cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:05:19 pm

Title: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:05:19 pm: What do you guys think about the new rearing mechanics? Basically any polearm with a pierce thrust/stab can rear a horse. Supposedly you need to land a decent hit on it (glancing won't rear them). I like that glancing won't rear, but I think now that anything with pierce stab can rear, it's going to make cavalry quite a bit more challenging. Especially in strategus when it was already pretty brutal to try and charge through enemy infantry ranks (when they are clashing with your infantry, so you can bump them down for your teammates).

I think that lowering the polearm length to 130 would have been better than 120 (from 141), which is every polearm with a pierce stab.

Lowering to 130 would have allowed these weapons to rear horses now (poleaxe could already rear at 141):

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And these would not be able to rear (the only polearms with pierce stab/thrust that couldn't):

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But now all the above two image weapons can rear horses.

I think that's too much.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: The_Pony_Spencki_and_Dana on February 17, 2014, 06:06:15 pm: +1 for your picture :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:11:20 pm: I think 135+ would have been a good start too (before going down to 130 length). If they made it 135+ length could rear (instead of what it used to be, 141) that would still allow 3 more weapons to rear. (Spear, Military Fork, and Long Bardiche)

Basically I think going from 141+ lengths to 120+ (all polearms with a pierce stab) was too drastic.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Utrakil on February 17, 2014, 06:13:39 pm: I wonder if all the 2h in polemode can rear horses now?

I always liked the idea to have to decide wheter you go for a anticav or a meleepole.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on February 17, 2014, 06:36:25 pm: Short spear can rear from what i have seen, though may be different on non dtv
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 06:37:29 pm: It's 100+ length now. Any half swords rear horses as well.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Tzar on February 17, 2014, 06:38:41 pm: Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:05:19 pm
What do you guys think about the new rearing mechanics?

Gheey.....
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Ikarus on February 17, 2014, 06:47:54 pm: Quote
glancing won't rear them
glancing can also rear horses from time to time

Yeh great, as if lance cav isn´t already close to extinction, all hail 1h cav -.-
how about reducing the frigging range of 1hcav? They still have an attack range of about 300° on their horses (they can´t attack people who are standing at the very front of the horse)

I´d be cool with that, but people will still keep bitching about cav. They just don´t know how hard and expensive this stuff is x[
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:55:19 pm: Quote from: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 06:37:29 pm
It's 100+ length now. Any half swords rear horses as well.

Haha wow...that's ridiculous.

So weapons that are as long as my Knightly Arming Sword can rear horses if they have polearm mode. Lame.

I think 130/131 or 135 would have been a better place to start. Going from 141+ length rearing horses, to anything over 100 with polearm mode that has pierce thrust/stab, is way too drastic.

Let me repeat in another way...weapons that are as long as my 1h sword can rear horses. :lol:
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 07:20:40 pm: Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:55:19 pm
Haha wow...that's ridiculous.

So weapons that are as long as my Knightly Arming Sword can rear horses if they have polearm mode. Lame.

I think 130/131 or 135 would have been a better place to start. Going from 141+ length rearing horses, to anything over 100 with polearm mode that has pierce thrust/stab, is way too drastic.

Let me repeat in another way...weapons that are as long as my 1h sword can rear horses. :lol:

IMO it was for the better being that as lancer cav I can make any I the new rearing weapons have zero chance. If your a good enough lancer the change should have no effect while the bad cavs will start having trouble. I also like how it is a mega nerf to bump cav who go after infantry.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Sanxus on February 17, 2014, 07:25:54 pm: Today playing on EU1, I be like: "Great Sword stopped me?" Maybe it is a way out in some way to balance, but the problem with "OP cav" is that many players don't look around. But when they do, u fckd, cuz damn bastard sword (101 reach) can rear...

But, if the yolo stab would be in some way nerfed, then why not, but the problem still is the swagy thrust that u can turn 180 degree and rear, especialy on strat battles it's fckd up.

