Any polearm with pierce thurst can rear now (discussion)

[Grumbs]

Don't forget that all poles got an effective reach reduction with the latest patch and it takes longer for a stab to deal damage because of new sweetspots. AND you can't be reared with low damage/glance stabs. Overall cav definately benefited from the last patch

Besides that, if someone gets the timing down to rear with a bec then he deserves the rear imo. He would be better off jumping to the side and swinging because the length is so short with a stab and he risks getting knocked down

It makes the underutilised poles more of a viable option now. Before every spear under 141 was overshadowed by the War Spear and Ashwood Pike. They might still be but at least they don't have that big negative element

[Rhaelys]

When I'm riding through a group of 30 infantry in strategus

Just like in the movies, right?

[CrazyCracka420]

Just like in the movies, right?

   No like in real life! 

a half ton horse is going to have no problems knocking someone down or aside.  The best war horses blindly charged into whatever they were headed towards. 

They already made the charge values pretty low (my courser gets "reared" if I try to run over 2 people who are standing next to each other, they have to be at least 5-10 feet apart for me to run over both of them and keep moving).  Even the heavy armored horses will get reared if they run over more than a few people in close succession. 

I don't want to bring up realism into the argument, because there's so much wrong to be "fixed".  Being able to brace any sort of spear into the ground would be important.  But a dead horses' corpse flying through the air should also crush people underneath it (knocking you out, breaking bones, even killing you from the concussion or hoof going through your head/chest).  The people that my horse charges through in real life would most likely be out of the fight, they wouldn't be getting back up and fighting. 

________

I just think that people should have to bring a weapon that is more utilized for rearing horses rather than bringing a bec to battle and being able to fight against anyone, and then still having the ability to rear horses. 

But since becs are underutilized maybe more people will bring it.

I'm not worried about NA1 or EU1, I'm more referring to strat battles.  There was already a need for dedicated pikemen or longspearmen, I just think that there will be less of a need for them now.  You can't really be "graceful" about a full cavalry charge through enemy infantry lines when you're in a strategus battle.  You already had to cross your fingers and try your best to pick a line that didn't have polearm rearing weapons in the way.  Now you might as well close your eyes on top of it, because I'm not going to be able to pick out an estoc or bec de corbin in the middle of a group of infantry. 

[Grumbs]

Your horse would be an animal that doesn't have a psychic connection to you, following your every command without thought. He would be hard to control, randomly rear, not follow orders, be scared shitless and basically just want to run away anywhere. You wouldn't turn so fast, you would damage the horse by piling into 30 guys, horses would be easier to hear in real life, the horse would be screwed from 1 little hit in it's foot, falling off the horse might knock you out and the horse would not protect you from damage when you're on the ground. Slamming into a tree would screw up the horse, you would slide around as the terrain would get muddy so you'd have to be careful etc

And other realism bs that doesn't really translate into good gameplay

[CrazyCracka420]

Your horse could strafe (walk side-ways) it could move backwards much faster.  War horses were trained not to be scared shitless, not to be hard to control, and not to randomly rear.  They were trained to bite and to kick.  Yes it is true that if they were injured in battle (from an arrow or any weapon hitting it, not just "long spears"), they could very easily lose control of the rider and do whatever they wanted.  There's plenty of accounts I've read about a horse getting hit with an arrow and then running through the whole friendly infantry lines, causing death and destruction amongst friendly troops. 

A single horse running around a battlefield in real life would be easier to hear than what we have in game?  With dozens of sweating and grunting men moving around in metal armor around your immediate vicinity?

Like I said, I'm not the one who brought up realism, it's retarded to argue about realism when so much is unrealistic about cavalry (both pro's and con's).  You bring up points that are true, and I bring up points that are true.  I don't see what that has to do with the discussion about lowering polearm's rearing from 141+ length, to 100+ length of anything with polearm mode that has pierce stab.

I doubt we'll see much an effect in NA1 or EU1, but I think it will have a pretty big impact in strat battles.  It was already very hard to do a cavalry charge in strategus, I think this will likely make it impossible for me to ever make it through a cavalry charge alive (which was already pretty damn hard to do). 

