, and against slow, armored foes. I found that fighting players who outsped me was quite a task since I was outsped and outspaced. Same for the longer ranged 1h+shields. I felt as though I was disadvantaged in these situations, and had to outsmart my opponents multiple times to win.
With good footwork, I would be afraid of missing since it would miss after any sizable distance was made. Miss = death (light armor) if you truly believed you were going to hit.
1v2+ situations are difficult due to the spacing issue, having to be so close, and cav feel impossible to combat compared to other weapons.
This is from the opinion of an average player. If the weapon is really going to be nerfed, it should only be a very small nerf in the most critical problem area. Other best 1hs are on par with the steel pick.
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I think its a little to powerful, but it gives 1h a defense against tin cans. I use it pretty much only on heavy armored enemies and use swords for everyone else. I don't think it needs a nerf, its range is terrible and i find that very annoying. Very few people use picks anyways, i see it once maybe twice a day on NA Siege.
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No it's not, and I'm 2h at the moment, but I was 1H before and used steel pick a lot. Try it before you comment, i'm doing same/better scores with 2h weapons. IF you wan't to nerf it just make it more expensive.
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I dont have problems with steelpicks.
There are far more powerful weapons for 1h atm like the scimis.
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The steel pick is definitely a nasty weapon two hits and it drops tanks (with abit of luck). Thats nasty.
People bitched all the time about my warhammer which was quite powerful so I can imagine how nasty the steel pick is at 33p.
Mind you at only 64 range its hard to fight two handers that back peddle but if you manage to hit them..
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Mind you at only 64 range its hard to fight two handers that back peddle but if you manage to hit them..
Shhhhh....dont give them our secrets!
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If you can block and use your range correctly, the pick isn't a problem.
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it's a problem if you have low athletics
Anyway steel pick seems more or less OK.... maybe make it 32p?
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I dont think the steel pick need a nerf it fine as it is.