// Who da faa... edited my post in this way? And why? Stupid badmins...
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 07:36:59 pm: I still think it's a pretty drastic change, now half swords can rear horses, as well as bec de corbins. Something else to look out for on the battlefield, and inches me that much closer to making all rearing polearms neon hot pink (since devs apparently don't care).

/disclaimer, I'll never be that lame as to color rearing weapons neon hot pink...
//they'd totally be neon green. :wink:

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Can you imagine strat battles now jack? Were you ever the type of cav to recklessly charge into the enemy infantry's main formation when they clashed with your friendly infantry? I swear it was always 50/50 whether I'd get reared or not (that might even be lying to myself, it might have been worse chances to get reared). Now with weapons like a bec or great sword (or longsword) in the mix, it's going to be impossible to be tactical about it, just going to have to close your eyes and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 10:45:07 pm: If you get reared by a shortened spear or an estoc in polearm mode you honestly deserve to be reared.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 10:51:24 pm: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 10:45:07 pm
If you get reared by a shortened spear or an estoc in polearm mode you honestly deserve to be reared.

When I'm riding through a group of 30 infantry in strategus, I deserve to get reared because one of the guys has an estoc or bec de corbin?

I agree if you're on the open plains and 1 v 1 against a bec...I'm referring to attacking groups of infantry. Or if I go to assist my friendly infantry and someone has a bec it's going to affect me. I don't think that means I'm bad cav or should have seen it coming. I just think that it is going to cause a lot more horses to get reared that otherwise wouldn't, and force cavalry to be even more gimicky and badstabbing (rather than trying to assist friendly infantry).

I just think that it is a pretty drastic change to go from 141+ length polearms rearing horses, to anything 100+ length that can be used in polearm mode with pierce stab.

*NINJA EDIT FOR SANDY*

Read my post here, I agree if you're 1v1 against a short spear or bec, you should outreach them anyways.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on February 17, 2014, 10:52:16 pm: I'm usually playing lancer cav, and while annoying, this change didn't really seem to affect much unless you're riding an ungodly heavy charger or something. If you are riding full speed down a bec or spear user's throat, you'll probably lose all your horse's HP anyway due to the gnarly speed bonus.

With the superior reach a lancer has, you should usually be able to outrange becs and other very short polearms anyway.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 11:03:11 pm: Don't forget that all poles got an effective reach reduction with the latest patch and it takes longer for a stab to deal damage because of new sweetspots. AND you can't be reared with low damage/glance stabs. Overall cav definately benefited from the last patch

Besides that, if someone gets the timing down to rear with a bec then he deserves the rear imo. He would be better off jumping to the side and swinging because the length is so short with a stab and he risks getting knocked down

It makes the underutilised poles more of a viable option now. Before every spear under 141 was overshadowed by the War Spear and Ashwood Pike. They might still be but at least they don't have that big negative element
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 11:07:06 pm: Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 10:51:24 pm
When I'm riding through a group of 30 infantry in strategus

Just like in the movies, right?
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 11:11:58 pm: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 11:07:06 pm
Just like in the movies, right?

:lol: No like in real life! :mrgreen:

a half ton horse is going to have no problems knocking someone down or aside. The best war horses blindly charged into whatever they were headed towards.

They already made the charge values pretty low (my courser gets "reared" if I try to run over 2 people who are standing next to each other, they have to be at least 5-10 feet apart for me to run over both of them and keep moving). Even the heavy armored horses will get reared if they run over more than a few people in close succession.

I don't want to bring up realism into the argument, because there's so much wrong to be "fixed". Being able to brace any sort of spear into the ground would be important. But a dead horses' corpse flying through the air should also crush people underneath it (knocking you out, breaking bones, even killing you from the concussion or hoof going through your head/chest). The people that my horse charges through in real life would most likely be out of the fight, they wouldn't be getting back up and fighting.

________

I just think that people should have to bring a weapon that is more utilized for rearing horses rather than bringing a bec to battle and being able to fight against anyone, and then still having the ability to rear horses.

But since becs are underutilized maybe more people will bring it.

