Longspears and Pikes need a little love

[722_]

Pikes are quite strong still, I don't see a point in buffing them. As long as you have teammates around, it's really really effective. Combined with heavy armor and lots of IF makes me a tank and is prolly quite frustrating to enemies. Against cavalry, Awlpike has always been the best weapon imo. Enough reach to fight anything but a heavy/great lance and those you can outmaneuver with enough agi, or just block if you fail and that damage... Long Awlpike might actually be even better, but I don't have that one +3

Pike is a support weapon and works wonders in that context. 1 on 1 you're pretty much done, unless you're very experienced with the spinjumpstabbing kicking and blocking. Nudges are amazing though, with 30 strength I can throw people five meters back possibly giving me enough room to run to team mates

Edit: nerf->buff

Long awlpike is the perfect anti cav weapon, its long enough to outreach any cavalry weapon unless you mis-judge the attack. if you rear a horse it can do a good amount of damage to it while it is stationary, unlike the pike and longspear. its also very good support weapon for fighting infantry too. the regular awlpike is much better for 1v1 and close combat though and the better option for siege.

long awlpike is the weapon i use and since the thrust changes it glances more at max range which is a little disappointing. the whole point of the weapon for me is the reach. but it still works very well and it could just be my play style that needs to change after using it so much pre patch

[Kafein]

Polearms actually travel the shortest distance.

That really surprises me. Ever since the turn rate nerf, it feels like polearm stabs connect based on a point that emerges from the hands and goes towards the tip of the weapon as the animation progresses. Facehug stabs that before the change would just not connect, now they do. So there's definitely something happening. The point is that neither high or low range work reliably for 1h, whereas 2h can hit stabs at maximum range with no penalty whatsoever, and polearms can somehow facehug stab better than 1h do (that's my personal experience comparing playing awlpike and LEE mostly). I feel the previous sweetspot values were better balanced and much, much, much more fun.

The second (or perhaps third) part of my thrust change proposal that was passed late last year, was to increase the duration of the 1h and pole thrust's release animation by 100ms (.1 seconds). Two-Handed weapons have had a .7 duration for ages now, while the 1h and pole duration is about .6 seconds. This change would cause the weapons to hit about 5-10ms(before stats get applied)later in the animation, yet widen the duration of the sweetspot by about 20ms, while keeping everything else the same. Sweetspots wouldn't change and you still wouldn't see any hanging thrusts(all the frame data stays the same).

This hasn't been done since I wanted to see whether or not it would even be necessary. Perhaps it would be good for 1h since their weapon speeds are so much higher on average, but for poles, I can't help but blame the animation itself for nearly all the problems it has(from both a user and enemy perspective).

I think that current stabs should be a little bit slower before becoming active. Honestly facehug stabs are definitely too fast when they don't bounce, which is just a buff to armor. But stabs should also be a little bit easier to use once they become active, and not be restricted to such a small time and range window.

[Tydeus]

That really surprises me. Ever since the turn rate nerf, it feels like polearm stabs connect based on a point that emerges from the hands and goes towards the tip of the weapon as the animation progresses. Facehug stabs that before the change would just not connect, now they do. So there's definitely something happening. The point is that neither high or low range work reliably for 1h, whereas 2h can hit stabs at maximum range with no penalty whatsoever, and polearms can somehow facehug stab better than 1h do (that's my personal experience comparing playing awlpike and LEE mostly). I feel the previous sweetspot values were better balanced and much, much, much more fun.


I think that current stabs should be a little bit slower before becoming active. Honestly facehug stabs are definitely too fast when they don't bounce, which is just a buff to armor. But stabs should also be a little bit easier to use once they become active, and not be restricted to such a small time and range window.

The emboldened statement is how it works for all weapons all of the time. A collision "bar" gets extended from the right hand following the orientation of the weapon, with its length being decided by the weapon's 'length' stat. The thing with the polearm thrust, is that the first part of the animation, unlike 2h or 1h, has the weapon hardly moving at all. This causes people to think "he just hasn't released his thrust yet" when in fact, he released .1-.15 seconds ago. So it seems like it's an instant thrust, but it's actually not.

[korppis]

The emboldened statement is how it works for all weapons all of the time. A collision "bar" gets extended from the right hand following the orientation of the weapon, with its length being decided by the weapon's 'length' stat. The thing with the polearm thrust, is that the first part of the animation, unlike 2h or 1h, has the weapon hardly moving at all. This causes people to think "he just hasn't released his thrust yet" when in fact, he released .1-.15 seconds ago. So it seems like it's an instant thrust, but it's actually not.

I have much more trouble with instant 1h stabs. Or does it have something to do with how the weapon is held (1h starting up closer or something)?


But about the original topic: If only there was this 'overhead' stab... even if it would be just animation change and still down blockable. The point being that spears should be able to stab past/over friendlie's shoulders without having to lolstab every single time, that's especially not too easy atm. I'd imagine that would make long spears much better support weapon, and shield walls actually usable.

[Joseph Porta]

They are OK, i do fine with 5 ps. The reason wy no one plays pike is because its boring as fuck to play with, the damage is OK. LONG SPEAR, IMO, COULD USE A DAMAGE BUFF, PLEASE DONT BUFF THE SPEED THOUGH, IT IS a support weapon, theres no reason for it to be viable in 1v1, neither does that make sense for the pike.

The previous roflcopter long spear was a fucking joke, and you are a fucking joke if you deny it was retarded.

[Dalfador]

1 more damage on both wouldn't be that bad. Maybe 1-2 more speed along with it.

[Switchtense]

Remove the block-stun, or shorten it, and it would be perfect!

No damage or speed buff needed really.

