Longspears and Pikes need a little love

[Molly]

That would mean that you consider the pike a weapon which should work when fighting infantry, maybe even be a proper duel weapon?

That's nonsense in my eyes. There have to be weapons for experts in a niche. Pike should be one of those. I am divided about the longspear.

[Grumbs]

I'm more bothered about 2d poles and hoplites getting nerfed just because they screwed up with buffing the 1 hand stab so much. Should have just made the 1 hand stab less ridiculous than nerf a whole class of weapons at the same time

[722_]

I actually find the the pike is too long for fighting cav, its better for catching unaware players with its reach but once you stop a horse you cant do much. long awlpike and long spear are better for me at least

[Nightmare798]

Good idea imo, even tho I like being the one holding the longest pole on the battlefield most of the time.

Makes you feel like you are totally not overcompensating for something eh?


EDIT: Just fix the block barrier of cav and it will even out.

[Elio]

Give ability to pike/long spear to couch weapon:

Pike Brace Animation :

[Relit]

I will only comment on the Pike because its all I use:

I agree that the block stun should be looked at a bit, a little pole dancing can save you a bit but having to constantly be aware that sometimes you are going to get hit because the game will not let you block is a bit off-putting to newer pike users. I also think that the blocking on horseback needs some looking at.

the most recent pole thrust changes really seem to have been the last straw with killing off anyone who used these weapons, they just seem to glance way too much now

I have barely noticed any more glancing. I think people were turning a bit too much while stabbing and got used to that style. I think if people would go back to the basics and go for the lower armored parts of the enemy (typically head and foot) they would find more success. Most players have always been swerving around and spinning with the Pike and the recent changes effected those kind of players the most.

[Kafein]

That would mean that you consider the pike a weapon which should work when fighting infantry, maybe even be a proper duel weapon?

That's nonsense in my eyes. There have to be weapons for experts in a niche. Pike should be one of those. I am divided about the longspear.

This.

I'm more bothered about 2d poles and hoplites getting nerfed just because they screwed up with buffing the 1 hand stab so much. Should have just made the 1 hand stab less ridiculous than nerf a whole class of weapons at the same time

Don't worry, polestabs are still leagues better than anything 1h can achieve since the last nerf. Facehug stab with a 150 length polearm ? No problem. Do that with a 95 length 1h and you'll enjoy a nice bounce. The nominal damage of some very dedicated 1h stabbing swords is better than that of some polearms, but that's not relevant when the time window during which you can use that maximum damage is 3 frames, and anything outside of that window produces pitiful damage and bouncing.

[Teeth]

Kafein, the point still stands that if you would put as much effort in your 1h stabs as long polearm users put in their face-hug stabs you wouldn't glance either. Polearmers that stab at facehug reach with long weapons practiced stabbing at close reach because they need it. Just because most 1h do not need it and haven't put any effort in learning to do it, does not mean that they can't. 1h stab can stab easily at any reach. 1h stab is fucking great, Kafein, if you disagree l2stab I guess.

I can agree with Relit that the latest change to stab sweetspots did indeed not affect the Pike much, unless you try to do late stabs, which wasn't that effective before anyway. Didn't really have to modify my playstyle at all.

I'm more bothered about 2d poles and hoplites getting nerfed just because they screwed up with buffing the 1 hand stab so much. Should have just made the 1 hand stab less ridiculous than nerf a whole class of weapons at the same time

Hoplite stab has been adjusted together with lance stab since the polearm stab change and is OP as hell, once again.

Give ability to pike/long spear to couch weapon:

Pike Brace Animation :

(click to show/hide)

This would be terrible and you should feel bad for suggesting it, all it takes is one thought about what bracing would accomplish on EU 1 and you can discard the entire idea.

[San]

Does the long spear have the same problem with stunned stabs as the pike? If so, increasing the speed wouldn't really help even if the speed is increased to the 70s, then, assuming speed helps with these things.

I do agree that pikes are easier to fight against on (heavy) horse, wasn't sure how many others shared that opinion. This situation occurs mostly when they're isolated, though, since they're still tough if they have a teammate backing them up. Many people, including me, forget at times that horses still have 0 armor at the legs. Pikes still don't have the damage to down most horses by itself, but a pocket military fork would help.

[BlueKnight]

Give ability to pike/long spear to couch weapon:

Pike Brace Animation :

Killed by ranged...

[Strudog]

Does the long spear have the same problem with stunned stabs as the pike? If so, increasing the speed wouldn't really help even if the speed is increased to the 70s, then, assuming speed helps with these things.

I do agree that pikes are easier to fight against on (heavy) horse, wasn't sure how many others shared that opinion. This situation occurs mostly when they're isolated, though, since they're still tough if they have a teammate backing them up. Many people, including me, forget at times that horses still have 0 armor at the legs. Pikes still don't have the damage to down most horses by itself, but a pocket military fork would help.