I'm not worried about NA1 or EU1, I'm more referring to strat battles. There was already a need for dedicated pikemen or longspearmen, I just think that there will be less of a need for them now. You can't really be "graceful" about a full cavalry charge through enemy infantry lines when you're in a strategus battle. You already had to cross your fingers and try your best to pick a line that didn't have polearm rearing weapons in the way. Now you might as well close your eyes on top of it, because I'm not going to be able to pick out an estoc or bec de corbin in the middle of a group of infantry.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 11:17:11 pm: Your horse would be an animal that doesn't have a psychic connection to you, following your every command without thought. He would be hard to control, randomly rear, not follow orders, be scared shitless and basically just want to run away anywhere. You wouldn't turn so fast, you would damage the horse by piling into 30 guys, horses would be easier to hear in real life, the horse would be screwed from 1 little hit in it's foot, falling off the horse might knock you out and the horse would not protect you from damage when you're on the ground. Slamming into a tree would screw up the horse, you would slide around as the terrain would get muddy so you'd have to be careful etc

And other realism bs that doesn't really translate into good gameplay
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 11:25:38 pm: Your horse could strafe (walk side-ways) it could move backwards much faster. War horses were trained not to be scared shitless, not to be hard to control, and not to randomly rear. They were trained to bite and to kick. Yes it is true that if they were injured in battle (from an arrow or any weapon hitting it, not just "long spears"), they could very easily lose control of the rider and do whatever they wanted. There's plenty of accounts I've read about a horse getting hit with an arrow and then running through the whole friendly infantry lines, causing death and destruction amongst friendly troops.

A single horse running around a battlefield in real life would be easier to hear than what we have in game? With dozens of sweating and grunting men moving around in metal armor around your immediate vicinity?

Like I said, I'm not the one who brought up realism, it's retarded to argue about realism when so much is unrealistic about cavalry (both pro's and con's). You bring up points that are true, and I bring up points that are true. I don't see what that has to do with the discussion about lowering polearm's rearing from 141+ length, to 100+ length of anything with polearm mode that has pierce stab.

I doubt we'll see much an effect in NA1 or EU1, but I think it will have a pretty big impact in strat battles. It was already very hard to do a cavalry charge in strategus, I think this will likely make it impossible for me to ever make it through a cavalry charge alive (which was already pretty damn hard to do).
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 11:47:06 pm: Poles got new sweetspots that restrict their length and how quickly you can deal damage. They don't rear with low damage/glance hits. That is more important that shortass poles rearing imo
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 11:51:46 pm: Because a cavalry charge should be more than a handful of cav looking to score easy couches and knockdowns just as your infantry clashes with their infantry.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 11:55:56 pm: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 11:51:46 pm
Because a cavalry charge should be more than a handful of cav looking to score easy couches and knockdowns just as your infantry clashes with their infantry.

Having more than 5 or so at a time trying to do a cavalry charge is terrible in Warband, it's too easy to have someone slow down when they run into someone on the ground, and then your horses run into each other and come to a full stop.

I wish there was a way to have a better organized cavalry charge, then I'd totally agree with you. In strat battles, having 5 people trying to charge at the same time counts as a huge cavalry charge.

I still don't see you addressing what I"m saying. It was already brutal for a group of cavalry to charge enemy infantry in strat, most of them are going to be reared by the dedicated pikemen (even if you try to snake your way in...which you can't do when there's more than a few of your own cavalry). I think now it would take a miracle for cavalry to make it through.

But I'm not even taking into account how expensive heavy horses are in strategus...so this is probably a moot point anyways (since a rouncey stands no chance of running over more than 1 person without coming to a complete stop...let alone having to worry about an estoc or bec rearing it).
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 18, 2014, 12:20:28 am: Perhaps the solution is don't charge a group of 30 infantry unless you have comparable numbers.

I know a single infantry wouldn't charge a group of 30 cav, or 30 ranged, or 30 infantry. So why should the use of a horse suddenly validate a suicidal action?

Even 5 cav is nothing. Try a group of 20 or 25 cav to see the results that would be expected.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Inglorious on February 18, 2014, 12:42:46 am: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 18, 2014, 12:20:28 am

I know a single infantry wouldn't charge a group of 30 cav. So why should the use of a horse suddenly validate a suicidal action?

