Longspears and Pikes need a little love

[Mr.K.]

Pikes are quite strong still, I don't see a point in buffing them. As long as you have teammates around, it's really really effective. Combined with heavy armor and lots of IF makes me a tank and is prolly quite frustrating to enemies. Against cavalry, Awlpike has always been the best weapon imo. Enough reach to fight anything but a heavy/great lance and those you can outmaneuver with enough agi, or just block if you fail and that damage... Long Awlpike might actually be even better, but I don't have that one +3

Pike is a support weapon and works wonders in that context. 1 on 1 you're pretty much done, unless you're very experienced with the spinjumpstabbing kicking and blocking. Nudges are amazing though, with 30 strength I can throw people five meters back possibly giving me enough room to run to team mates

Edit: nerf->buff

[Tydeus]

I doubt you have played much 1h stab since the latest sweetspot changes. I don't pretend I'm the authority in 1h stabbing, and it's still fucking great compared to what it was in 2012. However, it got doubly nerfed at its intended role with the sweetspot changes and the start delay. Both nerfs only had a minor impact on other stabbing weapons, which are intended to be good at longer ranges than 1h, and are indeed much better at that.

The problem with the statementis that it takes much more effort and accuracy to do that with 1h weapons. The 1h animations stay active and in their sweetspot for just a few milliseconds, all while traveling by far the shortest distance of the three animations. Hence with the kind of lag that we have, turning into them to face an opponent with undefined coordinates is almost a sure miss or glance. Think about your ferret-inspired motion-sickness inducing playstyle and take that to power 11, and you get what it takes to reliably land 1h stabs at close ranges nowadays.

I believe the reason people got so mad at 1h stabs when they were good was that it combined speed with range unheard of for 1h swords. For the first time 1h weapons had effective range reflecting their animations. Now they are back at being shite both up close and far away. Even though now using 1h stabs at maximum range is completely random and particularly infuriating against heavy armor, at least it makes sense. That 1h stabs got so bad at close range however, is just stupid.

Polearms actually travel the shortest distance.

The second (or perhaps third) part of my thrust change proposal that was passed late last year, was to increase the duration of the 1h and pole thrust's release animation by 100ms (.1 seconds). Two-Handed weapons have had a .7 duration for ages now, while the 1h and pole duration is about .6 seconds. This change would cause the weapons to hit about 5-10ms(before stats get applied)later in the animation, yet widen the duration of the sweetspot by about 20ms, while keeping everything else the same. Sweetspots wouldn't change and you still wouldn't see any hanging thrusts(all the frame data stays the same).

This hasn't been done since I wanted to see whether or not it would even be necessary. Perhaps it would be good for 1h since their weapon speeds are so much higher on average, but for poles, I can't help but blame the animation itself for nearly all the problems it has(from both a user and enemy perspective).

[Turkhammer]

Yaroslav facehug stabbing like the old days and after trying it a bit myself it still works fine. You just need to time it a little better.

Why should he be able to facehug stab with a pike or long spear?  That's a mechanic that should be stopped.

[Macropus]

Why should he be able to facehug stab with a pike or long spear?  That's a mechanic that should be stopped.

He's facehug stabbing,
And this is crazy!
It should be stopped
So ban him maybe.

[Switchtense]

Why should he be able to facehug stab with a pike or long spear?  That's a mechanic that should be stopped.

Why? Because it is not realistic? About 90% of cRPG is unrealistic.

[Turkhammer]

Why? Because it is not realistic? About 90% of cRPG is unrealistic.

That's partly a reason for it.  Besides that however it takes away from role diversity in the mod.  Each weapon should have a role and something it's good for.  Allowing a 12 foot spear to fill the role of a 2 foot sword destroys that.  I think that players should be faced with a decision about how they will fight when they choose a weapon.  I don't think all weapons and classes should be able to do all things.  Allowing face hug stabbing with long spears and pikes is an especially egregious example.

Even if your figure of 90% is correct, why would we want to make it 95%?  Why not make it 85%?

[Macropus]

That's partly a reason for it.  Besides that however it takes away from role diversity in the mod.  Each weapon should have a role and something it's good for.  Allowing a 12 foot spear to fill the role of a 2 foot sword destroys that.

Long spears don't fulfill the role of swords in any way at all.
And if you think facehug stab is not realistic... You can block this 12 foot spear by just downblocking, don't forget about that.

[Turkhammer]

Long spears don't fulfill the role of swords in any way at all.
And if you think facehug stab is not realistic... You can block this 12 foot spear by just downblocking, don't forget about that.

Sure they do, at least partially,  if they can stab from 2 feet away. 

Why should a spear man have a range of 1 foot to however long his weapon is?  Doesn't that seem unbalanced versus a one hander who has a much shorter stab range?

I don't have a problem with down blocking a piker, but why should I have to from 1 foot away?

Explain how this mechanic is desirable for the game.

[Macropus]

Explain how this mechanic is desirable for the game.

Easy: class balancing reason. If you take away this little part of longspear gameplay, this weapon which is already barely used would be completely abandoned.

[Turkhammer]

Why would that be a problem?  If a weapon doesn't have a role, it shouldn't be on the battlefield. 
I don't think the classes should be balanced.  If a spearman wants to fight up close, let him drop the spear and go to his secondary weapon. 

