Just a tiny buff please, either speed, or Dmg, the class is rare these days and now cav dominate EU1.
Bring back 360º roflcopter with poles.Well... that escalated quickly.
If there's an issue with pole thrust, that's not something that changing the stats would do other than alter the internal balance. It's consistent as you trade length for damage, speed, and utility from the pike to the long spear, bamboo spear, long awlpike, ashwood, etc. I believe that cav dominating the server is reason enough to bring one sometimes, assuming its defensive power against cav is still good.
Good idea imo, even tho I like being the one holding the longest pole on the battlefield most of the time.
the most recent pole thrust changes really seem to have been the last straw with killing off anyone who used these weapons, they just seem to glance way too much now
That would mean that you consider the pike a weapon which should work when fighting infantry, maybe even be a proper duel weapon?
That's nonsense in my eyes. There have to be weapons for experts in a niche. Pike should be one of those. I am divided about the longspear.
I'm more bothered about 2d poles and hoplites getting nerfed just because they screwed up with buffing the 1 hand stab so much. Should have just made the 1 hand stab less ridiculous than nerf a whole class of weapons at the same time
I'm more bothered about 2d poles and hoplites getting nerfed just because they screwed up with buffing the 1 hand stab so much. Should have just made the 1 hand stab less ridiculous than nerf a whole class of weapons at the same timeHoplite stab has been adjusted together with lance stab since the polearm stab change and is OP as hell, once again.
Give ability to pike/long spear to couch weapon:This would be terrible and you should feel bad for suggesting it, all it takes is one thought about what bracing would accomplish on EU 1 and you can discard the entire idea.
Pike Brace Animation :(click to show/hide)
Give ability to pike/long spear to couch weapon:Killed by ranged...
Pike Brace Animation :
Does the long spear have the same problem with stunned stabs as the pike? If so, increasing the speed wouldn't really help even if the speed is increased to the 70s, then, assuming speed helps with these things.
I do agree that pikes are easier to fight against on (heavy) horse, wasn't sure how many others shared that opinion. This situation occurs mostly when they're isolated, though, since they're still tough if they have a teammate backing them up. Many people, including me, forget at times that horses still have 0 armor at the legs. Pikes still don't have the damage to down most horses by itself, but a pocket military fork would help.
Your idea of a pocket military fork is kind of flawed when both of the weapons take up 3 slots and military fork is 2. And plus you should think that the Longspear/Pike should do the job in the first place, something it was designed for IRL.
Kafein, the point still stands that if you would put as much effort in your 1h stabs as long polearm users put in their face-hug stabs you wouldn't glance either. Polearmers that stab at facehug reach with long weapons practiced stabbing at close reach because they need it. Just because most 1h do not need it and haven't put any effort in learning to do it, does not mean that they can't. 1h stab can stab easily at any reach. 1h stab is fucking great, Kafein, if you disagree l2stab I guess.
Kafein, the point still stands that if you would put as much effort in your 1h stabs as long polearm users put in their face-hug stabs you wouldn't glance either.is that it takes much more effort and accuracy to do that with 1h weapons. The 1h animations stay active and in their sweetspot for just a few milliseconds, all while traveling by far the shortest distance of the three animations. Hence with the kind of lag that we have, turning into them to face an opponent with undefined coordinates is almost a sure miss or glance. Think about your ferret-inspired motion-sickness inducing playstyle and take that to power 11, and you get what it takes to reliably land 1h stabs at close ranges nowadays.
Your idea of a pocket military fork is kind of flawed when both of the weapons take up 3 slots and military fork is 2. And plus you should think that the Longspear/Pike should do the job in the first place, something it was designed for IRL.
I doubt you have played much 1h stab since the latest sweetspot changes. I don't pretend I'm the authority in 1h stabbing, and it's still fucking great compared to what it was in 2012. However, it got doubly nerfed at its intended role with the sweetspot changes and the start delay. Both nerfs only had a minor impact on other stabbing weapons, which are intended to be good at longer ranges than 1h, and are indeed much better at that.Polearms actually travel the shortest distance.
The problem with the statementis that it takes much more effort and accuracy to do that with 1h weapons. The 1h animations stay active and in their sweetspot for just a few milliseconds, all while traveling by far the shortest distance of the three animations. Hence with the kind of lag that we have, turning into them to face an opponent with undefined coordinates is almost a sure miss or glance. Think about your ferret-inspired motion-sickness inducing playstyle and take that to power 11, and you get what it takes to reliably land 1h stabs at close ranges nowadays.