Bonsai would
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 18, 2014, 12:44:23 am: Quote from: IngloriouslyBad on February 18, 2014, 12:42:46 am
Bonsai would

Get a shield lol
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on February 18, 2014, 12:47:34 am: I can see some validity to Huseby's point about cavalry performing less effectively in strategus, especially with the massively increased cost of horseflesh. Still, the removal of glance-rearing is very good for cav at the same time. You're not likely to have a pikeman that sees cavalry about to enter his asshole, turn 180 degrees and glance his 300 length weapon into the horse for a rear all in .5 seconds.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Smoothrich on February 18, 2014, 12:52:09 am: Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on February 18, 2014, 12:47:34 am
You're not likely to have a pikeman that sees cavalry about to enter his asshole, turn 180 degrees and glance his 300 length weapon into the horse for a rear all in .5 seconds.

An excellent description of cavalry vs. pike gameplay in the Warband cRPG Engine. Considering that's core to the game I doubt it will ever go away.

Also for any "realism" talk going on here, you know a large draft/war horse could weigh nearly the same as a small car, nearing 2000 pounds. They will snap the fuck out of any spear or pike (and the pikeman's arms surely) unless they are braced in the ground before impact, and that horse body is going dozens of people deep into a formation, dead or alive. This was actually reported as happening in a Napoleonic war battle, where a skewered horse collapsed one of those nerdy pike-squares and let the rest of the cav own everyone.

Also if armor in this game was modeled at all as far as angles and penetration is considered, a spear-tip is very, very likely to glance off a full speed horse with an armored breastplate, unless you hit them at a perfect angle. This and blocking arrows is the entire point of armor after all. Which this game doesn't reflect at all. Now if cRPG/Warband could actually let players use skill by dodging their horse to force glances on otherwise lethal spear thrusts, that would add a lot of skill to the game, but oh well.

Thoughts on balance: lol who cares, good cav are gonna fucking own you whether you halfsword that HBS or not.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: San on February 18, 2014, 05:40:13 am: Quote from: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 11:47:06 pm
Poles got new sweetspots that restrict their length and how quickly you can deal damage. They don't rear with low damage/glance hits. That is more important that shortass poles rearing imo

This. I was unaware of this change until it was implemented, but from the looks of it, cav have a few more tricks against the longer, weaker polearms.

I think you should give it a week to sink in. This does make mindless charging a bit tougher from the looks of it, but rewards expert control of your horse.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: imisshotmail on February 18, 2014, 06:33:38 am: I didn't really read this thread but just so everyone knows, this is how it was originally in cRPG until a warband patch (not c-RPG) changed how rearing works. And literally nothing changed with it because if you got reared by such short polearms you were going to die easily to anything anyway, and nothing is going to change from bringing it back.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 19, 2014, 03:26:12 pm: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 18, 2014, 12:20:28 am
Perhaps the solution is don't charge a group of 30 infantry unless you have comparable numbers.

I know a single infantry wouldn't charge a group of 30 cav, or 30 ranged, or 30 infantry. So why should the use of a horse suddenly validate a suicidal action?

Even 5 cav is nothing. Try a group of 20 or 25 cav to see the results that would be expected.

Because cavalry never had to have equal numbers as infantry to inflict damage in a cavalry charge. The idea is to soften up the enemy infantry for your own infantry. A horse weighs at least 5 times as much as a person. Why would you ever need to have 1 horse to invalidate 1 person (who doesn't have a pike type weapon braced into the ground...which we can't do in crpg, so a polearm that was 141+ length with pierce stab substituted for that).

You're beyond ridiculous here.

That being said I think I would give the trade off that no glances/weak damage rears a horse if every polearm can rear horses. I think the hardest part about cavalry charges in strat now (how cav should be used, not running around trying to boost your KD away from the main action), is the light horses are going to be the only affordable ones for a long time. By the time we even get to using armored horses then we can worry about whether or not "pocket pikes" (short spears and HBS in halfsword mode) are extremely detrimental to cavalry or not.