[Grumbs]

Poles got new sweetspots that restrict their length and how quickly you can deal damage. They don't rear with low damage/glance hits. That is more important that shortass poles rearing imo

[Rhaelys]

Because a cavalry charge should be more than a handful of cav looking to score easy couches and knockdowns just as your infantry clashes with their infantry.

[CrazyCracka420]

Because a cavalry charge should be more than a handful of cav looking to score easy couches and knockdowns just as your infantry clashes with their infantry.

Having more than 5 or so at a time trying to do a cavalry charge is terrible in Warband, it's too easy to have someone slow down when they run into someone on the ground, and then your horses run into each other and come to a full stop.

I wish there was a way to have a better organized cavalry charge, then I'd totally agree with you.  In strat battles, having 5 people trying to charge at the same time counts as a huge cavalry charge. 

I still don't see you addressing what I"m saying.  It was already brutal for a group of cavalry to charge enemy infantry in strat, most of them are going to be reared by the dedicated pikemen (even if you try to snake your way in...which you can't do when there's more than a few of your own cavalry).  I think now it would take a miracle for cavalry to make it through.

But I'm not even taking into account how expensive heavy horses are in strategus...so this is probably a moot point anyways (since a rouncey stands no chance of running over more than 1 person without coming to a complete stop...let alone having to worry about an estoc or bec rearing it). 

[Rhaelys]

Perhaps the solution is don't charge a group of 30 infantry unless you have comparable numbers.

I know a single infantry wouldn't charge a group of 30 cav, or 30 ranged, or 30 infantry. So why should the use of a horse suddenly validate a suicidal action?

Even 5 cav is nothing. Try a group of 20 or 25 cav to see the results that would be expected.

[Inglorious]

I know a single infantry wouldn't charge a group of 30 cav. So why should the use of a horse suddenly validate a suicidal action?

Bonsai would

[Rhaelys]

Bonsai would

Get a shield lol

[Sandersson Jankins]

I can see some validity to Huseby's point about cavalry performing less effectively in strategus, especially with the massively increased cost of horseflesh. Still, the removal of glance-rearing is very good for cav at the same time. You're not likely to have a pikeman that sees cavalry about to enter his asshole, turn 180 degrees and glance his 300 length weapon into the horse for a rear all in .5 seconds.

[Smoothrich]

You're not likely to have a pikeman that sees cavalry about to enter his asshole, turn 180 degrees and glance his 300 length weapon into the horse for a rear all in .5 seconds.

An excellent description of cavalry vs. pike gameplay in the Warband cRPG Engine. Considering that's core to the game I doubt it will ever go away.

Also for any "realism" talk going on here, you know a large draft/war horse could weigh nearly the same as a small car, nearing 2000 pounds. They will snap the fuck out of any spear or pike (and the pikeman's arms surely) unless they are braced in the ground before impact, and that horse body is going dozens of people deep into a formation, dead or alive. This was actually reported as happening in a Napoleonic war battle, where a skewered horse collapsed one of those nerdy pike-squares and let the rest of the cav own everyone.

Also if armor in this game was modeled at all as far as angles and penetration is considered, a spear-tip is very, very likely to glance off a full speed horse with an armored breastplate, unless you hit them at a perfect angle. This and blocking arrows is the entire point of armor after all. Which this game doesn't reflect at all.  Now if cRPG/Warband could actually let players use skill by dodging their horse to force glances on otherwise lethal spear thrusts, that would add a lot of skill to the game, but oh well.

Thoughts on balance: lol who cares, good cav are gonna fucking own you whether you halfsword that HBS or not.

[San]

Poles got new sweetspots that restrict their length and how quickly you can deal damage. They don't rear with low damage/glance hits. That is more important that shortass poles rearing imo

This. I was unaware of this change until it was implemented, but from the looks of it, cav have a few more tricks against the longer, weaker polearms.

I think you should give it a week to sink in. This does make mindless charging a bit tougher from the looks of it, but rewards expert control of your horse.

[imisshotmail]

I didn't really read this thread but just so everyone knows, this is how it was originally in cRPG until a warband patch (not c-RPG) changed how rearing works. And literally nothing changed with it because if you got reared by such short polearms you were going to die easily to anything anyway, and nothing is going to change from bringing it back.