Steel Pick..?

[tankmen]

you sure it hasnt been nerfed? i took a half a dozen hits from one since patch n even seen it glance

[Shablagoo]

It's the shortest weapon in the game outside of peasant weapons.  How much worse does it really need to be? Less damage?  Might as well use the military pick.  Less speed?  Might as well use the warhammer. 

And of course if you heirloom it it's overpowered.  Every melee weapon heirloomed is overpowered unless it's already bad in the first place.  That's the whole point of heirlooming.

[Diomedes]

Less speed?  Might as well use the warhammer. 

The pick does slightly more damage and it's cheaper.  If the pick's speed were 98 it would still be faster than a mighty warhammer too.

And of course if you heirloom it it's overpowered.  Every melee weapon heirloomed is overpowered unless it's already bad in the first place.  That's the whole point of heirlooming.

No.  Heirlooms increase weapon power slightly and if they become "overpowered" then they're nerfed accordingly.  That's part of what the last big patch was all about: nerfing a class of heirloomed weapons which had become so powerful that vanilla weapons could hardly compete.  The great disparity of item quality placed an undue pressure on new players and strangled motivation to switch-up gear if it wasn't already heirloomed.  Now, heirlooms are more rare and, consequently, are more useful for their rarity than for their superior quality.  When I face off with an opponent using my masterwork Italian Sword my opponents assume I've a slower and less powerful weapon than I really do.  It's not about actually dealing more damage but deceiving opponents into mistaking the scenario.  That's why post-patch heirlooms are no longer so potent as they are personal.

[Paroxysm]

christ, now it's the pick? I swear some of you guys won't be happy until you can cleave shielders with impunity and shatter their shields with one hit from any weapon. yes the pick is a strong one hander with good dmg vs armor and is fairly fast, and you know why? 64 fucking length. it's the shortest non- peasant weapon in the game and practically needs to be triple loomed so you can pump athletics and actually get into range. and since you have to go heavy agi with light armor you better not fuck up once bc if you do that  9ps/70 hp tincan that already took 3 pick hits just needs to graze you once with any two hander to one shot your 12-15 str no IF build.

if the pick is so strong why do I rarely see anyone else using it?  yet every "good" player has either a gla, claymore, miodado, or bec nowadays - where are all these op pick users topping charts? I don't see them. there's a reason every "good" player sports a two hander or pole and it sure isn't bc it's harder, and now you wanna nerf one of the few good one handers.

and lol at the "mediocre players topping charts with the pick" comment when it's a thousand times easier to get 10 ps, a poleaxe and windmill around for victory. give a bad player a pick and a bec and see which he does better with, hint: it won't be the pick

[PieParadox]

So far as I've seen, most good players refuse to use it because they hardly get any respect for it. But yes I do think that the bec de corbin is now one of the best weapons... My heirloomed poleaxe is a slight disappointment now...

I think the problem with it is mainly its damage of 33 pierce. My poleaxe doesn't even do that much damage with a thrust.
I think that increasing its length and decreasing its damage might be a good compromise.

[Seawied]

if the pick is so strong why do I rarely see anyone else using it? 

I had to pick this out right here. I see it every single game. Its one of the few weapons I can honestly say that about.

[Paroxysm]

are you EU or something? because every 9/10 players worth a damn on NA have a 2hander or pole, and the few shielders there are even fewer use the pick

[Shablagoo]

Yeah, I probably see 10 becs for every 1 pick.

[Diomedes]

That's all irrelevant.  The steel pick is a short weapon which, unless you know how to use it, is difficult and ineffective.  A good example of this is Paroxysm, who just described the build in exactly the way one who's inexperienced with it would presume it needs to be played.  I played with a warhammer (similar damage and length) for a long while in medium-heavy armour + huscarl and was quite effective.  I didn't have high agi but generally well-balanced builds (18/18, 15/21, etc.).  It's easier to kill with a short weapon than people seem to suppose - it just requires a change in tactics. 

Even when one is quite good with the class one may not actually find it fun.  I moved away from short 1h weapon with the new patch and haven't gone back.  It's not because I'm more effective now, or because of aesthetic value, but because the pick has just one dominating tactic that must be used if it's to be effective.  Other load-outs, such as my current sword+board combo, are often more interesting to play. 

The point of this thread is that the pick's primary weakness, its length, is not significant enough to balance out its exceptional speed and damage.  People have proposed to decrease its speed, decrease its damage, or to perhaps even remove the weapon altogether.  I'd prefer a speed decrease and a slight length increase, in turns making the weapon more tactical and giving it more tactical options.  If all one has in response to these ideas are weak syllogisms about anything overpowered being therefore universal then they should leave this thread now.