"imisshotmail" ( :rolleyes: ) you're thinking about this in NA1 where you try to engage people 1v1 and imagining someone bad getting reared by a HBS or short spear. I'm talking about strat battles where it will be impossible to ever know if that person 3 deep has a HBS in half sword mode, ready to rear your horse or not.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 19, 2014, 04:02:46 pm: Realism vs game balance aside I think this entire matter is silly considering we actually HAD pocket pikes (I did too!), and ~~shortened spears and such could ACTUALLY rear horses back in the day. It was a warband patch which for whatever stupid reason made them unable to rear.~~ This has already been stated multiple times in this thread, but I guess it's not a valid point or anything.

And cav is fine. Just go morningstar with an armored horse and you can easily get 150 points in a map. The funny thing about that, though, is that you can rack up 20 kills by sticking to the same vulture playstyle of "ride up into a packed melee on battle and bump-SMASH somebody for 95% of their health" that has defined cRPG cav for years now.

I think the bigger issue is this sense of cavalric superiority. Were cavalry superior in real life? Yes, yes they were... right up until things called tanks showed up. Is cavalry able to be properly modeled and balanced in a game where you can block a flamberge with a sickle (or even static block an attack)? No, probably not. So if you are concerned with your strat performance, please abandon the notion that you are somehow entitled to charge into a group of 30 other nerds playing internet swords and horsies and actually make it out alive.

It's worth noting that cav is the only playstyle that allows you to score kills by exclusively pressing one button (w), and sometimes pressing two others (x) (left click)
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 19, 2014, 04:21:39 pm: No that's what I'm saying. We're agreeing in some situations and you're misreading others. I agree that this won't affect battle servers in crpg. For strat I'm not saying I'm concerned with my strat performance. If I was, then I never would have rode into the main line of the enemy infantry right before/as they crash into our friendly infantry line. I'm doing that to help our infantry, it is suicidal and generally resulted in my horse getting reared (even when trying to be careful, because infantry got good at having pikes protect them). Having someone use a bec de corbin to do well against ground troops and then be able to just stab and rear any horse that happens to try and bum rush the infantry line, will completely change the ability for cavalry to charge infantry lines in strategus. This is now relegating cavalry to do in strat battles, what they already do in crpg public server battles, picking off stragglers and outliers, and not actually using cavalry for what they are supposed to be used for (disrupting enemy infantry formations). But again, we're talking at least months from now before any armies have armored horses in strat, so I guess it's a moot point.

This won't change anything in crpg public battle servers, cavalry was already playing the backstabbing/light cavalry/low risk high reward tactics.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Gurnisson on February 19, 2014, 05:38:29 pm: Quote from: Rhaelys on February 19, 2014, 04:02:46 pm
It's worth noting that cav is the only playstyle that allows you to score kills by exclusively pressing one button (w), and sometimes pressing two others (x) (left click)

You were a glaiver before, right? Only need s and left click for that... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: imisshotmail on February 19, 2014, 06:08:37 pm: Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 19, 2014, 04:21:39 pm

It honestly won't change anything in strat either dude, the only time you should charge into an enemy line is when they are all distracted in melee. Already in last strategus, half the melee were hoplites or long spears and you could STILL charge through an entire line of them when they were engaged in melee because people cannot block infront of them and look behind/to the side at the same time. I honestly don't see why a guy having a bec de corbin in a group is supposed to be any different than everyone being hoplites and long spears, if you didn't get reared when people had those why would you by an even shorter weapon?

I personally love that the change is back in because while I don't think it effects much of anything really, the fact that it is possible for VERY bad cavalry players to get punished by people with shorter weapons- is only a good thing in my opinion.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 19, 2014, 07:53:47 pm: Quote from: Gurnisson on February 19, 2014, 05:38:29 pm
You were a glaiver before, right? Only need s and left click for that... :rolleyes:

Yep and will be soon again. But that requires holding s key and left clicking. Cav get kills by holding w. Or holding w and pressing x. Or holding w, bump-left click.