I believe the reason people got so mad at 1h stabs when they were good was that it combined speed with range unheard of for 1h swords. For the first time 1h weapons had effective range reflecting their animations. Now they are back at being shite both up close and far away. Even though now using 1h stabs at maximum range is completely random and particularly infuriating against heavy armor, at least it makes sense. That 1h stabs got so bad at close range however, is just stupid.
Yaroslav facehug stabbing like the old days and after trying it a bit myself it still works fine. You just need to time it a little better.
Why should he be able to facehug stab with a pike or long spear? That's a mechanic that should be stopped.He's facehug stabbing,
Why should he be able to facehug stab with a pike or long spear? That's a mechanic that should be stopped.
Why? Because it is not realistic? About 90% of cRPG is unrealistic.
That's partly a reason for it. Besides that however it takes away from role diversity in the mod. Each weapon should have a role and something it's good for. Allowing a 12 foot spear to fill the role of a 2 foot sword destroys that.Long spears don't fulfill the role of swords in any way at all.
Long spears don't fulfill the role of swords in any way at all.
And if you think facehug stab is not realistic... You can block this 12 foot spear by just downblocking, don't forget about that.
Explain how this mechanic is desirable for the game.Easy: class balancing reason. If you take away this little part of longspear gameplay, this weapon which is already barely used would be completely abandoned.
Why would that be a problem? If a weapon doesn't have a role, it shouldn't be on the battlefield.Why would you completely remove an extremely important aspect of melee combat historically because longspears can hit closer than they should? In a game where every polearm can hit closer than they should and any stab can hit at face hug reach. A longspear does have a role, it is a support weapon and if you think a longspear offers even remotely as much utility as a 2h up close, you are mad and clearly never tried a longspear yourself. Hitting up close is easily countered with downblock, deals crap damage and requires a lot of effort. Besides, it is extremely hard to fix. The pike can't do it, it can stab straight through objects and teammates instead, yay.
I don't think the classes should be balanced. If a spearman wants to fight up close, let him drop the spear and go to his secondary weapon.
Before someone implements the aformentioned (http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/longspears-and-pikes-need-a-little-love/msg1007721/#msg1007721) brace (couch) animation for pikes and long spears, they will likely stay as they are. Imo it would be great to have the ability for pikemen. You could defend tight spaces and corridors with just a few pikemen representing an actual pikewall formation. And against one pikeman you can still chamber the "couch". The angle or turn speed has to be limited of course not to make it too stong, but it already seems to me that the lance couch has a really slow turn speed, especially with the great lance, so I guess that would be possible.I literally do not understand how you can see bracing as a useful thing in cRPG. People would just walk around you or shoot you in the face. Why would you willingly abandon all movement to become a wooden stake? For realistic pike use, you should be able to brace it while moving but I don't think the engine supports that kind of hit detection. Thank fuck MBG will.
I literally do not understand how you can see bracing as a useful thing in cRPG. People would just walk around you or shoot you in the face. Why would you willingly abandon all movement to become a wooden stake? For realistic pike use, you should be able to brace it while moving but I don't think the engine supports that kind of hit detection. Thank fuck MBG will.
Why would you completely remove an extremely important aspect of melee combat historically because longspears can hit closer than they should? In a game where every polearm can hit closer than they should and any stab can hit at face hug reach. A longspear does have a role, it is a support weapon and if you think a longspear offers even remotely as much utility as a 2h up close, you are mad and clearly never tried a longspear yourself. Hitting up close is easily countered with downblock, deals crap damage and requires a lot of effort. Besides, it is extremely hard to fix. The pike can't do it, it can stab straight through objects and teammates instead, yay.
If this is a realism argument then I got a counter for you. The thing about long spears in real life is that they can keep opponents at bay, they are always solid objects able to push and stab. In Warband they are not solid objects and can only stab, something which can be defended against much easier against than in real life as well. As soon as you downblock there is nothing to stop you from facehugging the longspear user. The only reason people use facehug stabbing techniques is because closing in on them is unrealistically easy.
Note, I never said that spears did not have a role. I said that in their present form they are allowed to perform the role of short melee weapons in addition to their support role.Using that logic a 1h sword can perform a support role in addition to their short melee weapon role because they can support people with their long and accurate stab. Yes, they are crap at supporting compared to a longspear, but a longspear is much more crap at performing as a short melee weapon than a 1h sword. Ah well, the entire discussion is moot anyway as it is too tricky to fix even if desired. So as long as you don't assume a longspear is harmless up close and throw the occasional block in there you should be able to live with it.