[Seawied]

are you EU or something? because every 9/10 players worth a damn on NA have a 2hander or pole, and the few shielders there are even fewer use the pick

im on NA, and cut out the hyperbole. Shielders are popular, and you always see a steel pick used in combination with a huscarl shield on NA. Every time. Every map.

[Digglez]

im on NA, and cut out the hyperbole. Shielders are popular, and you always see a steel pick used in combination with a huscarl shield on NA. Every time. Every map.

Not sure where you are playing but dedicated shielders probably account for less 1/3 of the NA players.  And the % of those players being in the top 3 isnt even in the same ballpark as the 2h/polestunners.

The only pick user I can name off the top of my head is Ishtar Neo and hes more of an annoyance than a threat.  Hes always the last to die vs about 5 other enemies and rarely kills more than 1 of them. Compare that to a 2h user that would kill 3 or more enemies and still have a chance of winning.

[Seawied]

You can argue who tops the scoreboard with what, but that doesn't speak to what I am talking about. Steel picks are ridiculously common.

[Keshian]

Not sure where you are playing but dedicated shielders probably account for less 1/3 of the NA players.  And the % of those players being in the top 3 isnt even in the same ballpark as the 2h/polestunners.

The only pick user I can name off the top of my head is Ishtar Neo and hes more of an annoyance than a threat.  Hes always the last to die vs about 5 other enemies and rarely kills more than 1 of them. Compare that to a 2h user that would kill 3 or more enemies and still have a chance of winning.

How about all the 2sekc clan except Lubu, Murrough (when not using a warhammer),  several of the ishtar clan, diomedes used to use it, Kalam (without a shield) countless numbers of pubbies, basically it replaced the side sword as the most commonly used 1her along with the long espada.

Diomedes, I agree, probably 2-3 speed slower +5 length, -2 damage and that should be perfect.  Its like the 2handed iron mace that was 100 speed (102 with masterworked) doing 36 blunt when triple heirloomed and only 70 length compared to 64.  But you didn't get to use a shield with it to easily get up close.  But the speed and damage made it a highly effective weapon (I loved this non-stabbing weapon, but ti did need a nerf).  Post this last patch it dropped down to 99 speed and 30 damage with triple heirlooming adding +3 damage and NO speed bonus (no real reason to heirloom actually).  So why is the triple heirloomed pick 100 speed and 36 pierce damage, when it has almost the same length, but is used with an autoblocking shield?

[PieParadox]

That's all irrelevant.  The steel pick is a short weapon which, unless you know how to use it, is difficult and ineffective.  A good example of this is Paroxysm, who just described the build in exactly the way one who's inexperienced with it would presume it needs to be played.  I played with a warhammer (similar damage and length) for a long while in medium-heavy armour + huscarl and was quite effective.  I didn't have high agi but generally well-balanced builds (18/18, 15/21, etc.).  It's easier to kill with a short weapon than people seem to suppose - it just requires a change in tactics. 

Even when one is quite good with the class one may not actually find it fun.  I moved away from short 1h weapon with the new patch and haven't gone back.  It's not because I'm more effective now, or because of aesthetic value, but because the pick has just one dominating tactic that must be used if it's to be effective.  Other load-outs, such as my current sword+board combo, are often more interesting to play. 

The point of this thread is that the pick's primary weakness, its length, is not significant enough to balance out its exceptional speed and damage.  People have proposed to decrease its speed, decrease its damage, or to perhaps even remove the weapon altogether.  I'd prefer a speed decrease and a slight length increase, in turns making the weapon more tactical and giving it more tactical options.  If all one has in response to these ideas are weak syllogisms about anything overpowered being therefore universal then they should leave this thread now.

Wow, very well put... haha

[Seawied]

How about all the 2sekc clan except Lubu, Murrough (when not using a warhammer),  several of the ishtar clan, diomedes used to use it, Kalam (without a shield) countless numbers of pubbies, basically it replaced the side sword as the most commonly used 1her along with the long espada.

Good post. I can confirm that all these players are frequent members of the top of the scoreboard.

Diomedes, I agree, probably 2-3 speed slower +5 length, -2 damage and that should be perfect.

You just described the military pick. I agree that this would make the weapon much more balanced, but the military pick would need to be changed as well in order to not have two clone weapons.