@Huseby

You're right in saying that we're many months out before we see any battles in which cavalry will play a prominent role. So let's wait until then to see if suicidal cav charges become completely unfeasible. My feeling is that even if they are unfeasible, cav will still shine at picking off stragglers and unprotected ranged.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: MURDERTRON on February 20, 2014, 03:29:43 pm: Since ranged stun is gone, you should probably give them horse rearing too, just to balance things out. And when we rediscover that 1h stab is too strong in strat, just nerf their stab in exchange for horse rearing. And then, and only then, will we start talking about what's left that doesn't rear horses.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Latvian on February 20, 2014, 04:15:12 pm: when i was riding my plated charger and got reared by shortened spear agility troll i immediately quit game and will try it again only today.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: dreadnok on February 21, 2014, 04:32:03 pm: It really should be based on weight and reach,
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 21, 2014, 10:45:21 pm: Slightly off topic, but id rather not create another thread for it since it relates to cav anyways.

Buffs ability for players to move, players now move faster side to side, resulting in the inability of lance cav to strike agility characters. Result: Lance cav nerfed

Allows nearly every polearm in the game as well as 2h the ability to rear horses, now with the benefit of increased character agility, lance cavalry have a tough time hitting even lone enemies in what should technically be a easy kill for the cav and pushes 1h cav to not even bother trying. Result: cav nerfed

Buffs the stab of every weapon in the game, making light cavalry fear 1h weapons longer then 90 reach, now coupled with increased agility, every 1h player will jump out of the way and demolish your horse in a single click due to the speed bonus. Result: yet again an indirect cav nerf

There is an obvious reason why nobody dares to ride light horses in battle servers, because a single hit will bring the horse to the brink of death or just outright kill it, why even bother wasting your time and money on them. Now the game changes to who brings more armor, and hurts all the little guys. Now using this same statement in strat, i cant but help think all the cav are going to be near useless for the initial burst of strat until people bring heavy horses, which shouldnt be the case. Cav should be a force multiplier, not an extra utility to kill random stragglers.

Please for the love of fuck give back some of the lance angles. Atleast drag them out beyond the like 90 degrees or whatever it is, make it like 150. Atleast we will be able to kill archers and 1hers then instead of dealing with this, because really this is what fighting people from horseback has become if they are aware of you:

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Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: San on February 21, 2014, 11:19:52 pm: Light cav are good when loomed. Cav not getting reared on glances sounds like a buff to me. Stab sweetspots were shortened, so it's far easier to force a glance on your horse. They also survive more projectiles nowadays. Agility characters are easy to hit if you predict their path and allow them only a few ways to reach you. Just gotta be a better cav player than the infantry is infantry for the most part, no free lunch.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: HoboJoe on February 21, 2014, 11:42:13 pm: Cavalry can choose when to attack infantry, not the other way around. On a horse I go for the backstabs, simply because it's more effective and way less risky than attacking someone who's aware of me. Why take the risk when there's easier targets available, I've got the choice.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Canary on February 22, 2014, 12:31:53 am: Two things to point out:

The first is that the change from any polearm ever rearing horses (in the old days) to only ones 141 or longer wasn't a cRPG specific change and therefore balance within the mod was never supposed to revolve around that change.

Second, one of the intentions behind putting halfswording into the mod was so that 2hand players would have a way to deal with horses similar to how polearm players could.

edit: People probably covered this already, but it is a challenge trying to get through threads like this in one go with the tangential bickering that goes on.

A passing thought: If someone using an item and playstyle that literally allows them to kill people by pressing W, what people consider ridiculous is that someone who is using a short weapon with good timing can stop the first person from moving with a solid attack?
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: imisshotmail on February 22, 2014, 12:44:26 am: Quote from: AntiBlitz on February 21, 2014, 10:45:21 pm