Pikes are quite strong still, I don't see a point in buffing them. As long as you have teammates around, it's really really effective. Combined with heavy armor and lots of IF makes me a tank and is prolly quite frustrating to enemies. Against cavalry, Awlpike has always been the best weapon imo. Enough reach to fight anything but a heavy/great lance and those you can outmaneuver with enough agi, or just block if you fail and that damage... Long Awlpike might actually be even better, but I don't have that one +3 :rolleyes:
Pike is a support weapon and works wonders in that context. 1 on 1 you're pretty much done, unless you're very experienced with the spinjumpstabbing kicking and blocking. Nudges are amazing though, with 30 strength I can throw people five meters back possibly giving me enough room to run to team mates :)
Edit: nerf->buff
Polearms actually travel the shortest distance.
The second (or perhaps third) part of my thrust change proposal that was passed late last year, was to increase the duration of the 1h and pole thrust's release animation by 100ms (.1 seconds). Two-Handed weapons have had a .7 duration for ages now, while the 1h and pole duration is about .6 seconds. This change would cause the weapons to hit about 5-10ms(before stats get applied)later in the animation, yet widen the duration of the sweetspot by about 20ms, while keeping everything else the same. Sweetspots wouldn't change and you still wouldn't see any hanging thrusts(all the frame data stays the same).
This hasn't been done since I wanted to see whether or not it would even be necessary. Perhaps it would be good for 1h since their weapon speeds are so much higher on average, but for poles, I can't help but blame the animation itself for nearly all the problems it has(from both a user and enemy perspective).
That really surprises me. Ever since the turn rate nerf, it feels like polearm stabs connect based on a point that emerges from the hands and goes towards the tip of the weapon as the animation progresses. Facehug stabs that before the change would just not connect, now they do. So there's definitely something happening. The point is that neither high or low range work reliably for 1h, whereas 2h can hit stabs at maximum range with no penalty whatsoever, and polearms can somehow facehug stab better than 1h do (that's my personal experience comparing playing awlpike and LEE mostly). I feel the previous sweetspot values were better balanced and much, much, much more fun.The emboldened statement is how it works for all weapons all of the time. A collision "bar" gets extended from the right hand following the orientation of the weapon, with its length being decided by the weapon's 'length' stat. The thing with the polearm thrust, is that the first part of the animation, unlike 2h or 1h, has the weapon hardly moving at all. This causes people to think "he just hasn't released his thrust yet" when in fact, he released .1-.15 seconds ago. So it seems like it's an instant thrust, but it's actually not.
I think that current stabs should be a little bit slower before becoming active. Honestly facehug stabs are definitely too fast when they don't bounce, which is just a buff to armor. But stabs should also be a little bit easier to use once they become active, and not be restricted to such a small time and range window.
The emboldened statement is how it works for all weapons all of the time. A collision "bar" gets extended from the right hand following the orientation of the weapon, with its length being decided by the weapon's 'length' stat. The thing with the polearm thrust, is that the first part of the animation, unlike 2h or 1h, has the weapon hardly moving at all. This causes people to think "he just hasn't released his thrust yet" when in fact, he released .1-.15 seconds ago. So it seems like it's an instant thrust, but it's actually not.
The reason wy no one plays pike is because its boring as fuck to play with,
Heresy! It's by far the most fun and challenging class in the game 8-)
You barely see Long Spears or Pikes on EU in general.
As far as I have noticed, Yaroslav, Pikeman and I are the only ones using them regularly. Then a few people like Teeth, Kenda or one or two others I don't know the names of use it every now and then. (Sorry if I forgot someone)
I don't really mind since I hate fighting Pikes and Long Spears in a clusterfuck :D Those weapons don't need any buff at all, all it takes is gettting used to them.
Duelling with a Long Spear takes a lot of effort, with a Pike even more so. And I guess people want it the easy way so they just don't touch them.
I've been using the pike for the past 2 days, first time I've ever levelled a melee alt up to 30. The only problem I have is that on eu1 there is 0 teamwork. Big clans like seljuks Mercs eques byz never seem to stick together. Even if there is a commander people don't listen or either bother following a battalion. If there was constant teamwork I think a lot more pikes would be used. I don't think a buff is needed, just more teamwork.
There is niche in which the Pike or Longspear fill, it has no individuality, what i would like to see is that the pike can 1 shot horses riding into it at full speed and so on, something to make it individual and give people a reason to take it.
I dont think expressed myself properly in the OP, my issue is, that the Pike and Longspear have become somewhat a novelty item, there are much better weapons that do the same job and more.
Take for example the awlpike, does more dmg, better for killing cav, better in melee combat, in ganking situation i would rather have an awlpike.
Another example the Poleaxe.
And i think you get the idea....
There is niche in which the Pike or Longspear fill, it has no individuality, what i would like to see is that the pike can 1 shot horses riding into it at full speed and so on, something to make it individual and give people a reason to take it.