[Mr.K.]

Before someone implements the aformentioned brace (couch) animation for pikes and long spears, they will likely stay as they are. Imo it would be great to have the ability for pikemen. You could defend tight spaces and corridors with just a few pikemen representing an actual pikewall formation. And against one pikeman you can still chamber the "couch". The angle or turn speed has to be limited of course not to make it too stong, but it already seems to me that the lance couch has a really slow turn speed, especially with the great lance, so I guess that would be possible.

[Teeth]

Why would that be a problem?  If a weapon doesn't have a role, it shouldn't be on the battlefield. 
I don't think the classes should be balanced.  If a spearman wants to fight up close, let him drop the spear and go to his secondary weapon. 

Why would you completely remove an extremely important aspect of melee combat historically because longspears can hit closer than they should? In a game where every polearm can hit closer than they should and any stab can hit at face hug reach. A longspear does have a role, it is a support weapon and if you think a longspear offers even remotely as much utility as a 2h up close, you are mad and clearly never tried a longspear yourself. Hitting up close is easily countered with downblock, deals crap damage and requires a lot of effort. Besides, it is extremely hard to fix. The pike can't do it, it can stab straight through objects and teammates instead, yay.

If this is a realism argument then I got a counter for you. The thing about long spears in real life is that they can keep opponents at bay, they are always solid objects able to push and stab. In Warband they are not solid objects and can only stab, something which can be defended against much easier against than in real life as well. As soon as you downblock there is nothing to stop you from facehugging the longspear user. The only reason people use facehug stabbing techniques is because closing in on them is unrealistically easy.

Before someone implements the aformentioned brace (couch) animation for pikes and long spears, they will likely stay as they are. Imo it would be great to have the ability for pikemen. You could defend tight spaces and corridors with just a few pikemen representing an actual pikewall formation. And against one pikeman you can still chamber the "couch". The angle or turn speed has to be limited of course not to make it too stong, but it already seems to me that the lance couch has a really slow turn speed, especially with the great lance, so I guess that would be possible.

I literally do not understand how you can see bracing as a useful thing in cRPG. People would just walk around you or shoot you in the face. Why would you willingly abandon all movement to become a wooden stake? For realistic pike use, you should be able to brace it while moving but I don't think the engine supports that kind of hit detection. Thank fuck MBG will.

[Mr.K.]

I literally do not understand how you can see bracing as a useful thing in cRPG. People would just walk around you or shoot you in the face. Why would you willingly abandon all movement to become a wooden stake? For realistic pike use, you should be able to brace it while moving but I don't think the engine supports that kind of hit detection. Thank fuck MBG will.

It could be useful in some situations like protecting a door on Siege or a small passage/bridge on Battle, with more than one pikeman of course. It shouldn't be the only option for the weapon of course, just an addition, same way as the lances have the option.

[Turkhammer]

Why would you completely remove an extremely important aspect of melee combat historically because longspears can hit closer than they should? In a game where every polearm can hit closer than they should and any stab can hit at face hug reach. A longspear does have a role, it is a support weapon and if you think a longspear offers even remotely as much utility as a 2h up close, you are mad and clearly never tried a longspear yourself. Hitting up close is easily countered with downblock, deals crap damage and requires a lot of effort. Besides, it is extremely hard to fix. The pike can't do it, it can stab straight through objects and teammates instead, yay.

If this is a realism argument then I got a counter for you. The thing about long spears in real life is that they can keep opponents at bay, they are always solid objects able to push and stab. In Warband they are not solid objects and can only stab, something which can be defended against much easier against than in real life as well. As soon as you downblock there is nothing to stop you from facehugging the longspear user. The only reason people use facehug stabbing techniques is because closing in on them is unrealistically easy.

Well the real problem is that the mod is not made for historicity.   It is made so each individual can be a Paladin. 

I play a hoplite build, so I am familiar with the limitation of the stab vs 2H. 
 
I see your point about not being able to keep people at bay with pikes.  They can never work as intended if people can just walk right past the tips, even if massed.
Does the engine allow for making pikes and spears solid objects?

Note, I never said that spears did not have a role.  I said that in their present form they are allowed to perform the role of short melee weapons in addition to their support role.

[Teeth]

As far as I know  the engine does not. Even if it does implementing solid spears would create a host of other problems that require a lot of dev attention. Wiggling your camera around with a solid pike, mowing everyone of a wall, lol. This engine has never done any justice to stab based weapons combat and I think we can only hope on new melee combat games for anything better. In that regard I would put my hopes on Melee Battlegrounds rather than Mount and Blade Bannerlord.

Note, I never said that spears did not have a role.  I said that in their present form they are allowed to perform the role of short melee weapons in addition to their support role.

Using that logic a 1h sword can perform a support role in addition to their short melee weapon role because they can support people with their long and accurate stab. Yes, they are crap at supporting compared to a longspear, but a longspear is much more crap at performing as a short melee weapon than a 1h sword. Ah well, the entire discussion is moot anyway as it is too tricky to fix even if desired. So as long as you don't assume a longspear is harmless up close and throw the occasional block in there you should be able to live with it.