People use armoured horses because upkeep is irrelevant and they are straight up better than the lighter ones. This doesn't mean the unarmoured ones are bad, far from it. I really do not see why people think cavalry should be better than infantry in strategus just because they are cavalry? cavalry should just be another class, like melee and ranged so if you are an average player (you are) you should be aiming for 1:1 kdr as cav. Good players can do much better on rounceys than that, so don't complain.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Kafein on February 22, 2014, 12:46:06 am: Stay classy Canary. Complaining about the bickering then going on saying that cav is nothing more than holding w.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 22, 2014, 12:50:44 am: Quote from: imisshotmail on February 22, 2014, 12:44:26 am
People use armoured horses because upkeep is irrelevant and they are straight up better than the lighter ones. This doesn't mean the unarmoured ones are bad, far from it. I really do not see why people think cavalry should be better than infantry in strategus just because they are cavalry? cavalry should just be another class, like melee and ranged so if you are an average player (you are) you should be aiming for 1:1 kdr as cav. Good players can do much better on rounceys than that, so don't complain.

i missed everything you had to say because all your points you make have to be about "good" players vs "bad" players, which is an irrelevant statement and shouldnt even be brought up.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: imisshotmail on February 22, 2014, 12:51:50 am: Quote from: AntiBlitz on February 22, 2014, 12:50:44 am
i missed everything you had to say because all your points you make have to be about "good" players vs "bad" players, which is an irrelevant statement and shouldnt even be brought up.

Typical reply of a bad.

B-b-b-ut please cavalry is hard!

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Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Canary on February 22, 2014, 12:52:09 am: Quote from: Kafein on February 22, 2014, 12:46:06 am
Stay classy Canary. Complaining about the bickering then going on saying that cav is nothing more than holding w.

I went and read the rest of the thread before editing that in, at least. Also, you're addressing what I said with the wrong implication.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Rhaelys on February 22, 2014, 12:57:17 am: Just seems like there are three groups of thought here:

1) Non-cavalry players
2) Not-shit-cavalry
3)
Quote from: Canary on February 22, 2014, 12:31:53 am
someone using an item and playstyle that literally allows them to kill people by pressing W
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 22, 2014, 01:16:08 am: welp typical thread, baddies in full plate telling everyone how easy it is, everyone else stating it either needs nerfed or is fine. typical thread, cav will forever be in the past. idk what logic tells you that the cav which was balanced in like 2011 still jives well with the balance of 2014.

Huseby, nothing will ever come of these threads involving cav. Now if we were talking about archery, well fuck that changes everything.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Ronin on February 22, 2014, 02:18:55 am: Let's give it a try for some time. We haven't had any decent strat battles yet and we are not likely to have those with cavalry at all, at least for this month.

Shorter weapons are probably similar to very long weapons with their timing difficultiness. It should be a bit easier to cause them to glance. Maybe the rearing length could be changed to 131+ or something but it is still too early to speak. All you discuss here sounds like theory and imaginary. This behaviour is very common in forum so I felt like reminding it: experiment, play and do trainings first; then have an opinion on it.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Kaoklai on February 22, 2014, 04:31:01 am: Quote from: AntiBlitz on February 22, 2014, 01:16:08 am
welp typical thread, baddies in full plate telling everyone how easy it is, everyone else stating it either needs nerfed or is fine.

Saracen Guard Armor is not full plate. And even if you were wearing full plate you wouldn't come close to touching a 6:1 kdr.

Stay bad.

ACAB
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: MountedRhader on February 22, 2014, 08:01:14 am: 100+ length to rear...that does seem a bit much

I have a polearm infantry/cavalry right now and it's much easier to play polearm than any other class, why buff Polearms even more? :|
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: Tydeus on February 22, 2014, 01:55:24 pm: Quote from: TheTeutonicPaladin on February 22, 2014, 08:01:14 am
why buff Polearms even more? :|
Err... They did just lose a .5 second mobility stun from every singly hit.
Title: Re: Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)
Post by: spiritus on April 09, 2014, 11:42:00 pm: Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 06:11:20 pm
I think 135+ would have been a good start too (before going down to 130 length). If they made it 135+ length could rear (instead of what it used to be, 141) that would still allow 3 more weapons to rear. (Spear, Military Fork, and Long Bardiche)

Basically I think going from 141+ lengths to 120+ (all polearms with a pierce stab) was too drastic.
I agree, bec is a little to short etc.