[Gurnisson]

The reason wy no one plays pike is because its boring as fuck to play with,

Heresy! It's by far the most fun and challenging class in the game

[Joseph Porta]

Heresy! It's by far the most fun and challenging class in the game

Challenging certainly but it's the patience that I lack

[Jack1]

First off, I think of polearms in general as specialty weapons that all have a niche to fill. Becs for tight areas were you need to swing, English bills for long ranged combat with more than one direction, awlpikes for murdering horses, and pikes/longspears for long distance warfare along with "you must block down or get hit". In NA I believe polearms are much more viable being that in a 40v40 server there is always a group of 25 on each team that whomp sometime in the round. The way I am hearing it is that EU is mostly skirmishing people, and of course, pikes should not be viable, let alone any polearm, in any skirmishing situation.

An example of pikes being used effectively is on NA a few nights ago when there were about 7 or 8 ravens on. they had 3 pikers, 1 hoplite and the rest strength sheilders with things like heavy battle axes or military sickles.  If you were not blocking down you were getting stabbed, if you were blocking down you got mobbed by fast hard hitting shielders. The situation was helpless and if you got one kill on them you were lucky.

Pikes and longspears get used very well in NA, perhaps you just need to find the right teammates in the server or get your friends to play more cohesively in EU. Pikes, let alone long spears, should be left alone and be kept as-is in my opinion.

[Switchtense]

You barely see Long Spears or Pikes on EU in general.

As far as I have noticed, Yaroslav, Pikeman and I are the only ones using them regularly. Then a few people like Teeth, Kenda or one or two others I don't know the names of use it every now and then. (Sorry if I forgot someone)

I don't really mind since I hate fighting Pikes and Long Spears in a clusterfuck Those weapons don't need any buff at all, all it takes is gettting used to them.

Duelling with a Long Spear takes a lot of effort, with a Pike even more so. And I guess people want it the easy way so they just don't touch them.

[jtobiasm]

I've been using the pike for the past 2 days, first time I've ever levelled a melee alt up to 30. The only problem I have is that on eu1 there is 0 teamwork. Big clans like seljuks Mercs eques byz never seem to stick together. Even if there is a commander people don't listen or either bother following a battalion. If there was constant teamwork I think a lot more pikes would be used. I don't think a buff is needed, just more teamwork.

[Strudog]

You barely see Long Spears or Pikes on EU in general.

As far as I have noticed, Yaroslav, Pikeman and I are the only ones using them regularly. Then a few people like Teeth, Kenda or one or two others I don't know the names of use it every now and then. (Sorry if I forgot someone)

I don't really mind since I hate fighting Pikes and Long Spears in a clusterfuck Those weapons don't need any buff at all, all it takes is gettting used to them.

Duelling with a Long Spear takes a lot of effort, with a Pike even more so. And I guess people want it the easy way so they just don't touch them.

I dont think expressed myself properly in the OP, my issue is, that the Pike and Longspear have become somewhat a novelty item, there are much better weapons that do the same job and more.

Take for example the awlpike, does more dmg, better for killing cav, better in melee combat, in ganking situation i would rather have an awlpike.

Another example the Poleaxe.


And i think you get the idea....

There is niche in which the Pike or Longspear fill, it has no individuality, what i would like to see is that the pike can 1 shot horses riding into it  at full speed and so on, something to make it individual and give people a reason to take it.

[Mr.K.]

I've been using the pike for the past 2 days, first time I've ever levelled a melee alt up to 30. The only problem I have is that on eu1 there is 0 teamwork. Big clans like seljuks Mercs eques byz never seem to stick together. Even if there is a commander people don't listen or either bother following a battalion. If there was constant teamwork I think a lot more pikes would be used. I don't think a buff is needed, just more teamwork.

I fully agree. I've played this gen as a pikeman with one of my pole alts and whenever you get a decent teamwork and you can hide behind your two-handers and shielders, you can easily wreck the whole enemy team with well timed pokes. When the enemies get frustrated, they rage charge you through the lines and after you block them a few times, friends can kill them easily. If every team would have 3-4 pikemen people would quickly notice how valuable they are, but even now it's perfectly viable and imo a lot of fun as long as you try to stick with the main group.

There is niche in which the Pike or Longspear fill, it has no individuality, what i would like to see is that the pike can 1 shot horses riding into it  at full speed and so on, something to make it individual and give people a reason to take it.

Imo the bracing animation could be this individual addition. May not be useful most of the time, but it would be something special.

[Switchtense]

I dont think expressed myself properly in the OP, my issue is, that the Pike and Longspear have become somewhat a novelty item, there are much better weapons that do the same job and more.

Take for example the awlpike, does more dmg, better for killing cav, better in melee combat, in ganking situation i would rather have an awlpike.

Another example the Poleaxe.


And i think you get the idea....

There is niche in which the Pike or Longspear fill, it has no individuality, what i would like to see is that the pike can 1 shot horses riding into it  at full speed and so on, something to make it individual and give people a reason to take it.

Well, there are better anti cav weapons, yes. But the length of the Pike and Long Spear make it perfectly viable as an infantry support weapon.
Stand behind your teammates and poke the enemies. You basically cannot get hit if you do it properly.
Also the length makes it really great against cavalry. If a rider charges you from behind and you turn around he obviously tries to dodge you, but with your reach you can still rear him easily if hes using a heavy horse that is not very manoeuvrable. Once he is reared all teammates and their mothers will crawl out of their holes and start ganking him.

I also have often managed to insta kill a rider or his horse using a MW Long Spear with 7 Power Strike. Guess they have not been full health but still.
A damage or speed buff would make everybody use it again which would be too much.

I think it is the way it should be - Either you love it, or you hate it