The Longspear does get stunned sometimes, and its bloody annoying, what i also find that normal stabs against a person tend to bounce more than lol stabbing, i tend to find my self atm at any length i will lol stab because i have a higher chance of not glancing off the player.

Cav have an easy time at the moment for me, reason being that there a very few pikes and longspears and even if they manage to run into one, you need at least two other team mates to bring it down, if not the horse walks away with more than half its HP. Would there be any way of making the Longspear/Pike stab more deadly against horses, more like 1 hitting the horse if it is at full speed and runs into a pike?

Your idea of a pocket military fork is kind of flawed when both of the weapons take up 3 slots and military fork is 2. And plus you should think that the Longspear/Pike should do the job in the first place, something it was designed for IRL.

Also why bring a Longspear or a Pike when weapons like the Military fork and others do exactly the same job but better.

[Gurnisson]

Your idea of a pocket military fork is kind of flawed when both of the weapons take up 3 slots and military fork is 2. And plus you should think that the Longspear/Pike should do the job in the first place, something it was designed for IRL.

Military Fork is 1 slot, not 2. I carried a +3 military fork on the back when I was piking, but very rarely as I found it easier to kill people with the pike in 1v1.

[Kafein]

Kafein, the point still stands that if you would put as much effort in your 1h stabs as long polearm users put in their face-hug stabs you wouldn't glance either. Polearmers that stab at facehug reach with long weapons practiced stabbing at close reach because they need it. Just because most 1h do not need it and haven't put any effort in learning to do it, does not mean that they can't. 1h stab can stab easily at any reach. 1h stab is fucking great, Kafein, if you disagree l2stab I guess.

I doubt you have played much 1h stab since the latest sweetspot changes. I don't pretend I'm the authority in 1h stabbing, and it's still fucking great compared to what it was in 2012. However, it got doubly nerfed at its intended role with the sweetspot changes and the start delay. Both nerfs only had a minor impact on other stabbing weapons, which are intended to be good at longer ranges than 1h, and are indeed much better at that.

The problem with the statement

Kafein, the point still stands that if you would put as much effort in your 1h stabs as long polearm users put in their face-hug stabs you wouldn't glance either.

is that it takes much more effort and accuracy to do that with 1h weapons. The 1h animations stay active and in their sweetspot for just a few milliseconds, all while traveling by far the shortest distance of the three animations. Hence with the kind of lag that we have, turning into them to face an opponent with undefined coordinates is almost a sure miss or glance. Think about your ferret-inspired motion-sickness inducing playstyle and take that to power 11, and you get what it takes to reliably land 1h stabs at close ranges nowadays.

I believe the reason people got so mad at 1h stabs when they were good was that it combined speed with range unheard of for 1h swords. For the first time 1h weapons had effective range reflecting their animations. Now they are back at being shite both up close and far away. Even though now using 1h stabs at maximum range is completely random and particularly infuriating against heavy armor, at least it makes sense. That 1h stabs got so bad at close range however, is just stupid.

[Switchtense]

I am playing pokey polearm 95% of my time playing, then about 4% 4D polearms, the rest 1h.

When playing 1h I can easily facehug stab, no matter if it is with a 105 reach weapon, or a 95 reach weapon. I just stab the way I do with my polearms. Look up in the sky, then thrust tilt down stabbing the opponent's head most of the time.

Anyway, I guess I am part of the "Average player"-group, rather than someone exceptional such as Teeth or Chase or whatever. So I will toss in my 2 cents.

I am playing Long Spear a lot, used to pike a lot, too, but not anymore really, because facehug stabbing doesn't work with it, unless you jump etc.
But I think duelling with the Long Spear works perfectly fine. Obviously if you go to EU3 and duel someone there it is really tough to win, but when meeting someone on EU1 or EU2 they are easily outplayed cause they think you are an easy kill (Unless the enemy is a very good player)

Long Spear stabbing at facehug range works perfectly fine as well. It is a lot more difficult after the sweetspot change, but still doable after getting used to it.

The only thing that really winds me up about playing Pike or Long Spear is the stun when being blocked or when glancing.
I stab someone, he blocks and there is literally no way for me to block his next hit because I am just stunned.
My footwork is not good enough to just dodge the hit, so especially when the other guy is a str whore I am usually dead, or very close to being dead after he blocks me.

I wouldn't mind if it actually is possible to block a hit after being blocked/glancing when getting the timing right. But so far I have never managed to do so.
If I am just too bad, so that I have never managed to get the timing right, then ignore this one point

[San]

Your idea of a pocket military fork is kind of flawed when both of the weapons take up 3 slots and military fork is 2. And plus you should think that the Longspear/Pike should do the job in the first place, something it was designed for IRL.

If you stop a medium to heavy horse with a pike without the proper support nearby, I doubt you can kill it without having to switch to a more powerful weapon. Stop horse->switch to military fork. That was the only situation I was really focusing on there, since the spear, shortened spear, and quarterstaff would be a more suitable all-around 1 slot weapon against other classes.